A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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And it will drive people who are disgusted with PvP in general away from the game. If people aren't PvPing in PvP zones, it's not because they don't see enough of it out on the streets. PvP in PvE zones will accomplish absolutely nothing other than irritating the hardcore non-PvPers.
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I've been a booster for a Flag system ever since returning from WoW where I was on a PvP optional server. Barring the occasional yay-hoo in the Barrens trying to bait me into a duel it never intruded on my gamplay until I wanted it to. A similarly well implimented system in CoH would greatly increase the vitality of the game for the majority of players.
I pity anyone so emotionally fragile they get the vapors and call for a fainting couch at the very thought of someone choosing to PvP in their vicinity.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And it will drive people who are disgusted with PvP in general away from the game. If people aren't PvPing in PvP zones, it's not because they don't see enough of it out on the streets. PvP in PvE zones will accomplish absolutely nothing other than irritating the hardcore non-PvPers.
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I've been a booster for a Flag system ever since returning from WoW where I was on a PvP optional server. Barring the occasional yay-hoo in the Barrens trying to bait me into a duel it never intruded on my gamplay until I wanted it to. A similarly well implimented system in CoH would greatly increase the vitality of the game for the majority of players.
I pity anyone so emotionally fragile they get the vapors and call for a fainting couch at the very thought of someone choosing to PvP in their vicinity.
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They should not, and I doubt they will, implement PvP into PvP zones. Leave PvP in the PvP zones.
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I'd say that the onus is on those who want to defend PvP zones as a free-fire experience to explain why continuing to use a mechanic that is failing is better than implementing something else. If someone could make a compelling case for how a flagging system would make PvP less appealing to the whole of the COX population, I'd be glad to hear it. But seeing as how that system is already in place, and not doing very well, it's hard to imagine what someone would have to construct to make a viable argument out of it.
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What he said (the referenced post in toto).
*stands back and watches Folonius run with the ball.*
EDIT: Said in reference to the last few pages, not the fumble immediately above 
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They should not, and I doubt they will, implement PvP into PvP zones. Leave PvP in the PvP zones.
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Brilliant!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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btw, an idea to tack on to this
I think that a PvP respec recipe should be buyable via "merit-alikes"
make cost a lot or whatever but it usually takes a few drafts of a build for newcomers to find the perfect fit
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Whoah! 
While writing the original post it occurred to me that if new people did start moving into the PVP zones, there's going to be a lot of people making new mistakes. New players don't have that many respecs and old-timers (those with the most inf in IO builds) have often used most of theirs. I *tried* to come up with a fair way to give extra access to respecs for PVP and couldn't find one.
This is an excellent idea.
Someone might argue that if someone really needed the respec, they wouldn't have the merits to purchase it. But as I said in the original post, merit-alikes should be gainable from all PVP: zone, Arena, and Gladiator Arena. There are ways to find a challenge to suit your current abilities.
Speaking of that last, if you are looking for a system in which all players are set to the same potential for PVP, it already exists in the form of Gladiators.
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And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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You do realize, of course, that you can turn off broadcast.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Regardless of aught else, I am and remain both steadfastly and vehemently opposed to any "FLAG" mechanic which would allow people in a putatively PvP zone, to be immune to each other's attacks simply by electing not to be "flagged" for PvP.
The flag exists in a form it should remain in: entering the zone in the first place.
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And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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You do realize, of course, that you can turn off broadcast.
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DO NOT BE SO DENSE
THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
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And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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You do realize, of course, that you can turn off broadcast.
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But the argument, and it's a valid one, can be made, "Why should I have to turn off broadcast, and potentially miss out on information I want/need to hear, because some people choose to be jerks?"
Personally, I rarely even look at my chat box, much less look to see what's being said in there. I do know, however, information like what GMs are up, calls for LFM/LFG, and other non-garbage information is...well...broadcast there.
