A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Nope. I read a well thought-out post, contianing a lot of creative ideas ... one of which is one I think should never, under any circumstances, happen: being PvP-immune in a PvP zone. In response to that - as I do any time the idea is brought up, no matter by who - I popped out that standard response.
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The problem is, the position you support, isn't working. To dismiss flagging out of hand because you believe in some absolutist vision of what PvP zones should be maybe does more harm to the cause of PvP in this game than the harm you think would be done by having a flagging system in place.
The problem was present as one where the there is obviously concern for the viability of PvP in the game, at least in getting new resources allocated to it. By giving PvE value to everything you do to the PvP zone you make those decisions much easier to make about where to invest Developer time.
If the canned response worked in this case, there would be no need for the discussion in the first place, the fact is, what is there now isn't working.
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Fess up; you made an assumption about the post before you even did more than glance at it.
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Nope. I read a well thought-out post, contianing a lot of creative ideas ... one of which is one I think should never, under any circumstances, happen: being PvP-immune in a PvP zone. In response to that - as I do any time the idea is brought up, no matter by who - I popped out that standard response.
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I think you'd have been better off amending your 'standard response" so it actually makes sense in context.
You're usually a lot smarter about your posts, Pax. I mean that as a compliment, really, even though I disagree with you most of the time. However, I can't help but think you didn't fully comprehend the point and reason for the suggestion. Simply passing it off as a "STUPID IDEA" just makes you come off as a little kid with his fingers in his ears screaming "Can't hear you!!"
Your cut/paste standard response just isn't cutting it one this one. Not to mention the complete irrelevance most of it had.
Gata_ wrote:
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The only large hurdle besides some of the technicle limitations are RP limitations. I mean what RP can you use to explain why someone with thier PvP flag down can't be attacked, or why if they are locked into a Challenge why they can't be attacked by the non challegne PvPers. Maybe youcan use the desynchronized time/space shift thing you mentioned in the RV.
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andAnd EmperorSteele wrote:
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And while i wouldn't argue at ALL if these changes were made... well, i do have some... thematic reservations about the overall concept of what you propose.
Good guys and Bad guys FIGHT each other. It's how it is.
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Players with different flag settings in PVP zones wouldn't attack each other for the same reason Venom doesn't go out of his way to attack Captain America: He's not Spiderman 
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All heroes and villains have an agenda and things they Need To Do(TM). Those may be more important than pummeling a random member of the opposite faction. While a worthy cause, you're out looking for that One Guy. You know, that One Guy? So you ignore everything and everyone else and focus with superhuman will upon the Task At Hand (like collecting Magic Salvage ). People of opposite factions may have their own agendas too and will follow them even though they would just as soon attack you. Or maybe they just see that look in your eye. You know, that look? And they don't want to end up being That One Guy 
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Also, let's not forget Stalkers, even though I'm sure we'd all like to (except, well, the dedicated Stalkers). There's NO POINT to playing one if you have to ask someone to accept your challenge. No one in their right mind, except maybe a built-up stalker-killer, would accept.
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From what I was hearing on Test twenty minutes ago, nobody's going to be forgetting Stalkers any time soon.
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The whole point of Stalkers is to sneak up on someone, deliver a crushing blow, finish them off and slip away. Asking permission to do that isn't part of the job description.
I mean, think of it like this: Stalker asks you to duel. You say yes. You get TP Foe'd, AS'd, stunned, and killed. Okay, deflag.
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That's scenario one, in which case you didn't have fun and the Stalker is out one playmate.
Scenario two is: "Let's try that again..." Orange Insp. Yellow Insp. Breakfree. "Okay GO."
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Stalkers would run out of victims reeaal quick, and they would lose all purpose for existing in the game
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As solo Gank-guns they would likely have less utility from fewer targets. On a PVP team they can still show up suddenly with a devastating flank attack.
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(because, apparently, the attitude towards stalkers in PvE is... well, "lawl stalkers". Not that they're not effective, but slow soloers (hide, kill, RUN... hide, kill.. RUN!), and no one wants to team with them.
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Seriously, not that big an issue any more I'm thinking. Ever fought a Pylon in a Rikti Ship Raid? Yeah. On Test Stalkers are soloing them. YEAH.
