Quote:
WoW sells because of a few things, none of which is PvP.|
Originally Posted by DarkMaster
LOL at you.
|
1) They've marketed their game outside of traditional "internet" venues, like television spots,
2) It runs on even lower-end hardware (like CoX),
3) They had cheap $2.00 demo discs at checkouts even at supermarkets, and
4) It's from Blizzard so it's got all the Diablo fanboys out there to draw an initial base from.
Once it started being the next "big thing" in gaming and everyone else had an account, people signed up. It's numbers grew. Had NOTHING to do with PvP. The way that PvP was implemented in CoX was the absolute best way, unlike WoW when you can get killed in PvE zones and have to avoid PvP if you don't want to. (FFXI was like that too)
I have also yet to see anyone actually say they joined CoX only because it had PvP.
PvP is just another feature of the game.
Quote:
You have seen the PvP community on WoW right? Or not? Its quite something.
|
Originally Posted by TXB03B
WoW sells because of a few things, none of which is PvP.
1) They've marketed their game outside of traditional "internet" venues, like television spots, 2) It runs on even lower-end hardware (like CoX), 3) They had cheap $2.00 demo discs at checkouts even at supermarkets, and 4) It's from Blizzard so it's got all the Diablo fanboys out there to draw an initial base from. Once it started being the next "big thing" in gaming and everyone else had an account, people signed up. It's numbers grew. Had NOTHING to do with PvP. The way that PvP was implemented in CoX was the absolute best way, unlike WoW when you can get killed in PvE zones and have to avoid PvP if you don't want to. (FFXI was like that too) I have also yet to see anyone actually say they joined CoX only because it had PvP. PvP is just another feature of the game. |
I beleive WoW is the only MMO to have sponsered PvP tournaments where you can win cash. Not just like 100 giftcards or a 6 month time card - we're talking like 30k for the winning team.
CoX PvP was so much more dynamic, fast, and interesting than WoW PvP currently is. If it had been fixed from the begining, CoX PvP could have possibly been the "Next Big Thing" That comes along to change MMO's.
But it was decided that CoX would be marketed as it is now. A Laid back, RP friendly PvE game that has PvP in it. Its work so far, but now that other RP friendly, laidback games are coming out (Not just CO, but others), this game will fade out eventually. How long? Who knows.
Quote:
Do you play any games outside of Cox? WoW has many servers devoted to PVP and gaming in general is devoted to the PVP experience. Feel free to pretend reality does not exist , however.
|
Originally Posted by TXB03B
WoW sells because of a few things, none of which is PvP.
1) They've marketed their game outside of traditional "internet" venues, like television spots, 2) It runs on even lower-end hardware (like CoX), 3) They had cheap $2.00 demo discs at checkouts even at supermarkets, and 4) It's from Blizzard so it's got all the Diablo fanboys out there to draw an initial base from. Once it started being the next "big thing" in gaming and everyone else had an account, people signed up. It's numbers grew. Had NOTHING to do with PvP. The way that PvP was implemented in CoX was the absolute best way, unlike WoW when you can get killed in PvE zones and have to avoid PvP if you don't want to. (FFXI was like that too) I have also yet to see anyone actually say they joined CoX only because it had PvP. PvP is just another feature of the game. |
Unofficial Brownnoser of PWNZ
I kiss the Devs [censored]! -Perfect_Pain
Quote:
WoW has a bigger userbase to draw from, too, and has the resources to do more specialization. |
Originally Posted by Poison_Pink
WoW has many servers devoted to PVP and gaming in general is devoted to the PVP experience. Feel free to pretend reality does not exist , however.
|
PvP is a feature, not the only draw to a game and don't confuse drawing subscribers with retaining subscribers. People being drawn to CoX just for PvP are very few, and very far between and as I said, I prefer CoX's PvP implementation than any other MMO I've played.
The majority of players do not like PvP at all and very content sticking with PvE content. So, the $64000 question is why don't more people like PvP in CoX?
If it were as critical as you say, you'd expect the developers to spend more time on it.