People are jerks in PvE zones so what's the difference? Again, all I am hearing from quite a few veterans of the boards is that PvEers have no business in PvP, well there is the root of the problem. How long do we really expect PvP to survive with this attitude? Sooner or later the Devs are going to realize that the population of PvP isn't enough to support it and it will be allowed to slip into the wayside. All I am hearing is "Leave my PvP alone!" or "If you don't like PvP well don't enter the zone!" The point is to GET people interested in PvP! And to Tal-N I ask, what does that same Scrapper do when he has to chase down a flying NPC? Exactly! I think everyone need to do a little more reflecting on the topic and take a second look at the real motivators of their objections.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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People are jerks in PvE zones so what's the difference? [1] Again, all I am hearing from quite a few veterans of the boards is that PvEers have no business in PvP, well there is the root of the problem. How long do we really expect PvP to survive with this attitude? [2] Sooner or later the Devs are going to realize that the population of PvP isn't enough to support it and it will be allowed to slip into the wayside. All I am hearing is "Leave my PvP alone!" or "If you don't like PvP well don't enter the zone!" [3] The point is to GET people interested in PvP! [4] And to Tal-N I ask, what does that same Scrapper do when he has to chase down a flying NPC? Exactly! I think everyone need to do a little more reflecting on the topic and take a second look at the real motivators of their objections.
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[1] /shrug. Ask someone who's bothered by the assinine broadcast chat in PVP zones.
[2] I think it's reasonable to assume that, at best, most "anti" PVP players don't care if PVP survives. Others are apathetic. I suspect relatively few people who don't PVP are activly concerned with PVP's survivability.
[3] That's actually a pretty reasonable attitude. For example in SW:G, if you didn't want to be hunted by BH's, you shouldn't play a Jedi.
Reminds me of that old Groucho Marx joke. Groucho is a doctor and a guy comes into his office saying "Doc, Doc, it hurts when I do this." Groucho's reply is "Then don't do that".
[4] Honestly speaking, good luck with that. I don't think it's going to happen. With the exception of Shadowbane and DAoC, in every MMO I've played, PVP is the minority. The difference being, SB and DAoC were designed from the ground up to be PVP+.
But the question remains, why should a player, in a PVE zone, have to inconvenience himself because of the poor behavior of others?
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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Unfortunately, it's exactly these type of people that are a large part of the problem.
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And? If someone doesn't want to PvP, that's their choice. Get over it. Let them do what they want and you do what you want. I have no interest in PvP. I don't need incentives dangled in front of me, it won't make any difference. I don't need it waved in front of my face, that will only annoy me. And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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I'll assume your defensive tone means you don't get my point.
It's only "waved in front of your face" if you want it to be. That is my point. Nobody needs Shivans. Nobody needs badges. Nobody needs Warburg nukes. You don't ever have to engage in PvP of any kind ever in order to keep on enjoying the game as is. It's always been this way and will likely never change. Unfortunately, there are some very outspoken "PvErs" that hate this and go out of their way to rant and complain... and often go to PvP zones often times initiating the Broadcast obscenities... even though they could easily avoid it entirely if they chose to.
Unless you're a villain looking for a couple accolades, but that doesn't actually even require any PvP.
The OP's suggestions don't change any of this. You still don't have to go into these zones (or the Arena) ever, for any reason. None of these suggestions "wave PvP in front of your face."
The PvP experience could be improved for those that do enjoy it, while those that abhor it can continue on with business as usual.
If anything, they make it easier for Villains to get their accolades by not subjecting them to surprised ganks when they go for that exploration badge.
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And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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You do realize, of course, that you can turn off broadcast.
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But the argument, and it's a valid one, can be made, "Why should I have to turn off broadcast, and potentially miss out on information I want/need to hear, because some people choose to be jerks?"
Personally, I rarely even look at my chat box, much less look to see what's being said in there. I do know, however, information like what GMs are up, calls for LFM/LFG, and other non-garbage information is...well...broadcast there.
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People are jerks in PvE zones so what's the difference?
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Pretty much. I've been PvP'ing since it came out, and I've been in the game since just after launch. I have seen more people be disrespectful, rude, or outright ban worthy in Live zone /b than in PvP Zone /b. Not to say the attitudes don't exist in the PvP zones or /ac, because they do. But it's no more difficult to deal with in SC than it is in PI.
If someone is bothering you in /b you can shut down /b or ignore the person in question. Problem solved.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Post deleted by Ex Libris
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From the original post:
The mini-game for RV is a bit different from all the others since it directly effects the zone itself and the entire zone is tallied for a win or loss. Therefore, there really is no PVE element to it. Anyone in PVE mode should be rendered incapable of targeting and attacking the pillboxes or npcs (say that they are subtly out of phase with the temporal locus the anchors and PVPers are at or something ). PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything.
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See, the bold part is where the problem is still: The devs do not want a way to collect badges without any risk involved. Oh sure you could collect explorations on your 50, but you could also do that at level 1.