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The PvP-spec idea is nice... however, they would need to add stores to the PvP zones or something, because my ideal PvP build would tend to take different powers and even POOLS than my PvE one... and I'd need new enhancements.
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.........[XXXXX]._._._._.<.<...
*drags in a completely separate wish list item, nails it into place, and pretends it was there all along*
....................[XXXXX] ^.^...
A store would just be too complicated. I don't want to have to sort through SOs and DOs for all origins from 15-50, do you? And having the Market have outlets in PVP zones is silly.
But !
If characters had personal Enh storage to go along with personal salvage storage, you could then put access to that in the PVP zones as well. Vault Reserve Inc would be silly to put in, but the Daleks would fit right in and look fine. Then you could put, say, ten extra enh in storage along with what you have in your tray. Go to BB, enter PVP mode, slot the enh, go to the Dalek and get the other ten to slot them as well. You also have Salvage to hand, so if you've got a stack of recipies in your tray you could have someone drop the portable crafting table and build enh on the spot. See! Perfect rationale for personal enh storage.
<.<
>.>
What?
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Unless you mentioned this and i skipped over it. The only "problem" with this, again, is thematics. Why/how should/would/could my Mind/Kin/Fly/Fit/Psi
suddenly become Mind/Kin/Leadership/Fit/Primal because she stepped into a new zone?
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Firstly, superheroes are always manifesting some new variant of their powers or some new MacGuffin ability. Longshot: "I can Object Read and tell the history of things that I touch". You can WHAT? Since WHEN?
Secondly, you only use aspects of your powers, or focus your abilities in certain ways when they are pertinent. You're not flying anymore because you need to stay near the fight. Since you are up against real Super Villains instead of street thugs you have to really pay attention to teamwork and exercise some Leadership. For the same reason, your kid-glove Psi powers that you use to disable angry young toughs will have to be left aside in favor of your harder hitting Telekinetic talents. If you're moving faster, perhaps even at Super Speed, it's because you are tightly channeling the Kinetic Energy of your powers into greater velocity; something you don't normaly do because it's -exhausting- (gives you a splitting headache hours later too!) And that medscanner? Well they gave you that when you came in...of course you have to give it back 
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They've already done the "radioactive" thing heroside and the "magic" thing villain side. In this case you're not permanently changing yourself. You're just using different talents or the same abilities in different ways for a different set of circumstances. Then later you go back to doing other things.
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Basically, I was thinking the game should force buffs and debuffs to even things out while encouraging fair sportsman-like play. But again, you'd hear no argument from me if your ideas were actually integrated.
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Specific temporary nerfs or buffs I'd want to wait and see how things settled out with the system before implementing. I'm a big believer in empirical data.
Great post!
You hit all of the points and more on why I don't enter PvP zones anymore. I've been chatting with friends, off and on for awhile now, about what could be done to possibly get more use out of those zones and/or the PvP / PvE issue with them.
I'm glad you posted this because you're way more eloquent with how it's laid out and worded than I could have been.
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Merit System
...spendable merit-alikes can be earned from PVP along with ephemeral "rep", then a broader section of the game can have something to PVP for.
...The selection obviously wouldn't have to be limited to the Siren's Call temps either. Custom weapons and exclusive costume pieces could be offered. Off the top of my head: is there a Wrestler's Championship Belt or Luchadore Mask costume option already in the game?
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Not quite sure about the quoted part. Not everyone dislikes PVP solely because of CoX's PVP shortcomings but more of personal preference or bias against the playstyle.
Adding PVE usable rewards that can only be acquired by actual PVP matches might garner similar complaints that we get now with the current PVE usable rewards, even though getting those only require entering the zone and not fighting anyone. Either that or we'll see more of what you call "cheating" by taking falls just for the rewards.
PVP flagging would solve the complaints for the current rewards in those zones, but your merit system may create new ones.
Of course i can only be certain of my own actions and even with your suggestions, i'm anticipating i would use the PVP mode off flag to get the rewards i currently avoid and think about dual-boxing cheats for the merit rewards.
very well though out suggestion that would DEFFINALY revamp the pvp
experience, and positively I'd think.
