This is going to turn into a massive flamewar, but I agree completely.
PvP is the only sustainable end-game...everything else just delays the boredom.
What blows my mind is that Co* is a game about Superheroes and Supervillains pitted against each other, and there seems to be some contention that it should be only Player superheroes vs. Non-Player villains and vice versa.
/signed to the above three statements
Wow, that explains why almost all of the population is running PvE content, and the PvP zones are almost empty most of the time.
Wait...
(Tip: the importance of PvP in a game designed from the ground-up to be based on PvP is not the same as the importance of PvP in a game designed for PvE. Also, claiming you know the population behaviour for your servers when you aren't a dev and have no access to that information makes your entire message suspect.)
I must admit without PvP I'm not sure I'd still be in the game.
I'm a latecomer to it myself, having "discovered" it maybe a year and 3 50s into the game. The first year I was occupied with PvE teaming and building a Top Ten SG on Justice.
I never "hated" PvP, though it was sometimes frustrating with PvE spec toons... I researched PvP builds, however, and asked advice of all the good PvPers I did know, and rather than [censored] about it I practiced and respeced and went from there.
Now I'm mostly rockin' the Heat Loss with my ice/cold/mace corruptor (my first from-the-get-go pvp toon) and PvP is a (bitter ice) blast 
Why is PvP fun?
- it's competitive
- it's social
- it's unpredictable
It just never gets old unlike, say, grinding newspaper missions. In fact, other than the RSF, I don't think I've actually done a mission in maybe 2 months 
Best of all there is a bigger learning curve than in PvE. I've been a "pvper" now for about 6 months, and I'd say I'm an "advanced intermediate" in terms of skill. So there's a long way to go and lots to learn (just figured out how to escape TK the other day for example) so it's all good.
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that explains why almost all of the population is running PvE content, and the PvP zones are almost empty most of the time.
Wait...
(Tip: the importance of PvP in a game designed from the ground-up to be based on PvP is not the same as the importance of PvP in a game designed for PvE. Also, claiming you know the population behaviour for your servers when you aren't a dev and have no access to that information makes your entire message suspect.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Folks have to run PvE content to get their characters up in levels for PvP, so even though I consider myself a PvPer -- I still have to spend 3 hours leveling for 1 hour of PvP. I don't see that as a reasonable excuse for it, either.
Tip: Unless you have those same numbers, your arguments are just as equally unfounded as any other's.
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that explains why almost all of the population is running PvE content, and the PvP zones are almost empty most of the time.
Wait...
(Tip: the importance of PvP in a game designed from the ground-up to be based on PvP is not the same as the importance of PvP in a game designed for PvE. Also, claiming you know the population behaviour for your servers when you aren't a dev and have no access to that information makes your entire message suspect.)
[/ QUOTE ]
numbers such as this: http://borkweb.com/story/007-of-the-...ld-of-warcraft
This: http://www.shadowsinmotion.com/news-...tion-revealed/
or this: http://www.mmogchart.com/
Then again, you may have meant comparitive anaylsis with sites such as this: http://www.mmorpg.com/index.cfm?fp=1024,768,993829437,20060129112952&bhcp=1
Some of sites are not printable here due to disclosure agreements. But no, I have no idea at all...
[ QUOTE ]
PVP isn't optional for COX's long term survival. The PVE is stale and most people in the anti pvp crowd turn to badge hunting just to keep themselves entertained. Most of the people I talked to had servers that went through a shock when the zone bugs effectively shut down pvp on most servers from november to february. Most people stopped logging in and serveral people quit, who are only now coming back. Since COX is a game of many alts, these people turned out to be a lot of toons people had known in other venues.
On one of the first four pages on this thread someone brought up that SWG had been pvp centric as it's end game and had then switched to pve for a bit. They incorrectly assumed that's what hurt that game. By contrast, in 2003, SWG had the biggest openning of any MMORPG which it lost by being eclipsed by WOW. It's numbers dropped overnight and half it's servers closed by becoming a grind game with Jedi and the CU. It numbers were harmed even worse by becoming even more PVE centric NGE. SWG had to suck up that PVP paid the bills to begin regrowing now.
While approaching 9 million paying subscribers, which is more than the Nelson rating of most tv shows, WOW has servers that are labeled PVE and Roleplaying, which have pvp zones and have pvp hot options. Eve Online, MXO, Guildwars, COX, Vanguard, and every other game have the pvp components. Warhammer, Age of Conan, Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising, Star Trek Online, Marvel, DC, Firefly Online, and World of Darkness Online, are being pre built with PVP in mind and that's every major game being released from 2007-2009.
PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
That's not me saying that. That's the entire video game industry saying that. They are saying that now. They are saying that through 2010 and quite possibly beyond.
In fact, PVE does the opposite of pay the bills. PVE only develops a core of players that burn through 3 month of development in a weekend. Does that make them happy? Not at all, they go on to cry on whatever forum board that another 3 months of development can't be done instantly to stop their boredom.
As much as the anti pvp crowd might stalk these forums and scream endlessly in the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder that they don't like pvp in this game. This game will have to have it and balance it to survive.
If the developers of this game ever get silly enough to listen to the screams of the anti pvp crowd, this game will have its life support plug pulled much sooner. Right now, without the balance issues being fixed, this game is expected to only edge out a suvivable profit by the time Marvel and DC come out. Paradoxically, NCSoft is developing Marvel and I'll bet real money it's being required to be absolutely balanced from the beginning.
PVP creates long time rivalries. PVP creates player driven content. PVP communities are the group that stay with a game for years in the highest numbers.
You might believe in your heart pvp doesn't pay the bills. But all the industrial side market research for the past two years says that you are saying the world is flat.
Here is your proof from just one major developer, watch all 7:26 minutes: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZOTRjWGxmjI
[/ QUOTE ]
QFTFT
Your my hero
[ QUOTE ]
PVP isn't optional for COX's long term survival. The PVE is stale and most people in the anti pvp crowd turn to badge hunting just to keep themselves entertained. Most of the people I talked to had servers that went through a shock when the zone bugs effectively shut down pvp on most servers from november to february. Most people stopped logging in and serveral people quit, who are only now coming back. Since COX is a game of many alts, these people turned out to be a lot of toons people had known in other venues.
On one of the first four pages on this thread someone brought up that SWG had been pvp centric as it's end game and had then switched to pve for a bit. They incorrectly assumed that's what hurt that game. By contrast, in 2003, SWG had the biggest openning of any MMORPG which it lost by being eclipsed by WOW. It's numbers dropped overnight and half it's servers closed by becoming a grind game with Jedi and the CU. It numbers were harmed even worse by becoming even more PVE centric NGE. SWG had to suck up that PVP paid the bills to begin regrowing now.
While approaching 9 million paying subscribers, which is more than the Nelson rating of most tv shows, WOW has servers that are labeled PVE and Roleplaying, which have pvp zones and have pvp hot options. Eve Online, MXO, Guildwars, COX, Vanguard, and every other game have the pvp components. Warhammer, Age of Conan, Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising, Star Trek Online, Marvel, DC, Firefly Online, and World of Darkness Online, are being pre built with PVP in mind and that's every major game being released from 2007-2009.
PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
That's not me saying that. That's the entire video game industry saying that. They are saying that now. They are saying that through 2010 and quite possibly beyond.
In fact, PVE does the opposite of pay the bills. PVE only develops a core of players that burn through 3 month of development in a weekend. Does that make them happy? Not at all, they go on to cry on whatever forum board that another 3 months of development can't be done instantly to stop their boredom.
As much as the anti pvp crowd might stalk these forums and scream endlessly in the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder that they don't like pvp in this game. This game will have to have it and balance it to survive.
If the developers of this game ever get silly enough to listen to the screams of the anti pvp crowd, this game will have its life support plug pulled much sooner. Right now, without the balance issues being fixed, this game is expected to only edge out a suvivable profit by the time Marvel and DC come out. Paradoxically, NCSoft is developing Marvel and I'll bet real money it's being required to be absolutely balanced from the beginning.
PVP creates long time rivalries. PVP creates player driven content. PVP communities are the group that stay with a game for years in the highest numbers.
You might believe in your heart pvp doesn't pay the bills. But all the industrial side market research for the past two years says that you are saying the world is flat.
Here is your proof from just one major developer, watch all 7:26 minutes: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZOTRjWGxmjI
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tl dr
GJ Ajax.
Very well-written, though... gotta love an arguement based in fact for once.
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Wow, that explains why almost all of the population is running PvE content, and the PvP zones are almost empty most of the time.
Wait...
[/ QUOTE ]
It also explains why every server is green except for two and the majority of PvE zones are empty "most of the time"...
Unless it's chocked full of articficial time-sinks or farming there is simply no way PvE content can keep up w/ players, there is an eventual terminal point. Some players just reach it faster than others.
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In fact, PVE does the opposite of pay the bills. PVE only develops a core of players that burn through 3 month of development in a weekend. Does that make them happy? Not at all, they go on to cry on whatever forum board that another 3 months of development can't be done instantly to stop their boredom.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said.
Whether people like it or not, PvP is the end game content.