Here's why though: Patch notes, Issue 5
The devs have stated that they don't want people to be able to go in at any level, where mobs con purple or something and be able to get badges. To me, this says that badges definately ARE important to the devs.
I had a disccusion with Dr_Discomfort about this issue. He was saying it was all PvP's fault that Phase shift got nerfed. Then he brought up a direct quote from Posi. He stated that it was a nerf for both PvP and PvE. 1st you had people tanking hamadon, thus earning Hami-os with little risk. 2nd you had people phasing and getting badges at very low or minimal levels.
How is that different then invis? Some mobs have +perception so they'd still be able to see you. Snipers for example.
3rd. PvP arena, people just phase after getting 1 point and that's game over. Although riddle me this... Badges are permanent and grant accolades, Hamadon gives hami-os, and arena matches give no reward. To me it seems that the first 2 were very important to the devs.
Therefore people being able to enter the zones and unable to be attacked in any way, players or mobs, and collect badges leaves a sour taste in the devs you know what.
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As I go into here, the only "upgraded PVE danger" a PVPer might face is a Shivan EB. These can be dealt with in the same fashion that one deals with an abandoned Christmas Present spawn and are localized to six known locations that actually appear on the map.
The only npcs a PVE player might interfere with would be the faction-aligned spawns in Siren's Call. While putting Fortitude on a Longbow Flamethrower or rocking-the-aura for a Tarantual Mistress might fall under the category of "annoying", it isn't game breaking or something that prevents a play element. The spawns are unlikely to be that dangerous to a PVP team in the first place, they are again localized to specific spots and any PVP-build worth its salt has un-supressable travel, the hotspots and "control of Siren's Call" would no longer gate access to the currently un-bought-and-unused reward temps with implementation of merit-alikes, and at the current time the hotspots already serve merely as map locations to let PVPers know "where the fight is". I actually see people more often fighting near the oil rigs.
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Waitaminute... didn't you just say they can't attack anything if they're in pve mode? You said,"PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything."
How are they going to participate in this if they can't attack?
This brings me straight back to what I said earlier. If they were somehow able to interact with ONLY npc mobs in a pvp zone, how are they somehow not able to interact with pvpers?
But if people who, as you've suggested, might want to pvp, can somehow NOW attack npc only mobs, why should they even care about pvp? They've got their rewards, and no players can bother them.
I ask you who read this... those who do not pvp or do not like it. If you were given the option as the OP has suggested, as to getting the benefits of the pvp zone without ever having to engage in pvp, or other players bothering you... would it make you care for pvp?
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The expression of charity in the above statement also might be seen as admirable, but the specific players in quiestion might also see it as interference.
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Maybe if you're really, really anti-social. I can't remember the last time I didn't say thank you to someone who came along and saved my behind while getting overwhelmed, saving me a trip to the hospital or debt.
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Furthermore, that type of situation is an edge case. It's not terribly often I run into a character in a regular zone that is in over their head, rarer that I'm in a position to do something about it in time, and rarer still that assistance is wanted.
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I can't speak for others. I can say for myself I do that all the time in both PvP and PvE. Appreciated or not. I won't hesitate to save someone I see in trouble, in whatever way I can.
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From the original post:
A potential criticism of this idea I've heard before is "PVP is for PVP zones and PVE is for PVE zones; leave PVP for PVP". This mental segregation is foolish. Beyond the fact that there is already nominal reason for PVEers to enter for badges and such, all the PVPers already PVP. It is the PVEers that would need to be courted to find something appealing in PVP for it to flourish. That will only happen with more (and better) exposure. This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try. The only standpoint from which this is a bad thing is the opinion that PVEers are drawn into PVP zones to be the rightful prey of dedicated PVPers. Strangely, "you are there for my enjoyment" is rarely an attractive argument for people 
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While it might have happened, I consider it unlikely that many people heard that there were badges in CoX and bought the game. Yet badging is a thriving, active subcommunity in the game. Some leapt at it when they got their first shiney, some after they had acquired a substantial collection by osmosis, some after they had tired of other activities in the game. Regardless it was always there for them to pick up (or not) as their interest and mood dictated at the time. They were not given an option of looking at it once and deciding on the spot, in that one mindset of the moment, whether they wanted to 'be a badger' or not.