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Merit System
...spendable merit-alikes can be earned from PVP along with ephemeral "rep", then a broader section of the game can have something to PVP for.
...The selection obviously wouldn't have to be limited to the Siren's Call temps either. Custom weapons and exclusive costume pieces could be offered. Off the top of my head: is there a Wrestler's Championship Belt or Luchadore Mask costume option already in the game?
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Not quite sure about the quoted part. Not everyone dislikes PVP solely because of CoX's PVP shortcomings but more of personal preference or bias against the playstyle.
Adding PVE usable rewards that can only be acquired by actual PVP matches might garner similar complaints that we get now with the current PVE usable rewards, even though getting those only require entering the zone and not fighting anyone. Either that or we'll see more of what you call "cheating" by taking falls just for the rewards.
PVP flagging would solve the complaints for the current rewards in those zones, but your merit system may create new ones.
Of course i can only be certain of my own actions and even with your suggestions, i'm anticipating i would use the PVP mode off flag to get the rewards i currently avoid and think about dual-boxing cheats for the merit rewards.
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I don't understand why people would complain about something like that.
If you want it, go get it. If you don't like it, don't do it. If it's too hard for you, do something "constructive" to fix it or just leave it.
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Fess up; you made an assumption about the post before you even did more than glance at it.
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Nope. I read a well thought-out post, contianing a lot of creative ideas ... one of which is one I think should never, under any circumstances, happen: being PvP-immune in a PvP zone. In response to that - as I do any time the idea is brought up, no matter by who - I popped out that standard response.
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Just because you've been around here long enough to have seen most everything doesn't mean that someone still won't occasionally surprise you.
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... was that ... a post-count or registration-date based attack? O_O For shame!
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I have to disagree with you Pax. I think it's a brilliant idea and it solves a bunch of problems with out creating new ones. If I read it correctly there will be no more PvP zones. There would instead be 4 more new PvE zones that players could flag themselves as available for PvP. The brilliant part is that for the PvP crowd nothing changes. The PvE crowd can now come in the door where they can be introduced to PvP at their own speed and with out the bad first experience that puts many players off of PvP permanently. Which is the perfect solution to increasing the population of the PvP zones and getting the word out and interest in that portion of the game dramatically increased.
The only people that lose are the "gank squads" that lie in wait for the poor pencil necked bespectacled badge hunter. Which is what puts lots of people off of PvP in the first place and you get a circular problem. From my perspective ganking the unprepared and uninitiated isn't PvP it's just an unjustifiable mugging.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I don't understand why people would complain about something like that.
If you want it, go get it. If you don't like it, don't do it. If it's too hard for you, do something "constructive" to fix it or just leave it.
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That specific offshoot of the discussion is a recurring one and ongoing in other threads.
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I don't understand why people would complain about something like that.
If you want it, go get it. If you don't like it, don't do it. If it's too hard for you, do something "constructive" to fix it or just leave it.
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That specific offshoot of the discussion is a recurring one and ongoing in other threads.
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k
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My only criticism comes from your proposed implementation of PvE mini games in the zones. How do you have stronger, more agressive, and greater numbers of NPCs only effect the PvE flagged and not the PvP flagged? I'm not stating that it can't be done, but it seems to me that it would be a very difficult thing to do. And if a PvP flag rendered you somehow immune or invsible to NPCs, the practical thing to do would be to turn on the PvP flag and go when the zone was empty to get those valuable temps with even less effort than now.
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With PVP-on and PVP-off status, the PVE difficulty of the zone *must* be increased because it had to be taken into account before that someone might be facing both a PVE threat and a PVP one at the same time during a mini-game. In fact this isn't so much making the mini-games harder as making them function at the difficulty they originally should have had but failed to achieve because of incorrectly predicted player activity.
As to how to actually do it, the only code I work with is DNA not Assembler so I'm grabbing functions I see in the game and putting them together with liberal amounts of supposition. But currently when you approach the BB meteors, there is a certain radius at which Shivan guards will spawn (two minions, one leutenant, and a boss). So conceptually, you create two trip-wire radiuses: A much larger outer one that detects PVE-flagged characters but ignores PVP-flagged ones and spawns EBs and bosses, and the current one that recognizes PVP-flagged characters but not PVE-flagged characters and spawns the weaker mobs we have now.
