[Unique IOs] IO effects with a duration? Ick...!!
By
2hawks,
Posted on: 2007-03-01 10:22 in The Market and Inventions
edited for you to add that:
Hasten will be about 120 on and 29 seconds off. So for 29 seconds Hoar Frosts recharge drops from 3.025 to 2.325 So we have 270 seconds at 3.025 (90 seconds of rchg) and 90 seconds at 2.325 (39 second of rechg). So it recharges in 129 seconds out of 120 and again this is without any of the other bonus recharge that are there. This is also on the second hoarfrost... So you have Hoarfrost up 240 / 249 seconds. Before any additional recharge that is there. So we are looking at a 9 second down time every 4 minutes (again without a single other recharge that is there in sets)... unless you want to split hairs... thats perma.
My math has hasten down for 38 seconds, not 29.
But that still only has hoar frost down for 8 seconds.
Still, perma Hoar Frost isn't really the most impressive thing in the world, especially with all the +health availible in IOs.
Perma Hoar Frost with the accolades (with the +10% and either of the +5%) hits the tanker hit point cap of 3212.
Meanwhile, a tanker slotting IOs to benefit their existing powers best (and not just trying to get recharge or +Health, but instead using the full defensive sets on defensive powers, damage sets with damage powers, a hold set) can easily get +14.25% to be riding around at 2519, without any endurance cost.
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unless you want to split hairs... thats perma.
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For me, perma is perma. But if its different for you, you might want to let me know what's your threshold for perma in terms of seconds of downtime.
If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles."
But if you think that's perma, without the +0.375 speed buff at all, dull pain with hasten and 3-slot recharge averages about 30 seconds of downtime. Is the difference between perma and not perma somewhere between 30 seconds and 9 seconds?
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Not an advantage... hardly. You looking at hasten have 20 seconds of down time tops... so 120 on 140 off. Even better apply it to ice/* tank with the same numbers - 20% for quickness. In which you will get perma hoarfrost. Or even here for other sets: maneuver, CJ, Stealth, Weave, grant invis. There is 37.5% on its own. Add that to regen or any set with a dull pain for pretty close to perma dull pain with hasten.
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Couple things:
1) I didn't say it's not an advantage. But 37.5% recharge isn't even roughly comparable to 15% defense in terms of affect on a character.
2) I wouldn't take all that crap as a Regen just to use the APEs. There an opportunity cost to each slot you devote to APEs. Whoever asked before if you would rather have a large non-stacking bonus or several smaller stacking bonuses, I'll go for the large one everytime because you only take up one slot. If you give up a bit on the max side that's OK.
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This is also on the second hoarfrost... So you have Hoarfrost up 240 / 249 seconds.
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This is also wrong. There will be 240 seconds of uninterrupted Hoar Frost, yes. And then an 8 second gap between the second and the third hoar frost. But there will also be an 8 second gap between the third and the fourth. Following something out to the third iteration isn't really enough to establish a pattern.
There will continue to be an 8 second gap between recharges until the patter entirely resets and Hoar Frost and Hasten are both up at the same time.
It looks like it might reset completely on the 6th cycle of Hoar Frost.
So 24 seconds of hoar frost down over 632 seconds of play.
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Not an advantage... hardly. You looking at hasten have 20 seconds of down time tops... so 120 on 140 off. Even better apply it to ice/* tank with the same numbers - 20% for quickness. In which you will get perma hoarfrost. Or even here for other sets: maneuver, CJ, Stealth, Weave, grant invis. There is 37.5% on its own. Add that to regen or any set with a dull pain for pretty close to perma dull pain with hasten.
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Couple things:
1) I didn't say it's not an advantage. But 37.5% recharge isn't even roughly comparable to 15% defense in terms of affect on a character.
2) I wouldn't take all that crap as a Regen just to use the APEs. There an opportunity costs to each slot you devote to APEs. Whoever asked before if you would rather have a large non-stacking bonus or several smaller stacking bonuses, I'll go for the large one everytime because you only take up one slot. If you give up a bit on the max side that's OK.
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Not only that, but that's 4 power pools there, and Fitness isn't one of them.
And without Hasten, that 37.5% recharge buff isn't doing all that terribly much for dull pain.
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With SR:
DM: soul drain close to perma,
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This one is an interesting combination.
With Dark Melee/Super Reflexes/Darkness Mastery
You can go:
Touch of Fear: Glimpse of the Abyss, 5 Slots, 1 orange -Recharge
Boxing: Stupefy, 5 slots, 1 orange - recharge
Tenebrous Tentacles (or Torrent I suppose): Positron's Blast, 1 orange - recharge
Siphon Life: Doctored Wounds, 5 slots, 1 black - recharge
Tough: Impervious Skin, 5 slots, 1 black - recharge
Any defensive toggle: Kismet, 5 slots, 1 blue - recharge
Another defensive toggle: Red Fortune, 5 slots 1 blue - recharge
Dark Blast: Decimation, 5 slots, 1 orange - recharge
Smite: Crushing impact, 5 slots, 1 black - recharge
That's 4 orange - recharge, 3 black - recharge, and 2 blue - recharge.
That's good for 47.5% bonus to recharge rates, then you've still got slots left to put 5 of the +7.5% recharge speed enhancements in.
So thats:
47.5% set bonuses
37.5% recharge IO
20% Quickness
With Hasten to that, you've got a recharge of just about 121 seconds.
So almost Perma hasten again.
The only problem is that it is an exceedingly tight build, power wise. Only after doing a quick build to see if it had the slots for it did I notice that I hadn't been able to include Hasten.
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The only problem is that it is an exceedingly tight build, power wise. Only after doing a quick build to see if it had the slots for it did I notice that I hadn't been able to include Hasten.
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Wow, yeah, very tight. I found it hard to get both a travel power and stamina in there (I assume that 8-9 SR powers are mandatory). I suppose with so much recharge and Dark Consumption you can argue that stamina isn't needed, but then again you're looking at opportunity costs, like not having a passive that you can slot Numina's Convalescence into.
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unless you want to split hairs... thats perma.
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For me, perma is perma. But if its different for you, you might want to let me know what's your threshold for perma in terms of seconds of downtime.
If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles."
But if you think that's perma, without the +0.375 speed buff at all, dull pain with hasten and 3-slot recharge averages about 30 seconds of downtime. Is the difference between perma and not perma somewhere between 30 seconds and 9 seconds?
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Now I am confused. In the past you have spoke of "perma rage" in SS.
Rage 240/1.95 = 123 second recharge... and a 120 second duration. So it is off 3 seconds every 120 seconds or in 240 seconds off by 6 second which right online with hoarfrost. Now going straight by your If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles." I am truly thrown off by you speaking of perma rage.
And to avoid a "I never said perma rage"
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5. With perma-rage tohit buffs.
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And again my hoarfrost example is all without a single set bonus
By your very own definition of "absolute perma" Hoarfrost is going to end up being closer to your "absolute perma then the very same rage you have called perma. It funny how you wish to apply these very strict standards for defining... except, of course, in regards to your posts.
Tight... perhaps if you are looking at a normal build and adding in those additional powers. But what we can do is "skip" some attacks and other things too. With a perma 3.7 in each attack... you can start to do things like chain 3 of your highest DPS attack non-stop without gaps and things of that nature.
Shadow Punch - Smite - Shadow Punch - MG - Shadow Punch - Smite- Shadow Punch - (filler like S.L or ToF etc)
Look at a Claws / SR with a perma 3.7 recharge
FU- Focus - Evis - Focus - repeat This will be with a double stacked FU or 20% base THB and 75% + damage... so pretty much rage for 3 attacks and no crash.
the issue with Rage is that it has a 10 second "downcycle" during which you cannot attack. 3 SOs recharge in Rage make it cycle Before this downtime is over. So, it isn't quite perma, but you also can't attack during the time it's down, so it might as well be perma. You can Always have it up when attacking, unless you are in Granite Armor, or have been seriously slowed by debuffs.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Now I am confused. In the past you have spoke of "perma rage" in SS.
Rage 240/1.95 = 123 second recharge... and a 120 second duration. So it is off 3 seconds every 120 seconds or in 240 seconds off by 6 second which right online with hoarfrost. Now going straight by your “If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles." I am truly thrown off by you speaking of perma rage.
And again this is all without a single set bonus… By your very own definition Hoarfrost is going to end up being “closer to perma” the rage you have called perma.
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1. I use the term "perma-rage" because its the generally accepted term, so people know what I'm talking about (the use of rage as continuously as possible). However, to the best of my recollection, I've never explicitly stated how much recharge is necessary to achieve permanent status of rage.
2. However, I'll do so now. Rage has 240 second recharge, 120 second duration (and 1.17 second activation time). It also has a 10 second cool down. As a practical matter, all levels of recharge from +0.863 to +1.020 have the same overall benefit, because of the cooldown: it allows rage's benefits to accrue 120 seconds out of every 130 (those numbers factor in activation times).
Recharge levels higher than +1.020 would theoretically allow rage to stack, and therefore have a potentially different overall net effect.
Therefore, all levels of recharge from about +0.863 to +1.020 can be said to make rage "perma" in the sense of the rage benefits being available as often as the cooldown period would ordinarily allow. But in another sense, barring exploits, no amount of recharge actually allows rage to be literally perma in the sense most people mean, because the cooldown prevents rage's benefits from being useful for certain unavoidable windows of time.
And to be honest, I don't think you're confused. Everyone else knows what I mean when I refer to perma-rage as a generally accepted term. And they know what I mean when I say that I don't personally describe anything as being perma unless its actually perma, because I can actually calculate how much recharge is actually required to make it literally perma, and saying anything else would be injecting an unnecessary subjective opinion into something that can be easily calculated and stated for other people to make up their minds on. So if you're confused, you're in a very small minority.
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There is not *issue* Arcanville made a very precise statement and I qoute:
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If I say something is perma, everyone should know that I mean "absolutely no gap between cycles."
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My point has nothing to do with rage or it being perma... I consider it perma... it has to do with Arcanavilles defination. Whether-or-not a "gap" happens during a crash does not matter by that defination.
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And to be honest, I don't think you're confused. Everyone else knows what I mean when I refer to perma-rage as a generally accepted term.
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This generally excepted type of "perma" is the exact type of generally perma hoarfrost I was talking about. Again here you go using something and not allowing others too. I even said there was roughly an 8 second gap, which will be less with IO set bonus and be made perma. Actually.... looking at the 47.5 set bonus from MajorDecoy we can say we could get about the same thing for ice and add that to hoarfrost too. You are looking at s 120 seconds hasten on and 9 seconds hasten off (450/3.5) for /ice.
So for hoarfrost. You have 360 / 3.5 = 102 recharge. Which it lasts 120 seconds. And then you have 9 seconds at /2.8. This will allow your shorter period of no 3.5 recharge to happen during a stacked portion of hoarfrost thus hoarfrost will be perma.
So when adding in the factors I stated could be added in
Hoarfrost is indeed perma even by your definition.
You are looking at 120 * 3.5 + 9 * 2.8 / 129 = An avg recharge value of 3.45 seconds for hoarfrost. 360 / 3.45 = 104 second recharge
Perma
its even going to get stacked for short periods of 15 or so seconds.
So again I take your little "hoarfrost will not be perma" remark and say... yes it will, just like I said before. So if you want to add in all the "factors" for your rage... well then I will add in all the "factors I mentioned" for hoarfrost also.
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its even going to get stacked for short periods of 15 or so seconds.
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Yes, Stacked Hoar Frost is really not all that impressive. Stacking Hoar Frost means you go from 3212 Health to 3212 while Hoar Frost is stacked.
Yes, Dull Pain and Hoar Frost are nice powers, both good to have, but the only real advantage in having them stack is that the heal comes much more often.
90% of the time, that heal will be wasted if you have Hoar Frost on Perma.
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So again I take your little "hoarfrost will not be perma" remark and say... yes it will, just like I said before. So if you want to add in all the "factors" for your rage... well then I will add in all the "factors I mentioned" for hoarfrost also.
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Have fun with that, under whatever color sky you dwell.
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The stacking bonus is not my point of these last few posts. My point is Arcanaville
But to my statement. It is not a single aspect "on its own" that we start to see clear advantages but the combination of many factors. So you have an Ice/SS... With perma hoarfrost, double stacked rage for long periods; hibernate up every 17 seconds, EA up every 17 seconds. Then you start looking at what you can start to chain. And non-SS might be better... You have EM or other sets getting very good with BU at a 10 on 15 or so off ratio.
It is not a single factor type thing. Just because the recharge comes from your defense set does not mean it fails to apply to your assault set. Again its not just ice or SR or a defensive set. Given what we have in the powerpools this is going to be open to many sets and across AT's.
We can also look at things like a regen in perma dull pain.... with instant healing at 50/50 For those who like MoG you can have either MoG or Instant healing up all the time. Power Surge for /Elec at 180 on 90 off. Your going to completly counter the - rcharge in granite, and there is much much more. Again it is not simply a isolated picture... that much recharge applied to full builds and then having them built specifically for it will get very very nasty.
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So again I take your little "hoarfrost will not be perma" remark and say... yes it will, just like I said before. So if you want to add in all the "factors" for your rage... well then I will add in all the "factors I mentioned" for hoarfrost also.
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Have fun with that, under whatever color sky you dwell.
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So how will it not be perma again. Why talk about the color of the sky, before you even defend your claim.
Again, how (using all that I listed, and wanting perma) will you not be able to get perma hoarfrost... as is your claim. Or is this another one of your... I cannot answer for what I say so I will go off topic to try to avoid it.
What next a green house analogy to further avoid looking at your own statement?
If you're going for offensive advantages, don't look at Tanks.
Keep SR, because the Defense powers and Quickness are both important.
Go Energy Melee/Super Reflexes.
This is an odd build, and definately only a respecification build, but it looks interesting.
Get the prescence pool, Intimidate gives you Glimpse of the abyss and 1 orange recharge.
Energy Punch can be slotted for stun, it gets stupefy and 1 orange recharge.
The AOE Patron Pool Power gets Positron's Blast, and 1 orange recharge.
The Snipe Patron Pool Power gets Sting of the Manticore and 1 red recharge.
Aid Other gets Doctored Wounds and 1 black recharge
One Defense gets Kismet and a blue recharge, another gets Red Fortune and another blue recharge.
The Single Target Patron Pool Power gets Decimation and an orange recharge.
Total Focus gets Crushing Impact for a black recharge.
That's a 50% recharge bonus.
With 5 7.5% recharge enhancements, you get a 37.5% bonus.
The build fits hasten, for a 70% bonus.
And quickness for 20%
First off, hasten has a recharge of 120.8 seconds with this build, so it's effectively permanent.
Things of note about this build: it skips both Placate and Assassin Strike.
In fact, it only has Energy Punch, Build-up, Energy Transfer, and Total Focus from Energy Melee.
This isn't a detriment though, with 3 recharge SOs, Energy Transfer recharges in about 5.4 seconds.
I kind of wish I had an Energy Melee/Super Reflexes to try that with.
I talked about about a EM/SR stalker somewhere in another thread. I know it was kicking out well over 200 damage per second and things of that nature.
There are other sets that I have "played around with" and created some very nasty toons. Now if I could create this type of thing equally with every AT and every set... well that would be different because if everyone is overpowered equally... well atleast they are balanced compared to one another. However, IO's and certain things serve to highlight some imbalances that already exist and to an extent that makes it much much worse then better.
The purpose of IO's seemed to be to create balance with underperforming sets and things like that... However, the way they look now only looks to make the "uber vs gimp" spread much much more wider.
Well, the true problem with the EM/SR scrapper is that you'll be out of endurance almost as quickly as a blaster who uses a nuke.
And you'll be losing 9% of your health every 6 seconds, which is rather painful.
I am not so certain about that with all the ways to get + endx recovery in IO's and sets. This combined with IO sets that can give upwords of 50% endx in each power have some min/maxed sets looking very powerful and sustainable.
I don't see the IO sets that provide a -Endurance cost that you're talking about.
Also, the build I posted really only has 6 attacks, and 5 of them are already 5 or 6 slotted.
That leaves Energy Transfer to slot with Endurance reduction, but that's not really the most endurance hungry power that Energy Melee has.
Sure, it helps to slot it with Endurance Reduction, but then you can't do the obscene damage you could do if you'd just slotted it for accuracy, damage, and recharge.
You don't seem to have terribly many options for slotting with this build.
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Also: Hasten + 0.375 speed + 3-slot recharge is not perma-hoarfrost. Not since I6, anyway.
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HoarFrost
1.0 - base
.375 - IO
.70 - hasten
.95 - slots
3.025
Hoar frost 360 rechage 120 up. 360 / 3.025 = 119 recharge
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But since hasten isn't Permanent, it's not really perma Hoar Frost.
Sure, you'll have two consecutive Hoar Frosts without pause, but Perma- Hoar Frost is when you constantly have Hoar Frost up.