If PVP is going to draw casual players, it needs to be something people can eye, poke at, leave where it is, and come back to some other time. "One tour and then get out if you aren't a true PVPer" is barely better, if not actively worse, than today's model for the PVP zones.
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Allright badge hunter goes in, gets all exploration easy, does a patrol mission for that badge, does a pvp mission for that badge, run out of the zone and he's done. He never has to go there again. He'll farm rep with his friends for the 400rep badge. For some that wouldn't sound bad at all.
For new players, you say it's about first impressions? Some people go in, and get beat and never come back? Well they'd go in, watch and decide. The contacts should explain this too. It couldn't possibly be 'worse'.
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But far more importantly, removing the flagging concept removes the ability of the zones to be used for PVE story arcs.
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So they're PvE story arcs now are they? Didn't you say: "The mini-game for RV is a bit different from all the others since it directly effects the zone itself and the entire zone is tallied for a win or loss. Therefore, there really is no PVE element to it."
I had no idea Lord Recluse was being played by a Dev the entire time. I don't honestly remember him saying," I'm using temporal anchors to try and take over the world. It's your job to beat 4 turrets on top, but leave the hero players alone, cause they're in pve mode, even though they're trying to stop me from taking over the world."
Zones have always been a hybrid of both pvp and pve elements. This would not work out storyline wise.
Bloody bay: Longbow and arachnos are searching for the source of the shivians. Both will use it to a great advantage, in one stopping the other. So go out and get those shards for great power... only dont' hurt each other cause they're in pve mode.
Siren's call: Lord recluse is trying to gain a foothold in invading paragon city. It's up to the heroes to stop him, only don't attack the villains because they're in pve mode.
Warburg: Nukes are a very dangerous piece of equipment. Hero or villain. Trust NO ONE... but also don't hurt anyone becuase they're in pve mode.
It really is, just that silly, when you think about it. The pvp zones all have a story behind it, and why it's a pvp zone. It was the players that made it a lot more then just that.
And here's why: Raise your hand if you hate doing Frostfire missions. *raises hand*
It's probably because you've done it tons of times already and are sick of it. It never changes. Ever. That is the nature of PvE.
Now, what if the developers said," We've redone frostfire. His building is different, his powers are different, and he spawns not just in low level missions, but high level ones... and he's a part of a task force."
You can bet people would be all over that. Now, the same thing about pvp zones. Once you've done the events... well for most the 'shiny' effect goes away, and things go back to normal.
Again, Sirens call. People have done the hotspots, which IS the storyline. Then after a while they just don't do it anymore, via pvp interuption or bordeom. So because no one is that much interested in it, people turn to the alternative. PvP. People tend to forget that it was intended for both.
So now you have people saying Sirens is for PvP only! Not true at all. All the zones are part of the ongoing battle of longbow and arachnos. You are either the hero or villain who aids them by taking out both mobs and players.
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Traffic to the zones would not increase and the financial rationale for implementing build switching would disappear. If there is no traffic increase and no reduction in the entry barrier, there is no incentive for coding a system of grouping opposing PVP teams in weighted fashion. If neither of those are there, there's no point in making a reward system for a game element that will structurally and culturally keep itself from growing.
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So doing all what you said would work? All it would do is get people doing more PvE in a PvP zone, with no actual PvP going on. Sure they'll be in the zone... but if this flagging goes on, they're not PvPing, thus keeping the numbers stagnent.
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Now what about the whole hero and villain thing? What if 2 people are both in the zone and PvEing... and are stealing each other's mobs?
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This is basic killstealing and already exists in the game. What's more, I've already encountered it hero-vs-villain (we did not attack each other at all) in the BB salvage yards.
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Actually my point was that there's nothing they can do about it. They can't say," Hey we're both hunting, let's team."
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But those are my reason PvP flaging wouldn't be a good idea. I'm seeing a lot of ways to exploit the system. Plus as many problems as it might solve, there will be others that crop up.
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The above criticisms either can't happen or are edge cases. Since it gives a chance of revitalizing PVP, avoiding it for unspecified-yet-inevitable future problems is not a sound argument.
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I did specify. I said heal/buffing with no risk. Not being able to aid allies, and Dual boxing safely. In this post I mention badge hunting(although I'm confused on what you mean on flagging now, you said no attacking then you said only attacking NPCs).
And now about your 'higher level spawns for PvE' thing... Lemme give you a scenario:
Dual boxing tanker. Gets on with Granite armor. Goes in to WB, and taunts up some Elite bosses... since that's what you mention.