You could make it more difficult for someone to just spawn the EB + cohort and leave by setting its AI to remain near the rock (If Thomas The Tank tries to taunt it away it just stands where it is and lobs big green -Def bombs at him.) Also, if "attacking" the rock was set to over-ride aggro, one could taunt the EB while attacking it, but would lose that control if someone tried to gain a sample before it was down. Never the less, someone could come up with a clever way to get around those restrictions that I haven't thought of; I would also want to co-opt the Snow Monster code from the Gamester's presents. If you keep pestering the spawn it stays there, but if you leave and someone else shows up later, the spawn is auto-defeated and a new spawn (of appropriate type for your flag) is generated. That code would have to be set, if possible, to actually generate a new spawn rather than having the "window" between when the old one is auto-defeated and the new one is supposed to be generated but fails because the bodies are still there. So if you are a PVPer making a run and a PVE group has just given up in defeat, you can just go to another rock and come back to this one later.
A PVPer can't grief a PVE run because the spawn they generate is so tiny in comparisson to what the PVEers are combating in the first place. A PVEer can't grief a PVP run because any spawn they generate notices them from much farther out and starts firing on the ones who spawned them, not the PVPer who happens to actually be standing closer. Even so, having two groups at the same rock at the same time would actually be a happy event because right now they're pretty empty.
The rock guards are something that you fight all at once, but the pillboxes you essentially fight one at a time (even if in a team). Beyond which, their greater geographic displacement makes it harder to have them despawn and respawn with traffic. Therefore we could either co-opt the GM code to force their level to be higher for PVEers than PVPers or, as Reiraku suggest (in a far more elegant solution than myself ) simply have the zone set different auto-exempt levels for different flag types.
The Warburg settings are less complicated since they are just wandering outdoor spawns. I'm not sure whether or not the spawns need to be larger or tougher in Warburg (though I would like to see more of them in a few of the emptier streets) because....I've never had to fight the stupid things!! Which is the thing to change. The aggro radius or perception radius or something distance on those spawns is *tiny*. Instead they should have the perception distance and aggro hair-trigger of an AV. (Ever activated one and then tried to sneak up on it again? They see you a mile away.) Map spawns are packed fairly close together and you come upon them quickly around corners so their near-sightedness makes sense in game mechanic terms. Ones patrolling an open outdoor area are free to have much better detection abilities. The Rogue Arachnos should "Shoot on sight, shoot first, shoot to kill, and keep shooting." You should have to fight every spawn you see on the way to the drop-off point (think Mayhem mission with 4+ people). The Arachnoids are dangerous enough as they are, they just need to come packaged in standard Hazard Zone sized spawns with a leavening of smaller spawns for the preferentially sneaky-minded players. You might work this by giving PVPers a stealth buff that only works on the npcs or have the PVEers radiate a perception buff that applies only to them.
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Also relating to the minigames, my tank and scrapper can do either with ease, but my squishier characters (controller, defender, corrupter) have to be very careful and frequently die to arachnoids and shivans or have a hard time defeating the base turrets before a reset. Making them significantly harder might require that some ATs or builds need a team to get the temps (which might be a desireable goal). But it will certainly raise a loud cry from those who already find it difficult or who find that they can no longer succeed.
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Making it so that a team was required for a PVE run was my explicit intention. As I said, if I can solo it on my Brute it's still too easy. Considering the time and effort to reward ratio of nukes and shivans compared to much lesser temps and tools in the game, this corrects a distortion. Squishy characters that can't solo it right now...still won't be able to solo it, but might just find getting a team easier since the previously solo-capable characters now need a team as well.
I like being able to get nukes and Shivans at will too, but it makes a mockery of other game play elements and has for a long time.
As a side note, I find it odd that seemingly every character in the game keeps a Shivan Decimator EB in their pocket but I've never actually seen one as an enemy to fight in the game. I suspect people might have a leetle more respect for the Gummy Bear if they had it jump up and down on them and push their face into the debt.
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Wow... that pretty much covers all the bases. I hereby nominate Human Being as Official Forum Voice of Reason.