Quote:
they also are a pc game company that produced some of the most popular PC games to date, Warcraft being one of them.|
Originally Posted by TXB03B
WoW has a bigger userbase to draw from, too, and has the resources to do more specialization.
|
I always enjoy it when people take WoW and compair it to any other MMO. What people fail to recognize is most of its playership came in originally because of the name, a name which had been established through three games made for PC. Before WoW it was almost unheard of to reach a subscriber base even 20% of what WoW currently holds. Now WoW comes around with its millions of subs and ever mmo in creation is trying to clone it to get even a small percentage of its playerbase. Then you have games like this that are small and cater to a diffrent group of gamers.
People should quit confusing the two and compairing them. Its just silly.
WoW Was made with the intent of expanding the PVP section of the game. Over the years they made their share of screwups to pvp (most wont remember) but they had the funds to tweak and play with it. Hell Im sure there is a whole team of people devoted to just pvp content there. They have the money and manpower to do that.
COX was made originally (from my understanding) with the idea that PVE content would be focused on as its main aspect of play. Only later did they open up to pvp. With the way pvp has been over the years of its exsistance I dont think there was ever a main focus for it. Even if there was I dont think they have the man power to devote to both pvp and PVE at the same time. If this game HAD a pvp focus Atlas Park/Mercy Island would have PC villains and Heros swarming all over each others maps (come to think of it a pvp bank mish would be fun as hell).
Either way, i WOULD like to see some more love to pvp happen, however people really should remember that WoW and CoX are totally diffrent games. WoW is freakishly huge (With a LARGE number of rude players) and CoX is smaller.
Quote:
I think the problem is that no one has been able to answer that 64000 dollar question. From top down view, here is my take (And I can post pictures now too..I like these new forums):|
Originally Posted by TXB03B
The majority of players do not like PvP at all and very content sticking with PvE content. So, the $64000 question is why don't more people like PvP in CoX? |
Captain obvious statement: All MMO players are drawn into the game by what appeals to them. Their appeal of said game and what it can offer may change over time, but it mostly follows the bell curve below:
Most people fall within the middle of the curve, either preferring PvP a little more than PvE or the opposite. The two extreme ends, Those that only PvP (See Test server Ladder players in i12 for details) vs the People who live and breathe their character in game to a point of borderline insanity (See Virtue Pocket D for details)
PvP 1.0 favors the left, no doubt (See point 1 in diagram above). I think the devs tried to make PvP right smack dab in the middle (See point 2). Its an admirable and Ambitious goal, but very hard to achieve and can cause your changes to be not liked by either side.
Where the devs failed (In my opinion) was they tried to take a point on the right (See point 3) and say "If we can make PvP appeal to this group of people, it should move the balance up to the middle and we can then add in rewards/innovations because more people will enjoy it" Again, An admirable goal, but the logic is flawed.
In this scenario, if PvP was moved to the middle, it's really only going to appeal to the casual. The people who didn't like it before might try it out, but the reasons they didn't like it might still remain. The root cause of people not liking PvP was because its not PvE.
PvE is linear. you click your enemies, assess their weakness and attack. Debuff AVs, AoE hold big groups, its all linear. The only difficulty is what you make for yourself - as in "How many mobs you take at once" or "The level of the mobs" or "What teammates should I bring". The player is in complete control.
PvP is dynamic. You still click you enemies and assess their weaknesses and attack, but the enemies are doing the same to you. Your enemies are intelligent and will learn. Their is only one difficulty and it's already set to hard. The player is only in control of themselves.
Some people don't like that. If you are on the PvE side of the curve down towards the hardcore area, you picked your character because you had an idea you wanted to explore. In the world where you are in control, he may be an unstoppable juggernaut. But when you have an enemy that is analyzing your weaknesses, you may find your character inferior.
This is why fight club has become so popular among the new PvP crowd. People want to see themselves fight someone else just like the fight PvE mobs. They make rules, stand and fight, one wins. You're still in control because you can pick when you fight, you have a say in what rules are laid out and you have the ability to pick who you fight.
What the devs did was make it so the players have some control of the pace of PvP. They can control when their opponent is forced to fight (Suppression), they can control how long they can sustain a fight (Heal decay) and they can control how much negative effects are put on them at any given time (DR). The reason this failed, in my opinion, is because people who are on the left don't want to be controlled. They don't want others to be controlled either, they want a dynamic opponent. They want an opponent who can adapt to what they are doing and counter. There was a certain rush in countering an opponent in the old PvP, now its almost like Im watching a movie at 1/4th the speed. This also failed because people on the right don't want the controls changed when they are "set." If a group of people attacks a fight club match in a zone, that is breaking the controls they set. They will get mad and not want to PvP because their controls are being broken.
All of the above is just my opinion based on nearly 10 issues of PvP. I have drawn on my experiences from being a newbie who hated PvP because his tank died really quickly, to a person who was willing to try it out because we had nothing better to do, to a person who leveled up a new character specifically for pvp, to a person who lead a PvP group on test, to a person who beta'd the new PvP, and finally, to a person who is disappointed in how something that was so fun has turned into something not. As a nerd, I lived and breathed the old PvP. I would sit at work and think of crazy lineups to run. My group would mentor people in zones and switch sides if things got unfair (Sometimes dividing us amongst both teams so that it was fun for everyone). I wasn't the best, but I still enjoyed it.
Most of my posts will come off as "high and mighty" when I talk about the old PvP because I have seen it all. Their isn't a single PvP situation in this gamethat someone can describe that I haven't personally experienced. I have a hard time taking people's reasoning for disliking the old PvP system when their statements are completely counter to what I have experienced. Its the same reason other old time PvPers come off as jaded and "Rude," Because its impossible for us, as experienced players, to understand the statements that are blatantly ignorant.
Ill close with this question: If you like the new PvP over the old, state why?
Good post.
It unfortunately misses one issue: no matter what is done some folks will NEVER like pvp.
There are folks that just don't like competition at all.
Trying to lure those folks to pvp has been one of the epic mistakes in this game's history.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Liberty Server - While I admit to playing more for PvP than PvE at present, it took almost 3 years to reach that point so I don't agree with the summation of the OP & I know many who feel the same. That is still an opinion but if I need to look at what people are doing for the most part I only see RV having anywhere near an active population, the other PvP zones are sparsely populated, if at all, while I can usually find a dozen people in at least 3 PvE zones not including Atlas Park.
Unless this is an aberation I don't see the numbers adding up to be pro-PvP, even taking into consideration that there are toons in AP trying to level for PvP (I being one of them).
I also suspect once i16 comes out I will be back to PvE a lot more than the last few months.
My 1.5 cents.
Quote:
very good point, I missed that part. Yes, there are some who will exist outside the curve (Upper right corner area). Trying to cater to people who are well outside the balance of the curve is probably the quickest way to have this game sunset.
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Good post.
It unfortunately misses one issue: no matter what is done some folks will NEVER like pvp. There are folks that just don't like competition at all. Trying to lure those folks to pvp has been one of the epic mistakes in this game's history. |
Quote:
If this were true wouldn't everyone PvP after they have gotten at least one 50. Clearly, they do not.
|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Well said.
Whether people like it or not, PvP is the end game content. |
Quote:
Nope, most people just gloss over it and go roll a new toon, or they get badges and then get bored and leave, or they never hit 50 in the first place. Whether you choose to believe it or not, CoX lacks real and substantial PvE endgame content - a few TFs and a raid don't really count. The Abandoned Sewer Trial and Eden Trial were cool but those are from the days when the level cap was 40 - and they're both kind of like the RSF in that you either breeze through it or fail horribly with very little middle ground.|
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
If this were true wouldn't everyone PvP after they have gotten at least one 50. Clearly, they do not.
|
Those that get tired of PvE do two things - turn to PvP, or quit. A year ago, I couldn't understand why people would PvP in an MMO - after all, that's what an FPS is for, right? Well, I started to get bored of PvE content and I started watching duels and team matches on Justice (I remember a 2v2 tournament where Ajax and Aura transferred toons to Justice to take a crack at a 500 million inf prize). I began to level a character specifically for PvP (I'd been PvPing on mostly PvE or hybrid builds for a few months on and off before then) and whaddaya know, two days after he hit 50, I13 went into beta. I largely shrugged it off but I still wish we could have a few of the aspects of I12 back.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Interesting graphics, but no way of telling how accurate it actually describes anything. Pretending for a moment the shape of the curve itself is not that far off from reality, I'd place your point 2 far into PvE-land, somewhere around 2 on the x-axis. Point 3 would perhaps represent semi-regular PvP'ers but hardly represent the proportional share of the playerbase they constitute. The vast majority of players in this game do PvE, almost exclusively. The "hardcore" genre (silly name, but lets pretend its hardcore to sit inside all day and play games) is prevalent for PvP and a pretty much a requirement.
That said your conclusions aren't that different from my experience. PvP here hasn't caught much general player interest. Any general statement about what other people like and why is guesswork at best, so I'll refrain from this.
Consider however, that there does exist strict PvP-games (in my mind: FPS, online RTS) where there still are casual players that can enter the playfield and have fun without even winning. A mixed game such as Warhammer where a player can choose to go either straight PvE or PvP to level-cap also have plenty of casual players that venture into PvP-zones without caring much about min/maxing equipment, stats in general or winning - and they seem to be having fun.
What is the difference between those who do PvP in CoX, and those who don't, then? Skipping the general explanation about how different people get kicks from different stimuli; the numbers game behind everything seems to be what keeps the PvP-population low. Someone playing 15 hours per week probably doesn't have the interest to get down and gritty with numbers and if they don't, the chances of getting a match out of someone who's crunching numbers 15 hours per week offline is slim to none. Note I say getting, not winning. With the current system, the casual guy will be three clicks from a defeat.
So why can other PvP games keep the ever-losing players in their playerbase? Where do those players find their natural-highs? Most importantly for a long-term establishment of a solid PvP playerbase; how can this game provide it?
As I perceive it, this is a pretty much unreachable goal within the City of...-games, which I find a pity. The many ways to customize your own character leads to a very high variation in performance in the hostile environment that PvP is. With casuality comes "just for fun"-powers. Slotting a little bit off the bat when something seems to be missing. Bringing this into an environment of specialized players with a high interest in in-game mechanics will inevitably lead to defeat.
That is also one (if not the) of the greatest weaknesses in this game; any character built without specific competition in mind will have lost as soon as they zone into the PvP-environment. The player behind the character realizes this, in whatever words they may choose or whereever they put the blame and leave, often forever. Why waste the few hours of play they get on something that isn't fun to them? This is something that the attacking camp often can't or won't admit; those who leave at that point wanted to PvP for fun, not to be an endorphine-junkie looking for the next kick.
A guess would be that demography in the playerbase has had impact on PvP in general as well; there aren't many players (proportionally) who belong to the stereotype for PvP here compared to other games. If there were, the PvP zone populations would most likely be higher.
Changes in I13 was probably meant as an attempt to attack this omnipresent problem; a way to try to reduce the gaps. It did pretty much the opposite, enforcing another numbers game on top on the existing without changing any outcomes. Those interested enough kept spending a lot of their free time building, testing, training. Those who weren't still have builds for what they perceive as fun, still paying and playing the hours per week they did before.
Other games that do succeed in the more forgiving attitude towards gear, style of play and thought put into choices of powers have a couple of things in common. All enemy players pose a real threat; you have some random mechanism in the damage dealt and your character isn't unique. The forced control on the way powers/skills/weaponry/tanks/etc work does much to narrow the gap between extreme outliers in time spent PvP'ing without leaving everyone with Brawl. Doing so in this game would kill part of its huge appeal (opinion, but customizing seems popular among the ones I play with), so anything aiming for such an effect is a very bad idea - which I13 proved.
So, just realized this "quick reply" to the questionable diagram (assuming the underlying area would represent the entire playerbase which seemed to be the case) got into a long rant. I really would like to like PvP here; I play plenty of other games with it where the pace is high and you get oneshotted by enemy artillery without a chance to respond. For the longevity of the game, it would be good but hardly crucial with a healthy PvP-system. It's a bit sad that a game like Battlefield: Heroes (free FPS) give the players more of a superhero feel to it, handles stealth better and is way more accepting towards new players. I miss the one-shotting in there, though.
And not English, so please complain on grammar elsewhere.
PvP allows for the best "create an Arch-Villian" content of any MMO. Champ Online can't compare with the robust nature of the swarms of AVs one character can create in RV.
Plus no amount of coding of some AI driven AV can match the "special" dialog that spews from your newly created AVs. Gone is the stale: "I'll get you next time Mega Awesome Man!" Never have I heard Lord Recluse say: "F**K You! I'm gonna get my lvl 50 and my buds and we're gonna F**K YOU!". Sure thing Recluse... I'll bring the beer and lube.
Also, one can't beat the sense of being stalked by your AVs toadies while you are thumbing your sparring partner under Atlas. Ah, PvP... making virtual rage-aholics happy across the globe.
"You sir, have never been in a hammer fight, that much is clear."
-Blast_Chamber
*yeah, I quoted myself.
Damn.. I vote for you and your OP.
Quote:
Of course, this all assumes people WILL get tired of PvE. Which, in 2 years, I have yet to. I don't think I will ever set foot into a PvP zone or arena match for anything but a badge or two.
|
Originally Posted by macskull
Nope, most people just gloss over it and go roll a new toon, or they get badges and then get bored and leave, or they never hit 50 in the first place. Whether you choose to believe it or not, CoX lacks real and substantial PvE endgame content - a few TFs and a raid don't really count. The Abandoned Sewer Trial and Eden Trial were cool but those are from the days when the level cap was 40 - and they're both kind of like the RSF in that you either breeze through it or fail horribly with very little middle ground.
Those that get tired of PvE do two things - turn to PvP, or quit. A year ago, I couldn't understand why people would PvP in an MMO - after all, that's what an FPS is for, right? Well, I started to get bored of PvE content and I started watching duels and team matches on Justice (I remember a 2v2 tournament where Ajax and Aura transferred toons to Justice to take a crack at a 500 million inf prize). I began to level a character specifically for PvP (I'd been PvPing on mostly PvE or hybrid builds for a few months on and off before then) and whaddaya know, two days after he hit 50, I13 went into beta. I largely shrugged it off but I still wish we could have a few of the aspects of I12 back. |
I don't PvP, but I agree that the game needs to have a decent PvP option for the long-term. I think that players should have the option to get experience and drops for PvP play. The rewards should be equivalent to PvE play, yet exploits have to be prevented.
The problem with PvP for most PvE players is that the powers are set up for players to be able to destroy most PvE enemies in mere seconds. The original PvP experience was getting ganked in seconds by a gang of thugs in Sirens Call, or endlessly circling the zone trying to engage enemies who fled immediately because they weren't able to overwhelm an individual and gank them, or getting one-shotted by a stalker who TPed them into caltrops. This was very boring.
Now the devs have made some radical changes to the PvP mechanics in an attempt to correct those problems and level the playing field. But the PvPers apparently hate the changes and want the old PvP rules back. Everyone hates travel suppression and the healing changes, etc. The solutions so far are not appealing to a very large segment of the player base. Nobody seems happy.
This is the inherent tension with PvP: you don't want to get ganked in two seconds flat, but if you make it more survivable players just run away when the going gets tough. And if you make it hard to escape, then players don't really like diving into death traps from which there is no escape. So lots of players don't even try PvP.
The trick is to make the rewards for success greater than the perceived penalty for failure. The tack the devs have taken is to essentially prohibit the normal (PvE) use of the powers. They have inhibited or marginalized the powers that cause the "problems" with PvP: healing doesn't work as it does in PvE, holds don't work the same way, travel doesn't work the same way, etc.
Perhaps a new approach is needed. Instead of coercing specific behavior by modifying powers, it might be more better to reward desired behavior and punish undesired behavior.
For example, if the devs want players to stand and fight, rather than preventing players from fleeing with travel suppression, perhaps fleeing should incur some kind of penalty while standing and taking it incurs a reward.
The trick, of course, is to prevent exploitative behavior that gives excessive rewards to players who are taking no risks or gaming the system.
Having some goal other than just ganking other players would help draw in PvE players. The minigame in RV is interesting and comes close to what I'm thinking of, but the problem is that nothing controls the balance of forces -- it's an open zone and whoever brings more firepower wins.
What I'm thinking of is a central PvP server that hosts instanced missions with a concrete goal. Teams from any of the live servers could register to start one of these missions. The central PvP server would match that team up against another team of the same size and similar level and start the mission. Using a centralized PvP server would be key, just like the single market server -- that way small population servers could get PvP missions just like large pop servers. A team from Triumph might be playing a team from Freedom. (Obviously a lot of technical issues would have to be ironed out.)
The kinds of missions would be similar to what's in the arena (have some number of wins), or they could be like regular missions with a goal like defeat PvE bosses and whoever gets the most bosses wins. Or they could be like RV, or any number of other "capture the flag" scenarios.
You would get real experience and influence for these missions. The winners would get more rewards than the losers.
Combining aspects of PvE and PvP play would interest a lot of PvE players. And having a central PvP server would really help the currently small population of PvPers.
Every issue you pointed out with PvP can be solved by teaming.
I wish we had some kind of Queue system similar to Warhammer where newer people would get randomly matched on teams with experienced PvPers. They would learn the ropes and eventually migrate into the zones to try it out by themselves or with their own team.
But 1v a team isn't the problem with PvP, its the "1" part thinking that they should even stand a chance by themselves against a team.
I do like your ideas though
Quote:
I joined CoX only because it has PvP. With PvP slowly dying, I find my interest waning.
|
Originally Posted by TXB03B
I have also yet to see anyone actually say they joined CoX only because it had PvP.
PvP is just another feature of the game. |
Quote:
your logic is bad. You are assuming everyone will eventually play the end game content because they hit 50. However some may not even be interested in the end game content. |
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
If this were true wouldn't everyone PvP after they have gotten at least one 50. Clearly, they do not.
|
PvP is the Platypus of contents in most MMOs; as it is both content and end game content, so it is particularly important to the survival of a game.
Quote:
PvP is a feature that I look for in every MMO I play. I treat PvP like end game content. If CoX didn't have PvP I wouldn't play it, as I often determine the health of a game by the health of the PvP system and its community.|
Originally Posted by TXB03B
WoW has a bigger userbase to draw from, too, and has the resources to do more specialization.
PvP is a feature, not the only draw to a game and don't confuse drawing subscribers with retaining subscribers. People being drawn to CoX just for PvP are very few, and very far between and as I said, I prefer CoX's PvP implementation than any other MMO I've played. The majority of players do not like PvP at all and very content sticking with PvE content. So, the $64000 question is why don't more people like PvP in CoX? If it were as critical as you say, you'd expect the developers to spend more time on it. |
The majority of people do not like PvP in this game because PvP is largely disassociated with the rest of the game.
CoX's problem is simple. The developers don't treat PvP like end game content or any other content. Because of this PvP has suffered and will continue to suffer untill they realize that it is just as important if not more than most other content.
There is an enormous desire to be able to duel people in the open streets, this is PvP. However, why is this treated differently than zone or Arena PvP?
Because it keeps with the theme of the game and it is not removed from the rest of the game.
PvP is just about the only content that can't be finished over a three day weekend.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Laylyn
In fact, PVE does the opposite of pay the bills. PVE only develops a core of players that burn through 3 month of development in a weekend. Does that make them happy? Not at all, they go on to cry on whatever forum board that another 3 months of development can't be done instantly to stop their boredom. |
I agree with most of your post. However, I have been playing the game for over three years without touching pvp a single time. Keep in mind that if devs only work on pvp then the pve side will go to sh**. If PvE is no fun, lvling new guys up will be no fun and THAT certainly will kill the game. Nobody is gonna spend countless hours lvling a new guy up if it is no fun, even if the pvp at the end is great.
(I have started playing pvp over the past 3 months)
WoW isn't a particularly new game, but all it's done over the past few years is grow, grow, and grow.
It really is a shame... the PvP in this game could have been completely revolutionary. The system had so much potential, but after years of neglect, and the final blow being i13, the game's PvP now lies face down in the dirt. It's not anything revolutionary or groundbreaking at all.