Well you say pvpers don't generate argo or drawdistance like he does. Well people come in on pvp mode, he puts taunt on auto, PLUS the fact that the npc prefers to attack him... So all he's doing is taunting, and then the pvp mode 'villains' come in, and just waste the EB with no danger at all... to the Hero either.
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The idea around it is you can choose which other players to interact with *period*. Whether they belonged to your faction or not. So again what you describe is not going to happen unless it is as a massive load of buffs right before a challenge is accepted. In that case I doubt the same player would accept challenge a second time (which is also the point).
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That's reasonable.
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If you are fighting in a location where you are taking fire from your opponent *and* npcs: move.
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Ironically I usually tell people who badge hunt the same thing when they get attacked by a player
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Here's my suggestion to this instead:
Allow challange mode to be setup the same way, but WITH being able to be interfered with by the outside. You see the challangers as conning RED as if you were taunted.
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Outside players will see you conned as a lighter color of orange or blue. If the challangers are hit with outside interference, via NPC or healing, the challange is temporarly dropped for 20 seconds... thus giving them time to either move away or just drop it alltogether.
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Rather than fixing a problem that doesn't exist, this actually creates the problem it purports to address.
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I still think the red con, light blue, light orange con would work as indicators.
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Merit System
I like it. This is something we've asked for, for a long time now. But I would make 1 suggestion to this...
Most of the items listed here aren't used much for pvp. I would say add in the option for a LOT of rep to get a random generic IO (at their level), or a random pool C IO.
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The idea for the merit-alikes is that they are free to be given without distoring the market (or any other part of the game). What you describe would have to be set so ludicrously high in cost to prevent it being conceivably earned by "cheating" that it would both be pointless in code-execution and come to be seen as an insult by those it was meant to entice.
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I'm not seeing why. It it so much harder to get a pool C IO from defeating 20 white con minions then it is from perhaps 20 defeated players... also factoring in the wait time before rep points are available, AND the team split of rep points?
Like say, you need 20 or 30 rep points for a random Generic IO, which is the same as if you had defeated a minion.
50 or 60 rep for a random Pool C IO?
These are much harder to get then say, just regular PvE alone. Honestly, just run through 1 mission, defeating everything. You can finish it in what... 5-20 minutes solo? Solo in a PvP zone, can you gain 20 or higher rep in 5-20 minutes? WITH the recharge timer on reputaion?
Come on... You could be running missions and have tons more IO and Set stuff then pvping. It's not stepping on anyone's toes... it's offering a reward for participating in pvp.
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Mutual Support
On the face of it, adding a seperate PVP power build for characters sounds complex, but the effort can be rationalized as work towards new PVE play options. (The Ouroboros system would ensure such content was on offer to all existing characters as well.) Allowing groups of opposite factions to merge into a "team" in which opposite faction members may attack one another but no one else might also be complicated. Or it might simply be an expansion of the existing grouping mechanics of the game and the Ouroboros limits already exist. The Merit system is proven and popular in the game already. Regardless of their difficulty or ease, in order to work all of them would have to be present at the same time. PVE to PVP build toggling is useless if no one wants to enter the zone because of ubiquitous and unavoidable bad behavior. A dueling system that lets you avoid encounters with players found unpleasant and compete with those you choose to is useless if the entry barrier competition still limits participants to those with a dedicated PVP build. Neither has any lasting appeal unless there is a reward that can be shaped to be whatever a given player might find interesting. All would have to be implemented together to allow their complements to work.
It's not about "I want as much as he got". It's about expanding the game, leaving the play elements PVPers currently enjoy*, preventing the situations that drive people from the zones right now, and giving people freedom to examine-take-or-leave PVP casually.
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We're not asking for "We want as much as he got". We want attention. I think the "I want as much as he got." debate is best saved for those with tin-foil hats debating why COH > COV or vice verca. 
Former King of PWNZ
Franziska Von Karma says you will listen to every word I say.
