[Unique IOs] IO effects with a duration? Ick...!!
By
2hawks,
Posted on: 2007-03-01 10:22 in The Market and Inventions
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<ul type="square">[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
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Hmm...Port over the AI coding/specs of Warburg Scientists, perhaps? Last I saw, these guys had no trouble following me when I'm stealthed.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
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Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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Perhaps just allow it to be used in Sprint. You'll only get the Stealth benefit if Sprint is running. The extra End cost would be a very low cost considering the benefit. If you don't have Sprint running then you aren't Stealthed. 
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My main is a granite tank, I could currently slot this in swift, if it can't be slotted in passives, it's useless to me as the main travel powers including sprint are incompatible with granite and rooted (so I can't have both mez prot and stealth at the same time). Now I can see good reasons why you shouldn't be able to stealth in granite as they can hear you coming, but reality hasn't set in anywhere else, as your 'massive bulk' of granite is still pushed around by 100 lb npcs.
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Currently:
[list][*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.
[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.
[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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Now I truly hope you can come up with some other solution than just dropping them. Others have made good suggestions and it could be as simple as giving hostages a very high perception.
My main hero's concept is someone who attacks out of shadows. Stealth and teleport are key aspects of his concept and when I first read the possibility of getting +Stealth options from the travel powers and giving me the possibility to get a form of stealth without using one of my 4 power pool selections (or even better enhancing the power pool selection) I was very happy.
Please do not just drop these from the list because they have a seemingly easy to overcome problem.
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Or maybe just issue stealthed characters a leash - and let NPCs follow them whether stealthed or not.
Perosnally I've always gottena little tired of having to turn my hide off in order to drag kidnap victims around, when I personally always envisioned myself as being skillful enough to lurk in the shadows and occasionally whisper "Psst - go to the end of the hall and get in the elevators or you die." Without breaking stealth.
I guess I'm just less super than I thought.
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That would be my first choice too; I just don't see a problem with letting stealthy people sneak through missions. Besides, it's not like you can't add stealth ignoring ambushes if you're determined to screw Stalkers at high difficulty anyway.
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Many good suggestions so far...
When you click a glowie stealth supresses. Can we make hostages clickable with a similar effect?
Please don't axe this feature, there's gotta be a way.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
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Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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You could make an inherient toggle power that surpresses stealth. Call it "Reveal" or something. Give it a really small duration that lasts just barely as long as the toggle tick duration and make it recharge instantly, and you could have lots of fun with the power.
The "only in sprint" idea I'm against. I was planning on putting one of those into Quickness and one into Sprint. I I could get more, I was shooting for putting one of each in Quckness, Sprint, Superspeed (hehe even MORE stealth) and Combat Jumping.
I REALLY hope these don't get pulled, I can put up wiht not being able to solo an escort mish if I have one in Quickness, that would be my own fault.
The solution is to just have someone on a team escort the npc. I honestly think that if you want to put a +stealth in a power that's ALWAYS going to be on (like an auto power) then you should be ready to pay the price until a workaround is available. I was ready to, to me it's like a blaster complaining about agro on a team when he's using all AoE or Cone attacks that hit all the mobs.
If you want to play that way, you're GOING to get some negative side effects. Work around it.
Just my opinion, but I do like some of the ideas here, like NPC's ignoring stealth by having a HUGE perception bonus. Shouldn't be TOO hard to code I'd think. Then again, I don't know how NPC's are coded anyway. Do they even have stats?
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Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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Better to just deny the +stealth ones in a passive. Then we could still slot them into things like SS, other travel powers, and sprint. A lot of people have 6 different slottable sprint powers anyhow, thanks to vet rewards.
Why is it Pets and certain NPCs have no trouble seeing through stealth? I assume those NPCs have been linked to you as pets even though they don't fight but I can't see the code. All I know is some NPCs are near impossible to shake and some would get lost in a phone booth.
An example is the reporter (I forget her name) in CoV in the Shivan mission. I tried hard to lose her and couldn't. SS across the zone then hit the elevator and there she is on the next level like Droppy Dog. She is an escort mission, doesn't fight but doesn't get lost easy either. Heck NPCs that fight get lost easier than her, she's a real terrier.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
I don't get this. Can they not change the NPC AI to just have a higher perception (as in MAX perception) to see through stealth? It should be like this anyway with the issues they have with Shadow Fall etc.
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<ul type="square">Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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just make the NPCs like the scientists in warburg, they follow not matter what. ....
just a thought...
To clarify a point that some people are missing:
Prior to Issue 5, hostage NPCs could see you when you were stealthed and had no trouble following you. In I5, the devs deliberately chose to make hostages unable to see through stealth. Shortly after, they gave NPCs who assist in combat the ability to see through stealth, on the basis that they were going to draw aggro to you anyway. And in I6, they gave Warburg scientists the same ability, presumably because they felt it would be unfair to make people unstealth in an open PVP zone.
So this is not an issue of "LOL Devs can't fix hostage NPCs"; the hostages don't follow you when you have stealth up because the devs don't want them to be able to do that. And they're probably not going to change their minds just because players like the idea of something as (quite frankly) broken as an auto-stealth power that can be stacked to get auto-invisibility.
A few other methods:
-The stealth could, perhaps, be some sort of "watermarked" stealth that is an exception to the usual, togglable "they don't follow me" rule. In essence, when running the "do they see me?" calculation, include the stealth for hostiles, but exclude it for escorted NPCs
-Create a button for the enhancement that can turn it off. If these are supposed to be unique, then only one button will actually be needed and there won't be any issues with overloaded button names. Of course, there are potential mez issues if it's a toggle, but these are in line with stealth dropping anyway.