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from what I hear, its already pretty much of a given that you need a team to get nukes due to Stalkers camping the site,
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Not really. If you're on Freedom I'll show you. If the zone is quiet a nuke run is easier than a Shivan run and WB tends to be emptier than BB.
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[p.s. Some persons participating in this thread might want to make sure their PM-boxes are not full - its hard to reply to PMs if the recipient cannot accept any more PMs *clears throat* 
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What, again? *sigh* Try it now and send again.
I'd like to say Thank You to everyone who has offered compliments on the original posts. To thank everyone individually would spam the thread but I really do appreciate every one.
I agree with some of those changes, but the possibility of a PVE player griefing PVP players by spawning EB's and leaving them there(Bloody Bay) makes for potential havok.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
I have to thank HB for cluing me in on his post. For all the innovations CoX has made in the MMO world, when it came to PvP, they used the same old mechanics with the addition of creative window dressing. The savagery and mean-spiritedness was left to fester in these zones until they were so bad that they could be compared to the PvP servers of WoW. I've been around here a long time and rarely have I seen a post that summed up the feelings of so many as this one.
There are those so tethered to the standard concepts of PvP that any change is met with resentment or a sense of intrusion upon the familiar. There are many people out there that came here in the beginning to get away from the standard trappings of other MMOs such as loot and PvP. Many opposed the invention system as giving in to those trappings, but now the game feels a little more diverse because of it. The last hurdle was PvP and with no real ideas as to how to be different, we got the Arena. The problem was once the thrill of being able to turn our powers on each other faded, so did interest in the Arena. In came the PvP zones with a wide open expansive feel, but in the end, be it a PvP zone or server, it was really the same old thing many had come here to forget.
Now it appears that there are many who would like to PvP (I myself included), but the climate was too reminiscent of that "Other" game. Many (myself included again) were really torn when it came to the PvP zones. On the one hand we could finally have those superhero battles we longed for out in the open, but on the other hand we had to swallow the nasty medicine of typical PvP. Some people would like to allow PvP to continue being so distasteful that it would eventually go away, but that notion has sailed. It's time we found a way to make this work so that it can finally entice people like myself into having that epic superhero battle, but win-or-lose, come away with their dignity in tact
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Thank you for that.
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Fess up; you made an assumption about the post before you even did more than glance at it.
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Nope. I read a well thought-out post, contianing a lot of creative ideas ... one of which is one I think should never, under any circumstances, happen: being PvP-immune in a PvP zone. In response to that - as I do any time the idea is brought up, no matter by who - I popped out that standard response.
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I think you'd have been better off amending your 'standard response" so it actually makes sense in context.
You're usually a lot smarter about your posts, Pax. I mean that as a compliment, really, even though I disagree with you most of the time. However, I can't help but think you didn't fully comprehend the point and reason for the suggestion. Simply passing it off as a "STUPID IDEA" just makes you come off as a little kid with his fingers in his ears screaming "Can't hear you!!"
Your cut/paste standard response just isn't cutting it one this one. Not to mention the complete irrelevance most of it had.
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Not bad HB, not bad at all.
There was a few things I wanted to address though, the first was on Flagging.
I'm a believer that there SHOULD be seperate PvP and PvE builds. But I'm with Pax, and strongly disagree that there should be a 'PvP off' mode in pvp zones.
See, here's the thing... If it does happen, there needs to be an option where the two could NEVER interact, which IMO is counter-productive to everything you've said.
This was because of something that was brought to my attention on my own server. During an event in Recluse's victory, there was a lot of heroes in the zone that were going AV hunting. Also in the zone were about 5 or 6 villains. So they were grossly outnumbered. The thing was, they didn't mind.
So when Lord Recluse spawned, the heroes went after him. Since the villains would get thrashed if they went up against that many heroes at once, instead they buffed Lord Recluse. Forge, Shileds, Fulcrum shift. They were killed for doing that... but they instead 'went to base' and respawned again right next to them (an issue which should be fixed).
Now they had a 30 second timer of no pvp... Again, they buffed/healed Lord Recluse with no risk at all to them, and all the heroes wiped.
Now what I'm trying to get at is not," OMG Those guys are jerks!" What I'm trying to get at is," OMG look how they exploited the system!"
Now think about this for a moment if you will. You've got an empath, who uses their PvE build for PvP. They will not turn on pvp mode, but will actively heal, and buff people who are pvping, while they just get to stand, unharmed by all.
This also will help people who Dual box, or even tri box to take their pocket emp/therm/kins to stand on a rooftop or something nearby, away from the mobs, and just hand out buffs easily instead of them having to run back to base.
So people would see this happening and just leave pvp if they know people are just going to abuse the system in that way.
Now, what if we DO make it so that PvE and PvP cannot interact? Well what if someone's genuinely in trouble? Like for example if the PvE mobs that are nice and upgraded start hitting the PvP players hard, and the player is in trouble of getting zone debt? Well they can't really help you at all, besides someone with taunt.
Or vice verca, A pvper hero sees someone PvE getting overwhelmed, and he tries to help them out... but let's say he's a buffer class. Well he can't buff him at all, or heal him. It's rather depressing that you can't help out them unless you run back to base and 'switch off' pvp mode if this were true.
But again, imagine the Recluses Victory scenario. 2 opposing sides both in PvE mode, and 1 guy is buffing or healing the archvillains/hero and there's no way to stop him from doing so... because he's not PvPing, he's buffing a PvE mob, which is fine in the PvE game anyway.
Oh sure you could make it so he can't buff/heal the npcs in the zone, but wasn't that the point of Recluse's victory and Sirens call? The storyline of both is you're defending your side, pvp or not.
I'm not seeing a way that this wouldn't be exploited, unless you made it a 1 time deal. After they enter the zone and not con for pvp, if they enter again, they are flagged for pvp.
The way I see it, if a badge hunter just wants to badge hunt and has NO interest in pvp whatsoever, no matter how many rewards or goodies are thrown in... well they go in once, get everything they need, and leave with no problems.
Wether or not this would be limited to actually exiting or logging out, I'm not sure. But I would be sure that it would be once per pvp zone.
Now what about the whole hero and villain thing? What if 2 people are both in the zone and PvEing... and are stealing each other's mobs?
They can't attack each other or team each other. I offer you this conversation between 2 PvErs in Recluses victory fighting over PvE mobs. They were both on the same side, but refused to team... I'm seeing situations like this arising.
But those are my reason PvP flaging wouldn't be a good idea. I'm seeing a lot of ways to exploit the system. Plus as many problems as it might solve, there will be others that crop up.
Challanges
I like the idea around it.
Only again, like I had said for flagging, what's to stop outside interference, via buffs and healing? Wanted or unwanted, it's gonna happen. Oh and what about mobs? What if the challangers are moving around and mobs, like Longbow are shooting the villains only? Yet they can't interact with anything else but the other players they've challanged, so they can't fight back? Nor can their allys (Outside allies of the same fraction I mean) heal the damage from NPCs.
This would call on reworking of the NPCs as well.
Here's my suggestion to this instead:
Allow challange mode to be setup the same way, but WITH being able to be interfered with by the outside. You see the challangers as conning RED as if you were taunted.
Outside players will see you conned as a lighter color of orange or blue. If the challangers are hit with outside interference, via NPC or healing, the challange is temporarly dropped for 20 seconds... thus giving them time to either move away or just drop it alltogether.
Merit System
I like it. This is something we've asked for, for a long time now. But I would make 1 suggestion to this...
Most of the items listed here aren't used much for pvp. I would say add in the option for a LOT of rep to get a random generic IO (at their level), or a random pool C IO.
Other then that, yea it's a good suggestion.
Mutual Support
And this folks, is what it's all about. We would like some love, just as much as the PvE game gets love... although to clarify I'm not in love any of you, so stop sending me love notes Rei.
And H_B about your second post. I don't disagree with any of it. I would find all of that extremely fun.
Former King of PWNZ
Franziska Von Karma says you will listen to every word I say.
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I'm not in love any of you, so stop sending me love notes Rei.
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So you say, but we all know the truth.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I've tried to get involved in PvP here too, but like many others, my first experience was so negative as to keep me out of the zones altogether for months. I had arranged for someone I knew heroside to fight me in Siren's, and made the colossal mistake of actually telling people that I'd like to be left alone. The chat window immediately filled with some of the most idiotic trash-talk I had ever seen, and my hero friend simply left, not wanting to put up with it. I stuck around hoping I could at least fight a decent match, but every time I tried to find someone to actually fight, a group came out of nowhere to gank the crap out of me and started camping outside the hospital, explaining with a great deal of obscenity their superior skill as evidenced by their ability to beat a poorly-built corrupter with a PvP-specced team of four. I told them that I wasn't actually interested in fighting them, and they responded with more imbecilic insults. Eventually I got sick of it and left.
This was not an isolated incident. I woudl guess there are thousands of like players who suffered similarly unbearable experiences in PvP. This system proposes to fix this by making it effectively impossible to do such things, and by giving the other players more options than taking their ball and going home.
For me, crossover builds are still for the PvP-devotees only as long as you have to invest heavy Inf into them. The very effort of making a PvP-specific build deters me; having to use my precious inf on it is a no-no.
I don't mind making the zone games more difficult, as long as they scale with team size; they should still be soloable.
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Lol Pax_ Do you have like a whole folder on your computer filled with Word Files that are "Pre-made" Respones that you only need to Copy - Paste? And If you do are they interchangable? (Like can you combine different ones?)
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He's not called Debatocles for nothing.
Unfortunately I can't really see his style holding up well compared to Socrates, and other great minds of the time, but c'est la vie. I think that "enema arrow" thing may come into play here, only except the obvious, what we get is a copious outflow not of waste-matter, but of words.
Ick, what a metaphor. Sorry.
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I see the whole vein-throbbing jest wasn't completely wasted on you, Bad 
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I'll break it down for you pax ....
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That's funny., You accuse me of not reading a post ... and then, to defend that accusation, you fail to read a post. You know, the very FIRST sentence after the big, bold, yellow "standard response" title:
"There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind."
It's a pre-packaged "one size fits most" response, that covers all four of the most-popular varietyesof PvP-and-PvE-mixed suggestions. Part (3) is the one that (obviously) addresses the bit I was responding to, because that part of hte OPs idea directly suggests a way to opt out of PvP despite being in a PvP zone.
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/facepalm
just.go.read.the.post.please.
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I take heart in the fact that everyone is not in agreement with pax.
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You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
The OP is a really good post-- a non-passionate evaluation and suggestions for change.
You're a better man than I, because I can't avoid the 'All PVPers are d---s,' attack.
The most important parts, and the ones that players and devs should most take to heart are:
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In comparison with the genial, consensually associative, and casual profile of the rest of the game this environment is repellant and many players refuse to enter PVP zones at all due to it. This is the most overshadowing problem with PVP as it currently exists and any "fix" which does not address it will leave this game element with a sour and unattractive experience.
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One of the standard responses to 'All PVPers are d---s' is 'I'm a PVPer and I'm not. You're letting the actions of a few color your perception of the whole.'
Yeah. It tends to work that way, doesn't it? One trash-talker or 'ganker' type will do more damage than twenty 'honorable' PVPers.
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With a temp this powerful, acquiring it should be an event, it should be a team activity, it should be hard!
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A lot of people view the Shivan and Warburg temps as 'bait' to get PVEers into the zones. This is ultimately a pretty self-defeating attitude. If you have to 'bait' players into doing something they wouldn't otherwise, you're doing something wrong.
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A potential criticism of this idea I've heard before is "PVP is for PVP zones and PVE is for PVE zones; leave PVP for PVP". This mental segregation is foolish. Beyond the fact that there is already nominal reason for PVEers to enter for badges and such, all the PVPers already PVP. It is the PVEers that would need to be courted to find something appealing in PVP for it to flourish. That will only happen with more (and better) exposure.
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My experiences with the unpleasantness of PVP and the availability of the Oroborous system for auto-exemping has led me to swearing off PVP zones for any reason. I'm more-or-less permanently lost to PVP in its current state. I'm happier that way, and it'd seem at first glance that many PVPers would be happier if I didn't bother them.
This is a vicious cycle that has the potential to simply make PVP unattractive to update for NCSoft. Why bother if it chases players away and segregates them?
Getting players interested in PVP via Ex Libris' contests or the like is currently the only real future PVP has in CoX, barring encouraging PVE players to safely visit and observe PvP as in the op's suggestion.