[ QUOTE ]
Guess what WOW had PVP from ground up day one DAOC which still has about the same subs as COX was built ground up with PVP
UO which is still going after like 10 years has PVP ground up.
None of them had it shoehorned in after the fact. COX PVP is going to do nothing for subs because it was shoehorn into a system that was not built for pvp.
Sorry since the empty arenas in I4 to what ever patch you want to talk about has had basically empty pvp zones
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yeah, that's why it would probably be a good thing if they came out with an expansion or maybe a new game with the CoH engine but specificly tuned around PvP
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Guess what WOW had PVP from ground up day one DAOC which still has about the same subs as COX was built ground up with PVP
UO which is still going after like 10 years has PVP ground up.
None of them had it shoehorned in after the fact. COX PVP is going to do nothing for subs because it was shoehorn into a system that was not built for pvp.
Sorry since the empty arenas in I4 to what ever patch you want to talk about has had basically empty pvp zones
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yeah, that's why it would probably be a good thing if they came out with an expansion or maybe a new game with the CoH engine but specificly tuned around PvP
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PSSSSST devs, looking for a new game? engine is already built 
[ QUOTE ]
numbers such as this: http://borkweb.com/story/007-of-the-...ld-of-warcraft
This: http://www.shadowsinmotion.com/news-...tion-revealed/
or this: http://www.mmogchart.com/
Then again, you may have meant comparitive anaylsis with sites such as this: http://www.mmorpg.com/index.cfm?fp=1024,768,993829437,20060129112952&bhcp=1
[/ QUOTE ]
You threw some stats up there to support your case. SO lets just work with those.
The mmorpg.com page. well when you click on the player posts on both CoH (1348 of them) and CoV (405) of them, they dont seem to wash for you. I read through 200 villain posts and found about 15 that even mentioned PvP while the majority mentioned fun, and character creations and costumes and power variety and ease of play. The same demographic trend broke out for the CoH posts. No hue and cry for PvP, not even a wimper of complaint about the existing system.
Now lets take the MMOGCHART: Good numbers. CoX experienced their startup spike, another in around the April May timeframe of 2005, and another on release of CoV. Each time it leveled back down, including the current trend to return back to the point before the release of CoV. So in essence the statistics you pointed out to support your case do not show that the CoX playerbase has an interest in PvP. Those stats do point out that some games that have PvP have large subsciber bases. It seems especially interesting that since CoX is the only superhero game in town (currently) that there would be this lack of upward trending if PvP was so important.
We shall see if this bears out when MUO comes online. Many CoX players PVE and PvP alike will roll over to see what its about. Some will stay some will come back. If they have PvP and it is "better" than in CoX and their subscribers blow through the roof, your point will have been made. If not, it will cement what the majority of the players of CoX, not the game magazines or the PvP minority say . . . CoX is PvE.
Peace and axle grease.
High Beam - 50 Blaster Energy/Ice - 1228 Badges
Munitions Mistress - 50 Mercs/Traps
Many Other 50's, Too Many Alts, All On Freedom
Just Because You Can, Doesn't Mean You Should!
[ QUOTE ]
PVP isn't optional for COX's long term survival. The PVE is stale and most people in the anti pvp crowd turn to badge hunting just to keep themselves entertained.
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Heh.
If the PVE is stale as you claim, why am I perma-subscribed to this game until it shuts down? Every supergroup and villain group I am in is almost uniquely PVE. We make new costumes, new alts to see powers we haven't experienced and content we've skipped. The PvE in this game is awesome. So many different factions, each with its own agenda and each with a history.
I and the SGs I am in can literally rescue the Jewel of Hera or do the same newspaper missions over and over because we're here for that. We get together and pow the bad guys and do task forces and get new costumes and herd up Freaks and Ninjas and have a blast doing it. 
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the people I talked to had servers that went through a shock when the zone bugs effectively shut down pvp on most servers from november to february. Most people stopped logging in and serveral people quit, who are only now coming back. Since COX is a game of many alts, these people turned out to be a lot of toons people had known in other venues.
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Of the people I know that have left for WoW, most of them claim the high-end raid content and such as their reasons. None of them are PvPing at all. Now, I do have friends that DO PvP and such but generally there are such large queues (this speaks in your favour! ) that they end up PVEing in the meantime.