You are right about PvP keeping the game alive in almost every MMO ever existed.
The only thing WoW does right is that the PvE part of the game is absolutely endless. It takes players endless amounts of time to complete every single thing you can possibly do in the PvE spectrum, and thats just with one class.
Also, PvE in WoW is actually challenging. The PvE in this game is an absolute joke when compared to WoW in terms of difficulty.
Instead of making PvE challenging in this game and actually implementing AI that is more intelligent than the current one, our devs just add more contacts, more missions with the same maps, and more badges to collect. Every new AV acts the exact same way all other AVs do, except they have different attacks. The only AV that is actually different from the rest is LR at the end of the STF, because you cant just go straight to killing him. And guess what, the AI is easily conquered against LR. Send a tanker in to grab aggro, the rest of the team takes the towers, then back to LR. I mean, I would imagine that some dev out there would think "Hmm, you think LR would notice the towers being destroyed, perhaps we can actually make this mission challenging," but no, its just attack the thing getting the most aggro on me forever, which is the tanker.
And I never understood the reasons for badge hunting after I got tired of it. Badges do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for you. At least in games with loot, the loot does something for you obviously. But the only "loot" or collectible things in this game are badges atm, until I9, and they do nothing for you. The only badges that actually benefit you are gladiators, but gladiator PvP is a joke. I can never understand why people badge hunt unless they are getting the accolades. The obvious is of course obsession, but do these hardcore badgers really ever step back and look at the uselessness of these badges?
I'll play Devil's Advocate here a bit. Technically, you could say everything about this game is useless. In 5 years when this game is gone and dead, will anyone remember the badges you got? Will anyone remember that really cool roleplaying thingy? Will anyone remember how your final battle in PvP went? Different strokes for different folks. Some people are attracted to combat, some are attracted to catgirl rping, and some are attracted to shiny objects.
((step off my badges son))
Great post laylyn.
One thing though. Cryptic is making the marvel game. Not NCsoft.
The never ending struggle as a dev...go for pve or pvp..
On one side, you dont want the task of getting to pvp too boring or too challenging or to...old?
On the otherside without pve there would be no way for you to get your powers and therefore you wouldnt be ableto pvp...
If you go for pvp then there is the issue of making it something people want to do. You could always make pvp helpful to others, like, if so and so does this there will be a huge buff for one side, like the non pvp areas to. DONT DEBUFF THE OTHER SIDE. That just makes people not want to pvp. Does having your charecter 15% do less damage and resist less damage make you want to pvp? No, it makes you want to go do something where you arent debuffed.
There is a fine line that the devs have to walk on, unfortunatly it seems, they decided to make their own line, making pve more important then pvp. PvE and PvP should go together well, not two rams butting heads. How many would be in favor of a pure only pvp area such as rv(that size) Without any of those weird other activities going on? Without those debuffs goin on? With some MAJOR impact on the rest of the game, such as a temp power as long as this side has killed this many people, and when the other side kills them for that same number, it is reset? And I mean if you were to be winning in the zone, it would give an effect to (if heroes winning) All of CoH. Such as a debt reducer? Every time you die its 15% debt off? Or regen? That is how I think pvp should be. Maybe I10 will bring the moon base, a pve zone, and then on the other side, pvp zone? And pure pvp, none of that debuff stuff.
None of what you say matters, because the zones, which pve'ers never go into are dead.
On the other hand, they can't get thier badges or run thier missions, because every time they pop into a pvp zone, there is someone chasing them down within 5 seconds of thier timer expiring.
Also, pvp is not part of keeping this game in business, because it just frustrates pve'ers who never enter the zones anyway. They then leave the game because of the existence of zones which they never enter, and that are never used "dead", but which contain badges that they cannot get because in fact they are not dead.
I agree with your basic point that PvP should be the main focus of a game that is founded for a long term playerbase. This is because, as you said, PvP requires a platform but then once that platform exists, it is self-generating content. PvE on the other hand requires Dev generated content that players will always quickly run through.
I have firsthand experience with this in my guild. DROW is a very hardcore group with teams in most MMOs. For a long time our WoW team did great with server and world firsts with loot, boss beating, etc. But then they hit a wall because there was simply no high end content that they hadn't beaten. So everything hinged on waiting for the next patch with new content to come out. What did they do while they were waiting for the patches? They either PvPed or they simply didn't play.
Our Vanguard team is already hitting a wall with Dev created PvE content and that game has only been out for a little while now. Devs simply cannot generate content at the same rate that players go through and get bored of content. Automated content generation cannot be done in a way that isn't repetitive right now. The only solution is PvP because the content is self-generating.