Lastly, the blocking from automatic powers option seems to make sense to me. The sets that have been spoiled on these very forums seem to suggest that they're built for actual toggle powers rather than automatics in the first place.
I agree that the best solution is to give hostages a power that activates upon rescue maybe two powers.
One powers is a huge self +Perception buff for the hostage himself (so he can see you).
The other is a huge aura of +Perception to enemies, so they can see you.
That means Stalkers can still use Hide for a hostage mission still get the Assassin Strike if they can get in the hit before Hide is broken but enemies will be able to find you because you're being trailed by an unstealthy goof.
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[ QUOTE ]
Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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You could make an inherient toggle power that surpresses stealth. Call it "Reveal" or something. Give it a really small duration that lasts just barely as long as the toggle tick duration and make it recharge instantly, and you could have lots of fun with the power.
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This sounds good.
It would also let people with stealthy defense powers (such as Dark Armor's Cloak of Darkness, stalkers who slot hide for defense, Shadowfall, etc) go about and not have to worry about turning of some of their defense just to finish the mission.
I don't see /invul/ or Stone armors having to lower their defense to finish a escort mission.
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I currently play 2 /dark villians. On a few occasions when fighting in a mission, I'd pick up an ally upon reaching a certain point who would then assist in fighting mobs and/or clearing the mission. And this is while shadowfall is running, so clearly there is some type of +perception involved.
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Okay, recap :
At game release : All escort NPCs , hapless/helpless or pet/lt/boss/elite - Able to see past stealth just fine.
At/around i5 - "I can't see you in stealth" coded added to ALL escort NPCs.
Shortly thereafter - Due to various complaints, including the fact that some of the "allied" npc escorts would agro on things on the other side of the map, etc, while your stealth/defense was down (my experience, because I play a dark armor scrapper), and the fact that ambushes on such missions were larger anyway, fighting NPCs were coded as an exception to the NPCs-can-see-past-stealth.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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They are a nice bonus and add diversity to some builds. I'd rather not see them cut or reduced to the point where you'll have to have all 4 to do the job of one.
Can't you program them to NOT go into passives? or make hostages radiate a +perception aura around them for everything nearby including themlseves?
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To clarify a point that some people are missing:
Prior to Issue 5, hostage NPCs could see you when you were stealthed and had no trouble following you. In I5, the devs deliberately chose to make hostages unable to see through stealth. Shortly after, they gave NPCs who assist in combat the ability to see through stealth, on the basis that they were going to draw aggro to you anyway. And in I6, they gave Warburg scientists the same ability, presumably because they felt it would be unfair to make people unstealth in an open PVP zone.
So this is not an issue of "LOL Devs can't fix hostage NPCs"; the hostages don't follow you when you have stealth up because the devs don't want them to be able to do that. And they're probably not going to change their minds just because players like the idea of something as (quite frankly) broken as an auto-stealth power that can be stacked to get auto-invisibility.
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Eh, I think they should simply reverse that decision. It adds more annoyance than anything else to gameplay. It's causing big problems with some cool new IOs. It would probably be a very easy fix since they have the old code. Why not just change it back?
If they wanted to balance it out so you couldn't just sneak past the "get the hostage back" ambushes, I have no problem with hostage AI being changed so they always "leash" back to enemy mobs in range, stealthed PCs or not. Or they could just use what they have now anyway: ambushes that see through stealth no problem.
_Castle_.... a simple way to fix the escort NPC's and stealth power from slotting is....
When a travel power (passive only) is slotted with the set of IO's, instead of adding the stealth effect to the character...it creates a "temporary" power for the character that can be turned off or on, independent of the travel power. The extra stealth power is no cost (because its on a passive power)...but gives the player control over it.
This also gives you a chance to design and consider IO's for specifically passive and toggles.
Mew
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_Castle_.... a simple way to fix the escort NPC's and stealth power from slotting is....
When a travel power (passive only) is slotted with the set of IO's, instead of adding the stealth effect to the character...it creates a "temporary" power for the character that can be turned off or on, independent of the travel power. The extra stealth power is no cost (because its on a passive power)...but gives the player control over it.
This also gives you a chance to design and consider IO's for specifically passive and toggles.
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My characters with mez protection would like that idea.
My characters without mez protection would find themselves detoggled an awful lot.
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My characters with mez protection would like that idea.
My characters without mez protection would find themselves detoggled an awful lot.
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They'd lose any normal stealth from being detoggled. If stealth were tied to normal movement toggles, you'd be susceptable to the same thing, as well.
Obligatory counter-question: what happens to the button if the stealth enhancement is replaced? (Should be removed, obviously...but some coding to respond in this manner and remove it would have to be present)
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Would these stealth bonuses also knock out the MM Supremacy inherent?
Slot one or more with +stealth, all henchmen lose supremacy bonus..... le suck!
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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The simplest suggestion I can think of, that would require very little real work, would be to hand out to everyone a new inherent power, called "LookAtMe" (well, something cool), that was a zero endurance burning toggle that suppressed self-stealth. Basically, the presumption is that you should always be able to suppress your own stealth, by just jumping up and down and waving your arms, if necessary. Players that had passive stealth could toggle this during escort missions that required visibility, and temporarily suppress their own stealth.
Seems to cost nothing but a free give-away toggle power, and it doesn't alter mobs, affect other teammates, alter the mechanics of stealth, or modify the mechanics of the invention IOs.
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How would this be any easier than just giving hostage NPC's max perception so the stealth wasn't an issue?
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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Perhaps just allow it to be used in Sprint. You'll only get the Stealth benefit if Sprint is running. The extra End cost would be a very low cost considering the benefit. If you don't have Sprint running then you aren't Stealthed.