I don't think that using a "flag" type method is going to make PVP anymore attractive to the everyday PVE'r. As stated before by another poster - someone who decides to "flag" themselves as no PVP contact will just enter the zone get what they want and leave. However it was suggested that they may want to "flag" themselves to ask questions and watch matches to see if it is something they may want to try.. A solution for this so the PVP zones don't get over populated with these "flaggers" just coming into the zone to farm or what not is to allow them to enter the zone as observers only, kind of like the observer camera you find in the arena.. PVP'rs are the only ones that should get the benefits of a PVP zone because they are willing to take the risk and put themselves out there in a competitive state and do not complain about the outcome. I am an avid PVP'r and I play a Rad/Rad Defender. PVP makes me mad as hell sometimes, but I love it! I've been in the PVP zones since day 1, it's not for the fluffy type players.. There is trash talk, bragging rights, nemesis hero/villains, ganks, and more often than not, if a player gets pwn by another player - the most common exchange of words is "good-fight" or "gf" for short. I, like other hardcore PVPr's would like to see more people in PVP, there is no doubt about that. It needs to be done in a fashion that doesn't give players the impression that when they enter a PVP zone it's going to be like skipping through a field of daisies and seeing brutes, tanks, scrappers, stalkers and others sitting around singing campfire songs letting you go on your merry little way. The very essence of PVP must stay in contact. This would be the competitive nature of the zone.
Post deleted by Ex Libris
The vernacular term is "straw-manning"; the construction of a fallacious argument, imputing it to an opponent, then attacking the argument.
Usually it's done deliberately as a type of debate character-assassination. Here and in the post before I believe it's unintentional. Never the less, the concepts you are criticizing are so twisted as to be nigh unrecognizable.
You referenced the example of Taunt I mentioned in my reply to Bionic_Flea, so you did look at that. But for that post and the Original one it seems like you are arguing against something composed of every third sentence. You talk about 'Elite Bosses in Warburg' when the only one's I ever mentioned were specifically Shivan Decimators (something you actually quote in your post). You conflate instanced PVE story arcs with external zone mini-games. You repeatedly express confusion.
I've already done due diligence by responding in full to one of these and pointing out where you hadn't seen or at least not understood. This is yet another tangle that has nothing to do with the actual concepts I raised. Furthermore:
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I had no idea Lord Recluse was being played by a Dev the entire time. I don't honestly remember him saying," I'm using temporal anchors to try and take over the world. It's your job to beat 4 turrets on top, but leave the hero players alone, cause they're in pve mode, even though they're trying to stop me from taking over the world."
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You're beginning to snark. Snark directed at you for an opinion you've expressed is annoying. Snark directed at you for something someone else made up is just tiresome.
I was already tired beforehand so I'm only going to directly respond to a piece of this for illustration...
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As I go into here, the only "upgraded PVE danger" a PVPer might face is a Shivan EB. These can be dealt with in the same fashion that one deals with an abandoned Christmas Present spawn and are localized to six known locations that actually appear on the map.
The only npcs a PVE player might interfere with would be the faction-aligned spawns in Siren's Call. While putting Fortitude on a Longbow Flamethrower or rocking-the-aura for a Tarantual Mistress might fall under the category of "annoying", it isn't game breaking or something that prevents a play element. The spawns are unlikely to be that dangerous to a PVP team in the first place, they are again localized to specific spots and any PVP-build worth its salt has un-supressable travel, the hotspots and "control of Siren's Call" would no longer gate access to the currently un-bought-and-unused reward temps with implementation of merit-alikes, and at the current time the hotspots already serve merely as map locations to let PVPers know "where the fight is". I actually see people more often fighting near the oil rigs.
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Waitaminute... didn't you just say they can't attack anything if they're in pve mode? You said,"PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything."
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I certainly did. The two sentences prior to that one establish that the one you have quoted is a special case and only applies to Recluse's Victory. It does not reference Siren's Call whatsoever.
There are so many sentences that are mix-and-matches of things from completely unrelated segments of the report it would be pointless to go through them all. I am not going to respond to another one of these even in token fashion.
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And to Tal-N I ask, what does that same Scrapper do when he has to chase down a flying NPC?
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Flying NPCs can be brought down through patience and sometimes tactics, because the developers know that not all heroes and villains have the ability to fly you will notice that flying NPCs are somewhat rare in the game as a result. When NPCs do fly away they will inherantly return to their ground based spawn point if left alone plus you are able to duck out of LoS to cause the NPC to follow you at which point they usually return to ground level.
You point is moot however, we're dealing with PvP here and ways to keep it enjoyable. An NPC might have a tactical advantage over a ground based melee character but has no sense of survival, no sense of enjoyment and in many cases does not need to be defeated by the player to advance through the game. In PvP all of these things are different, there is no fun in fighting a fight you have no chance in losing and there is also no fun in a fight you have no chance of winning. Enjoyment comes in PvP from the fight, the to and fore between two players fighting for victory. If this doesn't happen the enjoyment of the game is greatly reduced.
The solution to have a PvP spec character isn't going to help because it's the ATs which provide the problem, the fact that the devs have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole now is self evident. They've had to make special rules for status effects, changes to how blaster damage functions, endurance drain is tweaked, invisibility has to be restricted to name but a few special conditions which change how certain ATs function. The thing is though that despite all of these changes it's possible to go into a PvP situational casually and run up against players you have utterly no chance of defeating or can defeat with utter discrimination not because of how skilled you or they are but because their AT and build has weaknesses which happen to be your strengths.
That's broken and can't be easily fixed.
Example:
A regen brute, has fury to help with extended fights. So a blaster comes down with frontloaded damage and obliterates him in 2-3 hits before the brute can even get a hit off. Now only the most pathetic of players will get any enjoyment from doing this again and again when that regen brute has almost no chance of countering that kind of attack. And you can be sure the brute is getting more and more frustrated at having to sit back as hospital waiting for Rest to recharge or his health to return normally.
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Upon being invited to a challenge and accepting, both members would switch to a flagging scheme such that they could only attack one another. No one else could attack them and they could not attack anyone else. (I do not know if this is possible with existing tech.) If the challenger or challenged is a team leader, then all of their team would enter the challenge on their side.
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On re-reading HB's post, I think this part is unworkable because it's too easy to exploit. Arrange to meet a buddy in PVP, then work out a scheme for one character or the other to earn the merits or whatever other benefits are in the zone.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Upon being invited to a challenge and accepting, both members would switch to a flagging scheme such that they could only attack one another. No one else could attack them and they could not attack anyone else. (I do not know if this is possible with existing tech.) If the challenger or challenged is a team leader, then all of their team would enter the challenge on their side.
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On re-reading HB's post, I think this part is unworkable because it's too easy to exploit. Arrange to meet a buddy in PVP, then work out a scheme for one character or the other to earn the merits or whatever other benefits are in the zone.
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There will always, repeat always, be people that can find workarounds to any given situation. As with nerfs to missions of Pl'rs and min/maxers, the point is to make something that appeals - or works - for the 95% of your target audience and not worry about the 5% that will find the "leet" way to max benefit from it.
I personally like the way LoTR has it - form what i understand you get access to a "50" pvp build/toon even if you're not a 50 and rock with it. Since i've heard the manta "no risk no reward" ad infintium regarding changes im assuming that this isnt a option - but it is interesting if it could be implemented here. Go to warburg - try out a stalker. Go to RV - how's that ice/eng workin for you playstyle wise? I can already hear the hew and cry that ppl that have worked months on their toon are bioeng slighted, and i can see kinda that point. But again we are looking at the greater audience here and game survivablity. Failing that i like the build switching idea pvp vs pve.
I personally hate pvp as it is now - but i have had good times there. These changes would increase interest in the pvp aspect - i'd still like to see some sort of change that makes the fights longer. Most complaint is that its tp/gank or 2 hit wonders dominating the field and thats the main reson ppl i know dont go - its simply not fun to be the repeated lamb unless you have the pvp leet build - even if you are in a team. Ask any emp controller bout that! :P
*nerf* Darn! Oh well.. I will just have to rebuild. Ah.. this works *nerf*
Darn it.. well I will rebuild again.. oh this might *nerf*
Grr.. this is getting annoying.. rebuild agai- *nerf*
I wasn't even finished rebuilding the las- *nerf* But.. *nerf* I *nerf* ......*nerf* *nerf* *nerf*
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If you don't want to PvP, then don't. But the OPs solution fixes many of the current problems, will keep a heavy portion of people who already PvP, and will attract others who are curious about PvP, the zones, and RP. So regardless if they are going to PvP in the zones or PvE or whatever, there will actually be more people in the zones.
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And it will drive people who are disgusted with PvP in general away from the game. If people aren't PvPing in PvP zones, it's not because they don't see enough of it out on the streets. PvP in PvE zones will accomplish absolutely nothing other than irritating the hardcore non-PvPers.
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What are you talking about? Read the post and then start critizing. Nowhere in the OP's post does he mention PvP in a PvE zone.