PvP pays the bills because PvP'ers are a player-driven community. In this way they are like roleplayers, because they make their own fun without much help from the game developers.
PvP hasn't really gotten a new, shiny toy in a while, but they are still playing their $15. The system is unbalanced, the zones are largely empty, and they have to deal with a small minority in their ranks polluting the way they are all perceived, but they pay their $15 because they are a community that drives itself forward.
PvE requires new stuff. It always has. It always will. And making the new stuff takes money. That's the tradeoff for retaining the PvE community and attracting new players to it.
PvE is like a risky investment. PvP is like printing money.
Cause honestly, you could have a PvP map that was blank with large polyhedrons to break up LoS. If skilled opponents were there, PvP would happen. The really good PvP'ers only need each other (and the occasional new recruit) to stay content and feel challenged. The nice textures and neat zones are a plus, but those are just icing on the PvP cake.
I do not think CoX would last long if PvE was abandoned, and I do not think CoX would remain profitable if PvP were abandoned. It's that what makes the two groups happy are very, very different. And speaking very strictly from a financial view, yes, PvP generates large amounts of money with a minimal investment.
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PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
[/ QUOTE ]
didn't get the wub you need in Castles thread so reposted it all here?
While your statement may be accurate for all MMOs (giving you the benefit of the doubt) - and possibly good advice for any new MMO in development - its not remotely accurate for the current income generation of CoH/V.
And there is no massive infusion of resources coming to recode 9 releases of software that had PvP to a game not designed for it balance wise, for a MMO that has clearly peaked.
It would be great to see PvP attract enough NEW sources of revenue to bump up the sub rate, but it hasn't happened yet, and NCSoft/Cryptic aren't going to piss off the majority player base (most of whom don't even read these forums) starving content in issue 11 and 12 to overhaul PvP and *hope* it brings enough new subs. So its bandaids, promises, and then MUO.
ps before you try to label me, not a PvP hater, a number of my alts dabble in PvP.
[ QUOTE ]
PvP hasn't really gotten a new, shiny toy in a while,
[/ QUOTE ]
we dont get toys, we get nerfed
PVP isn't optional for COX's long term survival. The PVE is stale and most people in the anti pvp crowd turn to badge hunting just to keep themselves entertained. Most of the people I talked to had servers that went through a shock when the zone bugs effectively shut down pvp on most servers from november to february. Most people stopped logging in and serveral people quit, who are only now coming back. Since COX is a game of many alts, these people turned out to be a lot of toons people had known in other venues.
On one of the first four pages on this thread someone brought up that SWG had been pvp centric as it's end game and had then switched to pve for a bit. They incorrectly assumed that's what hurt that game. By contrast, in 2003, SWG had the biggest openning of any MMORPG which it lost by being eclipsed by WOW. It's numbers dropped overnight and half it's servers closed by becoming a grind game with Jedi and the CU. It numbers were harmed even worse by becoming even more PVE centric NGE. SWG had to suck up that PVP paid the bills to begin regrowing now.
While approaching 9 million paying subscribers, which is more than the Nelson rating of most tv shows, WOW has servers that are labeled PVE and Roleplaying, which have pvp zones and have pvp hot options. Eve Online, MXO, Guildwars, COX, Vanguard, and every other game have the pvp components. Warhammer, Age of Conan, Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising, Star Trek Online, Marvel, DC, Firefly Online, and World of Darkness Online, are being pre built with PVP in mind and that's every major game being released from 2007-2009.
PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
That's not me saying that. That's the entire video game industry saying that. They are saying that now. They are saying that through 2010 and quite possibly beyond.
In fact, PVE does the opposite of pay the bills. PVE only develops a core of players that burn through 3 month of development in a weekend. Does that make them happy? Not at all, they go on to cry on whatever forum board that another 3 months of development can't be done instantly to stop their boredom.
As much as the anti pvp crowd might stalk these forums and scream endlessly in the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder that they don't like pvp in this game. This game will have to have it and balance it to survive.
If the developers of this game ever get silly enough to listen to the screams of the anti pvp crowd, this game will have its life support plug pulled much sooner. Right now, without the balance issues being fixed, this game is expected to only edge out a suvivable profit by the time Marvel and DC come out. Paradoxically, NCSoft is developing Marvel and I'll bet real money it's being required to be absolutely balanced from the beginning.
PVP creates long time rivalries. PVP creates player driven content. PVP communities are the group that stay with a game for years in the highest numbers.
You might believe in your heart pvp doesn't pay the bills. But all the industrial side market research for the past two years says that you are saying the world is flat.
Here is your proof from just one major developer, watch all 7:26 minutes: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZOTRjWGxmjI