[Unique IOs] IO effects with a duration? Ick...!!
By
2hawks,
Posted on: 2007-03-01 10:22 in The Market and Inventions
That just doesn't make much sense to me. Can't they program all 'hostage' NPC's (those being rescued) to have greater perception? It doesn't seem like it would be that big of a change.
How about the ability to right click any friendly buff and suppress it for 60 seconds?
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the reason NPC's can't see though stealth is because the dev's didn't like that anyone with any type of invis/stealth can complete rescue and kidnap mission with practically no difficulty. just run in, find the captive, rescue, then lead them out without worrying about any of the other mobs in the mission. too much reward for not enough risk.
thing is, even now, its still quite easy (too easy even) to complete click and defeat mission with stealth/invis. the dev's do not want to make the game any easier for stealthed/invised players, since they already have it so well. it used to be that grabbing blinkies didn't suppress stealth too, but the dev's changed that so you would have to be visible to grab them.
lets put it one more way: anyone without stealth - what do they do to complete missions? they have to grind through the mission, regardless of what type it is. they might get past a few mobs here and there, but mostly they have to fight through it. stealth and invis already bypass this.
as to how to fix it: the "look at me" toggle doesn't sound bad. one with no end that suppresses all invis/stealth. this also would be nice for when someone is running shadowfall or steamy mist and you're trying to keep the NPC. the team could be stealthed while one person leads the NPC out.
another idea: have NPCs be able to see through passive stealth bonuses... but in all fairness, once the NPC can see through the passive stealth, enemy NPCs should be able to see you as well. i dont know how hard that would be code though.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
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Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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The simplest suggestion I can think of, that would require very little real work, would be to hand out to everyone a new inherent power, called "LookAtMe" (well, something cool), that was a zero endurance burning toggle that suppressed self-stealth. Basically, the presumption is that you should always be able to suppress your own stealth, by just jumping up and down and waving your arms, if necessary. Players that had passive stealth could toggle this during escort missions that required visibility, and temporarily suppress their own stealth.
Seems to cost nothing but a free give-away toggle power, and it doesn't alter mobs, affect other teammates, alter the mechanics of stealth, or modify the mechanics of the invention IOs.
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Sounds perfect. :thumbsup:
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The simplest suggestion I can think of, that would require very little real work, would be to hand out to everyone a new inherent power, called "LookAtMe" (well, something cool), that was a zero endurance burning toggle that suppressed self-stealth. Basically, the presumption is that you should always be able to suppress your own stealth, by just jumping up and down and waving your arms, if necessary. Players that had passive stealth could toggle this during escort missions that required visibility, and temporarily suppress their own stealth.
Seems to cost nothing but a free give-away toggle power, and it doesn't alter mobs, affect other teammates, alter the mechanics of stealth, or modify the mechanics of the invention IOs.
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Heeeeeey, I already suggested that 
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You could make an inherient toggle power that surpresses stealth. Call it "Reveal" or something. Give it a really small duration that lasts just barely as long as the toggle tick duration and make it recharge instantly, and you could have lots of fun with the power.
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But it makes my idea all the more cooler now that you suggested it too.
fix: let me add/remove enhancements whenever i want to.
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Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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I will be extremely disappointed if the +Stealth IOs are dropped.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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Sorry if this had been mentioned, how about giving the escortable NPC an aura or power that negates the stealth on a player.
This power could have the range of the NPC maximum following distance.
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lets put it one more way: anyone without stealth - what do they do to complete missions? they have to grind through the mission, regardless of what type it is. they might get past a few mobs here and there, but mostly they have to fight through it. stealth and invis already bypass this.
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Not totally true. On both my tanks and scrappers I very often bull through missions, ignoring all mobs until I reach the final room. Stealth is not essential when you have defenses and can just brush off the trivial amount of damage you get from the passing mobs.
I would never try this with a non-stealthed squishy, but the point is that not *all* non-stealthed types have to grind through missions.
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Not totally true. On both my tanks and scrappers I very often bull through missions, ignoring all mobs until I reach the final room. Stealth is not essential when you have defenses and can just brush off the trivial amount of damage you get from the passing mobs.
I would never try this with a non-stealthed squishy, but the point is that not *all* non-stealthed types have to grind through missions.
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Actually, you can do it on a non-stealthed squishy, if you have Superspeed or Superleap+Hurdle as your travel power, and have decent coordination. It is quite possible to get past most things and around a corner so fast that they don't have time to engage.
You can sort of even pull this off with Flight or Teleport, but it takes a lot more work, and is substantially riskier.
Ya, my Dom with Hurdle / Combat Jumping could do this just fine. Even if I did get hit, it was never significant.
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The simplest suggestion I can think of, that would require very little real work, would be to hand out to everyone a new inherent power, called "LookAtMe" (well, something cool), that was a zero endurance burning toggle that suppressed self-stealth.
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I want that power and I want it called that.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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The easiest solution would be to admit that hostages not having +perception, while all ambushes along the entire path to the door being able to see you regardless of how much +stealth you stack, is simply a cheat that FEELS like a cheat. It is neither subtle nor particularly creative: it feels like a brute-force method to "fix" something that really was never a problem except for in the "vision" of how the players should be playing.
If you insist on this, give all NPC's a -stealth AoE toggle that they turn on as soon as they are rescued. As soon as they say their lines (as soon as the enemy guarding them is defeated,) they turn on that -stealth aura and they keep it on permanently. And remove the unbelievable +perception from ambushes. Allow stalkers to leave the hostage behind and clear the way, then return and pick up said hostage without being unable to hide for a large chunk of the mission.
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Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
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There is a single, very simple solution to this issue, which also preserves some of the benefits of Hide for Stalkers (and "old fashioned" Stealth, for others).
Give Escort NPCs a whole bucketful of +Perception ...!
As for the RP side, simple - maybe a stealthy hero keeps saying *psst* ... over here! ... or your villain just casually clubs the poor sap over the head and CARRIES them out. Whatever works for each player.
But again, let me restate: just give the Escort NPCs a high +Perception value.
...
To add a twist, maybe unwilling Escort-NPCs actually radiate that +perception, revealing the stealthy character's location to their enemies!
((CC via PM))
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[ QUOTE ]
Along this line... What can you tell us about the various +Stealth IOs from the Travel Sets?
Specifically, can they be slotted in passive powers? If so, how is this going to interact with NPC hostages and such that won't interact with a stealthed character?
[/ QUOTE ]
Currently:
<ul type="square">[*]They can be slotted into passive movement powers.[*]You can have one of each type on your character for some massive bonuses.[*]Escort NPCs will not follow you if these are slotted on your characters.[/list]
Now, before the uproar starts, I have to say that unless we find a satisfactory solution for the last item on the list, these IO's have a high probability of being cut before reaching the live servers. Even if that problem is solved, it is still unlikely that you will be able to slot all 4 versions in a single character -- either that, or the stealth aspect will be reduced greatly.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a single, very simple solution to this issue, which also preserves some of the benefits of Hide for Stalkers (and "old fashioned" Stealth, for others).
Give Escort NPCs a whole bucketful of +Perception ...!
As for the RP side, simple - maybe a stealthy hero keeps saying *psst* ... over here! ... or your villain just casually clubs the poor sap over the head and CARRIES them out. Whatever works for each player.
But again, let me restate: just give the Escort NPCs a high +Perception value.
...
To add a twist, maybe unwilling Escort-NPCs actually radiate that +perception, revealing the stealthy character's location to their enemies!
((CC via PM))
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The interesting thing here is that since NPCs demonstrate the incanny ability to be able to see through geometry at times, imagine your surprise when the escort hostage you just freed latches onto not you, but a mob several rooms away, or even on another floor.
You then have to pretty much kill all the mobs on the map, and by doing that, why did you need to stealth in the first place? 
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lets put it one more way: anyone without stealth - what do they do to complete missions? they have to grind through the mission, regardless of what type it is. they might get past a few mobs here and there, but mostly they have to fight through it. stealth and invis already bypass this.
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Not totally true. On both my tanks and scrappers I very often bull through missions, ignoring all mobs until I reach the final room. Stealth is not essential when you have defenses and can just brush off the trivial amount of damage you get from the passing mobs.
I would never try this with a non-stealthed squishy, but the point is that not *all* non-stealthed types have to grind through missions.
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Agreed, it is quite possible to "ghost" most missions with any toon with just hurdle+cj. Having actual travel powers just makes it very easy.
With a stealth/invis power it is more just a luxury that allows you to stop at more or less any point, rather than going full-tilt to the final room.
Frosticus
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lets put it one more way: anyone without stealth - what do they do to complete missions? they have to grind through the mission, regardless of what type it is. they might get past a few mobs here and there, but mostly they have to fight through it. stealth and invis already bypass this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not totally true. On both my tanks and scrappers I very often bull through missions, ignoring all mobs until I reach the final room. Stealth is not essential when you have defenses and can just brush off the trivial amount of damage you get from the passing mobs.
I would never try this with a non-stealthed squishy, but the point is that not *all* non-stealthed types have to grind through missions.
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Agreed, it is quite possible to "ghost" most missions with any toon with just hurdle+cj. Having actual travel powers just makes it very easy.
With a stealth/invis power it is more just a luxury that allows you to stop at more or less any point, rather than going full-tilt to the final room.
Frosticus
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Some options for the escorts:
<ul type="square">[*] Have stealth suppression when someone is following you. (this is my preferred option, especially if there is a "stop following me" command you can give them so that they can switch to following someone else if you need the stealth. Mind you, this one also only works if the +Stealth from these IO's is suppressed when you attack, which I'm assuming it is)[/list]
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This is what got implemented. From the last patch notes on test:
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You can now pick up escort hostages while stealthed. However, everyone around the hostage will receive a stealth debuff when it is acquired. The debuff to stealth powers will remove when you exit the mission.
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Note carefully that the debuff is removed when you exit the mission, not when the hostage exits the mission. And a mayhem mission I did where I had both kidnap and breakout side missions suggests that the application of the debuff may be a little broken; I broke out the villain first and did the kidnap last, then went around cleaning out the last mobs, and I was getting an aggro range with Shadow Fall running that was equal to the aggro range with Shadow Fall off. So if you have missions with multiple rescues, you may have no effective Stealth by the time you pick up the last hostage. Hopefully this will be fixed if my assessment of the effects of multiple hostages' debuffs is accurate. Because I completed the kidnap after the bank robbery, I was unable to test whether exiting and reentering the mission without resetting will 'clean' the stealth debuff, or whether it's persistent.
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How would this be any easier than just giving hostage NPC's max perception so the stealth wasn't an issue?
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You'd have to change all the NPCs in the game, for one. For another, this issue came up specifically in CoV beta, when the complaint was that stalkers *had* to drop Hide in order to escort kidnap targets. At that time, the devs said that they felt it was working as intended for players to have to drop stealth to escort unwilling NPCs. Giving the NPCs max perception was already rejected once as a solution for players wanting to remain stealthed while escorting certain NPCs.
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