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While approaching 9 million paying subscribers, which is more than the Nelson rating of most tv shows, WOW has servers that are labeled PVE and Roleplaying, which have pvp zones and have pvp hot options. Eve Online, MXO, Guildwars, COX, Vanguard, and every other game have the pvp components. Warhammer, Age of Conan, Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising, Star Trek Online, Marvel, DC, Firefly Online, and World of Darkness Online, are being pre built with PVP in mind and that's every major game being released from 2007-2009.
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Sure why not? You're obviously smarter if you try to appeal to a wider base. If you can get money out of PvPers then that's good business. Problem is the PvPers are more likely to hop to another game that, in their opinion, has better and more 'hardcore' PvP. Witness the exodus this game will experience when Fury or Warhammer Online go live.
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PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
That's not me saying that. That's the entire video game industry saying that. They are saying that now. They are saying that through 2010 and quite possibly beyond.
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That...I'll have to argue with. Let's take this game, it has what, 140,000 active subs? Let's assume each player vs. player advocate has 3 accounts. For that statement to be accurate, there would have to be...30,000 - 40,000 player vs. player enthusiasts in this game (x3 accounts for 90,000-120,000 subs) for this to be accurate...That seems like a lot more than reality shows with all due respect. I'd expect the PvPers in this game number...5,000-10,000 subs, perhaps double.
I know I have an account, my friends have accounts they keep active for the PvE. Most of us have City of Villains and City of Heroes and go through the content in both.
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In fact, PVE does the opposite of pay the bills. PVE only develops a core of players that burn through 3 month of development in a weekend. Does that make them happy? Not at all, they go on to cry on whatever forum board that another 3 months of development can't be done instantly to stop their boredom.
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Ehhh...I don't see people crying for new content to be honest. This game has enough content on it that to experience it all, it would take close to a year or so (ok perhaps 4-5 months) to do each story arc, each task force, visit each zone and do each contact.
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As much as the anti pvp crowd might stalk these forums and scream endlessly in the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder that they don't like pvp in this game. This game will have to have it and balance it to survive.
If the developers of this game ever get silly enough to listen to the screams of the anti pvp crowd, this game will have its life support plug pulled much sooner. Right now, without the balance issues being fixed, this game is expected to only edge out a suvivable profit by the time Marvel and DC come out. Paradoxically, NCSoft is developing Marvel and I'll bet real money it's being required to be absolutely balanced from the beginning.
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I hate to break this to you but the Devs have been listening to "us" for quite some time now. Look at the new issue:
-Hamidon revised - PvE
-Statesman Task Force - PvE
-Inventions, Recipes - PvE based with an outlet to PvP
-Quality of Life additions are also PvEcentric for the most part.
Now, the Devs clearly want you to stay as well so they make changes to some powers (like the caging ones) and offer invention recipes (since they know PvPers will want these to get an edge) but, in my opinion, the City of Heroes PvP cannot sustain this game on its own. Not with games with reputedly better PvP focus from devs on the horizon.
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PVP creates long time rivalries. PVP creates player driven content. PVP communities are the group that stay with a game for years in the highest numbers.
You might believe in your heart pvp doesn't pay the bills. But all the industrial side market research for the past two years says that you are saying the world is flat.
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I'll concede the rivalries for sure. But I'll respectfully disagree on the latter content. Come on, how many pvpers has my own server lost to WoW, Fury and other games. PvPers tend to have the least brand loyalty in my opinion. They're likely to spend more and in that manner you are entirely correct. But they're unlikely to commit to a game for the long-haul since they burn through the content so quickly.
[ QUOTE ]
Here is your proof from just one major developer, watch all 7:26 minutes: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZOTRjWGxmjI
[/ QUOTE ]
I watched about 2 minutes of that and got bored to be honest. But absolutely that proves your point as far as that game is concerned.
Hey, it's a great time for you PvPers in this game. There is more focused Dev attention, a Committee has been formed and events coming as we speak.
I hope you and your friends continue to build rivalries and such well into the end of this year.
Meanwhile, I have costumes to design, badges to hunt and alts to roll.
All the best!
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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And I never understood the reasons for badge hunting after I got tired of it. Badges do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for you. At least in games with loot, the loot does something for you obviously. But the only "loot" or collectible things in this game are badges atm, until I9, and they do nothing for you. The only badges that actually benefit you are gladiators, but gladiator PvP is a joke. I can never understand why people badge hunt unless they are getting the accolades. The obvious is of course obsession, but do these hardcore badgers really ever step back and look at the uselessness of these badges?
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I might as well address this. Not everything has to be immediately useful or whatnot to bring pleasure to a person. Hell, some people in the real world might have their bottlecap or keychain collections...nothing incredible but there's something tied to each.
For me, I can remember exactly how each of my alts got their badges...who I was teamed with, how long it took, whether it was a farm or I faceplanted in a zone, whether they were annoying...they're something you can do in your downtime, some of them involve combat, and they're available without interfering on other player activities.
Badges are a big reason I'm still here to be honest.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
I tend to agree mostly with the OP. Im not a numbers guy, and im not going to compare CoX with any other MMO subscriptions wise. However, i do strongly believe PvP can increase the longevity of a game. It may or may not be the only way to increase it, as i think games like WoW would still be successfull if it had no PvP servers.
I think PvP right now, really is the only content in CoX that doesnt grow old.
Sure, the STF and the new hami will be cool....until its completed a couple of times. The biggest thing that bothers me, is that i can litterly complete, and run through all the content of one issue before a new issue is out.
To me, i think that is a huge problem that CoX has. Sometimes, i can run through all the content in a matter of days, or weeks. I think that is what gives many many players, pvpers, and pvpers alike that Stale feeling. Other folks may take the whole 3-4 months of each issue to reach their goals etc. But for alot of us vets that have many many toons already at lvl 50, the leveling grind is just simply tiresome. Same maps, same mission set ups, and very little challenge. I mean seriously, i have 20 level 50's of my own right now, and i have about 3-4 toons that are not far off. Im done Pling, im done grinding. I want to play my current characters and experience something challenging and unique.
Unfortunetely, the only thing i find challenging is PvP. I wish i could fall in love with PvE again, i really do. But if the developers can't develop more content to keep me busy, and end this tiresome wait for new toys, im not going to stick around, unless there is enough PvP to keep my interest.
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GJ Ajax.
Very well-written, though... gotta love an arguement based in fact for once.
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too bad most of it is conjecture, especially relative to CoH. Great rebutals in this thread though by High-Beam and Neuronia
When Cox has gone the way of the Dodo I think what we will cling to was.
1) How cool the Character generator was.
2) How much potential there was.
When I got involved in COH it wasn't because of the promise of pvp, it was because I could be a comic book hero. If you had mentioned pvp to me I would of shrugged. When pvp came to the game I went to test with friends and mixed it up but then I realized, well "I wasn't doing anything" my heroes were spending money and I was spending time but I wasn't advancing. When I came to that realization pvp went onto the back burner to simmer, LOL why would I pvp when I could make more heroes and still had not reached 50!
Well I reached 50 and like so many others fell into a funk. My main wasn't going to get any better. He was all he was ever going to be. So I delved some more into pvp, it provided a nice distraction...
Till I got my feet wet again pve.
PVP will for me will only ever be a fun time for an hour or two (if that) during the week and then only for my avatars that can afford it. It does not keep me playing Cox and if the game were to go total pvp I would find something else to do.
Alas though I will always carry with me the memory of what the Arena could of been "if only we could of created our own maps" and what zone combat could of been "If only the ATs were balanced and there was a way to balance the number of people in them".
Potential. Either it is attained or wasted.
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And I never understood the reasons for badge hunting after I got tired of it. Badges do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for you. At least in games with loot, the loot does something for you obviously. But the only "loot" or collectible things in this game are badges atm, until I9, and they do nothing for you. The only badges that actually benefit you are gladiators, but gladiator PvP is a joke. I can never understand why people badge hunt unless they are getting the accolades. The obvious is of course obsession, but do these hardcore badgers really ever step back and look at the uselessness of these badges?
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Let me ask you this: What, exactly, does one more zone PvP kill get for you? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Just because you personally are tired of something, that doesnt make it useless. That does not mean it does absolutely nothing for someone else. If someone else enjoys getting the badges, then that enjoyment does something for them. Indeed, if you look at your life in general, this entire game, start to finish, does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for you. So why do you play it? Enjoyment? Good answer. And some of us enjoy badges. Fortunately, my enjoyment of badges does not require you to understand it.
For me, badge hunting is my end-game content. Zone PvP has the potential to interest me, but every time I try it for any length of time along comes some poo-monkey and its back to farming for the influence badges for me.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
I hear you Incursion.
I believe that inventions may kick PvP a kickstart again. There will be new builds, new addons and new strats around what type of sets people have...or it may just turn out that a certain set is required and everyone goes toward that.
I don't mind the PvP so much in this game when the fights are lengthy...I am getting my SG on another server its feet wet with PvP next month in the Arena, we'll see how that goes.
Edit: I guess what screws me over is that I really have a concept for my characters when I build and they end up semi-borked in PvP...my Sonic Defender will probably be useful but the Dark Blast may not be. 
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
I actually do want to understand what enjoyment people get from badges. Maybe I am missing out on something. For me, the act of PvP is fun. I am having fun when I hit someone with a fireblast while bunny hopping. I also find baseball fun to play. The act of swinging a bat at a thrown ball and trying to hit it solidly is fun.
This is different from how I perceive people enjoy badges. I don't really think anyone thinks the act of clicking on a RV base terminal is fun. I don't think many think the act of using an attack on 1000 monkeys in a row is fun. My perception is that people feel a sense of accomplishment when they get a badge or look at their badge list.
My bottom line for games is "how fun is it?" Achieving goals is good but only if I am having fun in the process. So to me it seems like people that are avid badge hunters enjoy the sense of accomplishment but never actually have fun.
And this seems to be confirmed in my conversations with friends who do collect badges. They heal farm for the empath badge but view the requirement for the badge as a tedious obstruction.
Am I not understanding something?
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numbers such as this: http://borkweb.com/story/007-of-the-...ld-of-warcraft
This: http://www.shadowsinmotion.com/news-...tion-revealed/
or this: http://www.mmogchart.com/
Then again, you may have meant comparitive anaylsis with sites such as this: http://www.mmorpg.com/index.cfm?fp=1024,768,993829437,20060129112952&bhcp=1
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You threw some stats up there to support your case. SO lets just work with those.
The mmorpg.com page. well when you click on the player posts on both CoH (1348 of them) and CoV (405) of them, they dont seem to wash for you. I read through 200 villain posts and found about 15 that even mentioned PvP while the majority mentioned fun, and character creations and costumes and power variety and ease of play. The same demographic trend broke out for the CoH posts. No hue and cry for PvP, not even a wimper of complaint about the existing system.
Now lets take the MMOGCHART: Good numbers. CoX experienced their startup spike, another in around the April May timeframe of 2005, and another on release of CoV. Each time it leveled back down, including the current trend to return back to the point before the release of CoV. So in essence the statistics you pointed out to support your case do not show that the CoX playerbase has an interest in PvP. Those stats do point out that some games that have PvP have large subsciber bases. It seems especially interesting that since CoX is the only superhero game in town (currently) that there would be this lack of upward trending if PvP was so important.
We shall see if this bears out when MUO comes online. Many CoX players PVE and PvP alike will roll over to see what its about. Some will stay some will come back. If they have PvP and it is "better" than in CoX and their subscribers blow through the roof, your point will have been made. If not, it will cement what the majority of the players of CoX, not the game magazines or the PvP minority say . . . CoX is PvE.
Peace and axle grease.
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That wasn't my point with the numbers. You can use the game site to verify the numbers for yourself, but of the 13 million plus people that were playing online games in July 06, less than 400,000 players were playing PVE only games. Of the PVE only games you can track, all but one, disney's toontown for kids (with 110,000 subscribers), has been dying.
I probably did a poor job of explaining that. That would be my fault.
I also don't have anything against PVE people. I do have something against people trying to eject PVP from this game.
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PVP pays the bills. PVE does not.
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didn't get the wub you need in Castles thread so reposted it all here?
While your statement may be accurate for all MMOs (giving you the benefit of the doubt) - and possibly good advice for any new MMO in development - its not remotely accurate for the current income generation of CoH/V.
And there is no massive infusion of resources coming to recode 9 releases of software that had PvP to a game not designed for it balance wise, for a MMO that has clearly peaked.
It would be great to see PvP attract enough NEW sources of revenue to bump up the sub rate, but it hasn't happened yet, and NCSoft/Cryptic aren't going to piss off the majority player base (most of whom don't even read these forums) starving content in issue 11 and 12 to overhaul PvP and *hope* it brings enough new subs. So its bandaids, promises, and then MUO.
ps before you try to label me, not a PvP hater, a number of my alts dabble in PvP.
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See my answer above. For your stuff that got buried in the other thread, SOE is the lead developer for DC, it's should still be due out in Dec 2007. SOE has a standard business model of developing games with pvp optional for people that don't like to pvp. PVP is a basic set of the game and it is always there in the end, for any of their major releases.
It was my understanding that, from the Marvel side, as the Intellectual property holder they wanted everything DC could make and better. Marvel also has a long history for developing pvp games all the way back to the arcade days. Marvel is still slated to go live in Jan 08, from my last verification.
You can verify virtually everything else from the various pages here: http://www.mmorpg.com/
Any other questions?
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And I never understood the reasons for badge hunting after I got tired of it. Badges do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for you. At least in games with loot, the loot does something for you obviously. But the only "loot" or collectible things in this game are badges atm, until I9, and they do nothing for you. The only badges that actually benefit you are gladiators, but gladiator PvP is a joke. I can never understand why people badge hunt unless they are getting the accolades. The obvious is of course obsession, but do these hardcore badgers really ever step back and look at the uselessness of these badges?
[/ QUOTE ]
I like collecting most badges, except the stupidily hard to get ones. However, you don't have much room to talk. I as a badger could say, when are you going to see the pointlessness of beating each other silly? Of course I understand everyone has their likes and dislikes. PvP is not my cup of tea, because whenever I'm in a zone I'm almost always on the side outnumbered 2 to 1. Who knows, once I get my first 50, I may stop badging and learn more about PvP. BUt anyway, at least at the moment the PvP zones on most servers are dead except if you get lucky or an event is going on, so I'll just wait and see if PvP picks up steam.
Im glad folks are finally starting to come around and see the truth of the matter.
Ive been preaching this for years amidst a sea of carebears and PvE nuts that think PvE is the way to keep a playerbase around....thats simply is not true, because content is pretty much blasted through in days...
Now, I will say this- PvP in CoX has really not come close to its potential....Why? Because the things the Devs implemented to help people have meaningful PvP have been bugged and sat on...
For example- take the items of power- a brilliant idea! Items that could potentially give your SG specific XP bonuses, DMG bonuses, Defense bonuses (both in PvE and PvP) have been put ont he back shelf while they work on other things....this to me is why you see alot of empty PvP zones...
I garauntee, if you implement Items of Power once again and give them awesome bonuses like an added 10% XP Bonus per kill or 3-5% DMG boost on attacks, you would see a lot more activity in PvP zones...Also-another part of the problem is that they gave IoP out as a reward for completing a task force...
Why do that when you have the ability to implement a capture-the-flag type of PvP Villain vs. Hero zone where you have two fortresses on opposites of the zone, and players can infiltrate those fortresses and capture items similar to items of power for your SG (or side of the war) that give your SG teammates or fellow heroes bonuses to XP, DMG, prestige, etc? - All while the villain players try to stop you from doing it...
Those type of fun PvP exercises are missing from CoX....Recluses Victory, while on the right track, is just not groundbreaking or rewarding enough to take part in...Why have timed Dimensional reversion? Why not have it where if one side of the war takes over the zone, then that side (be it hero or villain) get a static XP, influence, or prestige bonus both in PvE and PvP until the other side reverts it back?
That way theres a reason why players want to go in there and take over the zone..otherwise its just more badge hunting....
You have to give players a reason to PvP, otherwise they get bored, and even folks like myself that love killing will go find something else to do out of boredom instead of chasing stalkers around everyday.
The risk in PvP often enough has not equalled the reward...you're risking getting your [censored] handed to you just for the thrill of the fight- ther eis no meaning to it....
Devs: Give your PvP meaning, and the zones will not be empty anymore....
Ping me at @Psion or Psion2.
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I actually do want to understand what enjoyment people get from badges. Maybe I am missing out on something. For me, the act of PvP is fun. I am having fun when I hit someone with a fireblast while bunny hopping. I also find baseball fun to play. The act of swinging a bat at a thrown ball and trying to hit it solidly is fun.
This is different from how I perceive people enjoy badges. I don't really think anyone thinks the act of clicking on a RV base terminal is fun. I don't think many think the act of using an attack on 1000 monkeys in a row is fun. My perception is that people feel a sense of accomplishment when they get a badge or look at their badge list.
My bottom line for games is "how fun is it?" Achieving goals is good but only if I am having fun in the process. So to me it seems like people that are avid badge hunters enjoy the sense of accomplishment but never actually have fun.
And this seems to be confirmed in my conversations with friends who do collect badges. They heal farm for the empath badge but view the requirement for the badge as a tedious obstruction.
Am I not understanding something?
[/ QUOTE ]
I like badges because it is to me fun. