imported_Resonance

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As my forum name is not red, it's not place to make those statements.

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No, you have endorsed a waiting period on getting costume pieces. I'm calling you on it, and asking you to say how long. One issue? Two issues? Three? It's a simple question. No dev required. Your opinion made clear.


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Also, please stop looking for an argument where none exists. I don't share your opinion but you are quite welcome to it regardless of how idiotic and ludicrous I find that opinion.

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Right. You make a hostile, sarcastic straw-man attack on someone else's position, but of course no argument exists.


[montypython]
We're not having an argument!
Yes we are!
No we're not!
[/montypython]

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So, if you have a character design that needs one of those to look right, how many more issues should you be forced to wait?

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i dont intend to be rude or anything but if you need wings to make a costume work id suggest using one of the other 4 and possibly 5 costume slots until you can get them. Stop playing because your costume doesnt work? of course not. but itd probably be a good idea to use the things they have given you until then.

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Actually, the people that care about how the character appearance matches the character design will simply not play (or likely even begin) that character. They can play other characters, of course, but doing so simply constitutes waiting.

The question to EvilGeko still remains: how long is an appropriate period to have to wait to be able to use the new costume pieces?

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Yes, I am confused. How how you forced to engage in a hobby that's for fun?

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Ah, I understand. You're not confused: you're dishonest. That's a straw man argument.

Nobody is being forced to play. Feel free to stop at any time. On the other hand, nobody is talking about being forced to play.

On the other hand, if you are intending to build a character with a design that would use an invented costume piece under the current arrangements, you are being forced not to by the mechanics. Your options are to either not build the costume piece by virtue of doing something else in game, or not build the costume piece of doing something else out of the game. That's what 'forced' means. You don't have an option that actually lets you build the costume.


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Also, I offer no solution. None.

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So I noticed. You also dodged the question. How long should players be forced to wait? You've practically acknowledged that you endorse the extended waiting period, so be up front: how long should it take?


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All I offer is what I've been told. I've been told that originally inventions were to be included in I8, they were not. As an offering to appease the teaming masses screaming for wings, two wing designs were taken out of inventions and made to be vet rewards. So, if inventions had launched with I8 as planned, there would be no vet reward wings. None. And the compromise is bad? They changed things to make the players happy and that was bad?

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Yes, if the result was that almost nobody gets the wings. If that's their version of 'making players happy', we could use less of that. I'd cheerfully give up having wings as vet rewards if they were simply stuck into the costume designer for anyone to use. I suspect that they could yank the new wings altogether for another two issues, and it will make zero difference to the vast majority of the playerbase.

The current system is a lottery. A handful of people will win the lotto, and everyone else loses. On average, most people in their lifetimes will not win the lottery in real life. On average, most people in the coming issue will not win the costume pieces they want, either. I have no idea why you think this is 'making players happy'.

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Whether I agree or disagree with the premise of invented wings (that were originally all inventions, vet rewards were a gift and a preview to inventions...) but regardless of that... forced? You're forced? How? Some nutjob comes to your house and holds a gun to your head demanding you play a game?

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You seem very confused. Your solution to not being able to build a fitting costume in the game is to... not play? Somehow, I'm not seeing how that results in being able to build a fitting costume.

With the current drop rates, the average player with a particular costume piece in mind will probably not see that piece this issue. Or for that matter, the next. How many issues do you consider to be an appropriate wait?

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The new wings do look great, but I think the invention system was the WRONG way to bring them in. Especially with the current drop rates, it makes it a pain in the butt to get them, and renders them similar to the "1334" camp/raid/massive time sink items of certain other, not-to-be-named, mmos.

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The Inventions system is exactly the RIGHT way to bring these into the game. I'm glad we won't be seeing dozens of fairies, insect men or women, and rocket boot guys the day after I9 goes live.

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So, if you have a character design that needs one of those to look right, how many more issues should you be forced to wait?

Wow, that explains why almost all of the population is running PvE content, and the PvP zones are almost empty most of the time.

Wait...


(Tip: the importance of PvP in a game designed from the ground-up to be based on PvP is not the same as the importance of PvP in a game designed for PvE. Also, claiming you know the population behaviour for your servers when you aren't a dev and have no access to that information makes your entire message suspect.)

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Assuming no other tohit debuffs or defense buffs, going from a 3% tohit debuff to a 7.5% tohit debuffs effectively reduces the damage you take by over 10%.

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By 9%, actually. Not worthless, perhaps, but not much more valuable than Maneuvers (especially given that Maneuvers will take special IOs and RI won't), and useful really only for stacking on some other form of damage mitigation.


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I was concerned that the base number was 100%, in which case Rad would be bringing in only a trivial -regen. This needs testing, but I've seen at least one report that an Ill/Rad could still solo an AV, so I'm guessing 500% may be accurate.

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That seems to me to be an indication that Rads are still very much useful against AVs (not claiming that you indicated otherwise, just pointing it out).

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I haven't verified that report myself, so don't take it as gospel. I'm not disputing that rad will be useful against AVs, just that the changes appear to constitute a net AV buff for teams with rad, which is the last thing they needed. I'm a bit worried about running into a circumstance like I had a month ago, where a L22 Rad/Dark (which didn't yet have LR) SK'd up in a PUG with a L50 Rad/Rad and a L50 Invuln/SS tank just *barely* managed to take down a L52 Mother Mayhem AV. With two Shivans. I'm getting the feeling that in I9, that would have been a failed mission, which bothers me a lot.

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Accelerate Metabolism helps as much as it always did, but Tactics is worth substantially more than RI now in terms of landing blows, and Maneuvers is worth almost as much defense.

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I don't understand what you mean by "now". This change actually improves what RI does for you.

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It's missing a word. That's supposed to be "even now". I thought I fixed that during preview, sorry.

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In addition to this, Rad has many other ways to help in AV fights, and some of these were improved by the reduction in AV debuff resistances.

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Not... much.

Radiation infection went from a base -1.9% ToHit/Def to a -4.7% ToHit/Def. 3-slotted, that's a change from 3% to 7.5%. EF doesn't seem to be changed at all by this, though I was hoping the change meant that the base damage resistance of AVs was also going down (I didn't think it did, but does anyone know if this is actually the case?)

Accelerate Metabolism helps as much as it always did, but Tactics is worth substantially more than RI now in terms of landing blows, and Maneuvers is worth almost as much defense.

Assuming the base 500% number is correct, Rad still brings an average of 50% reduction in regen rate (factoring in recharge rate of LR), plus a 30% increase in team damage, plus AM, and a small amount of -ToHit/-Def.

I was concerned that the base number was 100%, in which case Rad would be bringing in only a trivial -regen. This needs testing, but I've seen at least one report that an Ill/Rad could still solo an AV, so I'm guessing 500% may be accurate.

Hm. The archetype multipier for -regen is the same for controllers and defenders?

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Just for reference purposes, a Level 50 player with Lingering Rad (-500% Regen) will now apply -75% Regen to a level 50 AV. Once you start going higher than that, the level mods start coming into play as well, so against a level 54 AV, -500% Regen becomes just -31.2% (0.13 * 0.48 * -500).

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Where are you seeing that Lingering Radiation is -500% Regen? On City of Data, it's only -100%.

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Not totally true. On both my tanks and scrappers I very often bull through missions, ignoring all mobs until I reach the final room. Stealth is not essential when you have defenses and can just brush off the trivial amount of damage you get from the passing mobs.

I would never try this with a non-stealthed squishy, but the point is that not *all* non-stealthed types have to grind through missions.

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Actually, you can do it on a non-stealthed squishy, if you have Superspeed or Superleap+Hurdle as your travel power, and have decent coordination. It is quite possible to get past most things and around a corner so fast that they don't have time to engage.

You can sort of even pull this off with Flight or Teleport, but it takes a lot more work, and is substantially riskier.

One thing to note: for PvP builds, unlimited endurance may in fact be something you want to shoot for, to compensate for possible use of temp powers, endurance drain, and the fact that in a zone like Siren's, you may well be moving from combat to combat with only a few seconds in between -- and that with your travel power active.

For PvE, you tend to only need enough to get you through enough fights to reach your next rest recharge or +EndRec power cycle.

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If I'm reading the wrong line, then why did you regurgitate the numbers I stated?

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My guess is that he meant to reply to the unedited version of your post, which quoted Tanker tough as 10%, which matches up with the ranged mod for tanker resists. :P

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That is, in fact, what happened. At the time of my writing, I was just correcting the Tanker numbers being shown as smaller than the Defender numbers.

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M Res Dmg 0.070 0.100 0.100 0.075 0.100 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.075 0.100 0.085 0.075
R Res Dmg 0.065 0.075 0.100 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.065 0.065 0.075 0.075 0.075
</pre><hr />

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Ok, I gotta say. WHOA.

The ramifications of the AT mods just hit me like twenty tons of bricks!

Scrapper tough = 11.25%
DEFENDER tough = 15%
Tanker tough = 15%


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You're reading the wrong line. Tough is a self-effect, so it's in the (M) category.

Scrapper Tough = 11.25%
Defender Tough = 15%
Controller Tough = 15%
Tanker Tough = 15%

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How many players have Tactics in their build by lvl 24?!

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Every Defender or Corruptor I've ever made

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Heh, same, though in my case that only works out to two defenders I've ever gotten to 24+.

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Read entire thread, they have been at the Melee Modifier since I3 apparently.

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Hm. That doesn't match my experience with them. I'll have to double-check the numbers

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And if they weren't, since the PPPs are supposed to be better than the APPs, why would you even ask this?

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Because "better" doesn't imply "twice as good".

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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.

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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.

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Will the Scrapper/Tanker APP attacks be moved to Melee as well, to match?

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Sorry but this just cant be right. There is no way 1 smoke grenade from a night widow is supposed to turn an entire team into Whiff Fest 2006.

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I don't experience this happening in Siren's, and I don't even run Tactics at that level. If you have a mission where you can replicate this, you might want to log your actual hit/miss rate over a few hundred attacks against a night widow and send the results of that to the devs. It's possible that they're spawning an alternate version of a Night Widow inside some missions that has a decimal point misplaced somewhere.

Another thing to check for is to see how many debuff icons show up. It's possible that the attacks are stacking when they aren't supposed to.

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*cough* You did note, before you jumped on the Submit button to make nasty comments, that the 8% figure was the final defensive buff from the 15% accuracy debuff that he estimated from the tests.

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You did read the full message of the person I was replying to before flying off the handle and assuming I was being nasty, right? You know, the guy complaining about his brain leaking out of his ears when I explained the multipliers?

There are people who don't like math. Acknowledging this isn't being nasty. It's kindly noting that the complete explanation of confidence intervals, z-values and p-values would generate reactions somewhere between pain and snoring, so there's going to have to be a certain amount of trust of the figures involved.


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No, seems you didn't. Maybe instead of attacking simply out of a need to feel big, you could be a little more dignified in future conversations.

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Healer, heal thyself. GP's misunderstanding of how ToHitDebuff works aside, the only significant number is how much a minion's final accuracy dropped -- in his tests, by about 8 percent, and although he didn't list error bars, his cited final accuracy and attack counts are enough to determine that it's going to be more or less +/- 5%. Maybe instead of attacking simply out of a need to feel big, you could be a little more dignified in future conversations.


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Denigration of others efforts without putting forth any of your own is little better than poo-pooing.

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I already explained exactly why it works that way, and exactly what the numbers are, and Castle confirmed them. Exactly what further effort do you want out of me?

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Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.

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Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA.

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Ah. First, he has the unslotted value listed as 8%, not 15%. Second, he only used about 500 attacks on a minion, with a target accuracy near 40%, which isn't sufficient to measure with any great accuracy. He got a value of around 8%, which with 500 attacks is a little better than 95% confident that the value is between 3% and 13% (which puts the expected value of 6.25% decently in the middle). For him to lock it down to actually being between 7% and 9% he'd need to test for 9,000 to 10,000 attacks.

If you didn't like the simple arithmetic from earlier, this is probably making your brain melt further, so I'll have to ask you to just take it on faith until you can take a college statistics course and get confidence levels explained to you.

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Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia.

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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.

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Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.


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Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.

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Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.

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Why, hello OmegaGuy! Heading out to PVP are you?
(nods)
Well there are some things you should know!

(1) Travel in groups
Heroes that are alone are easy pickings for villains in groups. Try to team with complete strangers, they'll keep you safe (nods)

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The last sentence is generally not true. Nothing will keep you safe. Travelling with groups makes you a little safer, though, so is worth doing whenever possible. Unfortunately, it's often hard to find a group that wants to do what you want to do.


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Sirens Call: This has no missions besides killing other villains for bounty, which you can trade for inspirations

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Incorrect. The primary goal of the zone is to win enough hotspots to gain zone control, which then unlocks temp powers. It's usually faster to just leave the zone to buy inspirations than to do it with bounty. Leaving the zone will zero your bounty, but actually lets you refill your tray, whereas it costs a full thousand bounty to collect a single inspiration as a reward. The only real advantage of bounty is to allow you to pick up a +3 SO out of a limited list of types when you reach 6000 bounty (a few hours of continuous play without leaving the zone, generally).


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Bloody Bay: This mission is to collect metor fragments and process them in a base so you can get a power to summon shivian
(Smiles)
But watch out, shivians can punch you into next tuesday. Bringing friends is always a good idea.

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Actually, the Shivans are the least of your threats here. Mostly, you'll get stalkered, or have trouble with the base defenses you have to beat down before you can process the ore. The best way to run the meteors, assuming you're the correct level to get missions in the zone, is to first run the patrol to get the stealth temp power, then stealth the meteors.


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Warburg: This missions involves getting a launch code so you can fire a rocket. But this area is extreamly vicious and can rip you in half without a good team
(clenchs teeth in a frown)
But the power is well worth the risk, for the rockets are very powerful when used right.....

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The rockets are fairly pathetic, actually. The nuke does less damage than a 9th-tier blaster power, though you can at least oneshot minions if you first drop the chem rocket, *then* the nuke, and manage to hit the same targets. This is made more annoying by the knockback effect in the rockets, which tends to scatter opponents, making this combo a little difficult to pull off. They also have fairly poor accuracy.

The bio rocket you actually use on yourself, and is a fairly pathetic self-buff, but has the saving grace of at least lasting a fairly long time (4 minutes) and being AoE, so you can buff up your entire team a little.

Even a chem+nuke combo will not reliably kill even squishies in PvP, too.


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(3)Stalkers and you: A stalkers assain strike can kill pretty much anything in about 1 or 2 hits, so becareful, AoE (or area of effect for those who dont know) can catch a stalker in mid-strike

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Incorrect. Stalker protections against AoE attacks are *huge* (hide alone is 37.5% *base*, going up to 60% slotted, plus the 25% base defense in PvP, plus whichever AoE protections are built into the set, and Stalker AoE defense powers give greater protection than scrapper AoE defense powers). You will be at the accuracy floor with AoE attacks against stalkers the vast majority of the time. If you can see a stalker before AS begins, use a single target attack with a very fast animation time to try to interrupt. You will only get one chance before AS passes the interruptible part of its animation (you'll have about half a second once it begins, generally, to hit the button). Staying in a team with force bubbles or autohit auras can help, but the pulse rate has to be extremely high for it to be reliable, and still won't save you from all stalkers. Autohit pets apparently do NOT break hide, so you will still get ASd standing in caltrops.

At higher levels, having several people on a team with stacked Tactics will help, as will having an Empathy or Sonic defender/controller who can stack Clear Mind or Clarity. Generally, this won't be available in either BB or Siren's, however.

The main problem with teaming is that teaming basically forces you to skip content and leave permanent unsightly blank spots in your contact listing. The CoV model is better in one way and worse in another than CoH: since contacts are released only one at a time, you don't get the unfinished contact syndrome, but on the other hand, you have to be even *more* careful about your leveling and influence rate, or you end up missing out on the special "hidden" contacts entirely, which I am told are of significant in-game importance.

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I'd like to point out that there is also a separate brawl table for temporary powers. You can find it in brawl index form here. While I'm mentioning it, that site is a wiki, so it's great for community keeping-information- together purposes.

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That wiki has an awesome collection of data... but the wiki software itself sucks

I've started dumping this information into my own wiki, based off of MediaWiki. Editing requires an account to prevent spambots from vandalizing the place (this has already happened to me a couple times), but I'll happily hand out an account to anyone here who PMs me with what they want their password to be (obviously, please do not send random strangers passwords that you have used elsewhere; come up with something separate for my wiki if you want to edit it).

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I'll also inject my opinion that it's a bit pointless for there to be separate ranged and melee brawl tables when they aren't used. All scrapper attacks are melee, even if they have range. All tanker, stalker, and brute attacks too. It doesn't matter for corruptors, blasters and a few others. Pretty much the only time you actually see this affecting ANYTHING is with defenders.

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I've restructured the tables on my end to split out the level 1-20 data from the stabilized L20+ range. This may make it easier to use.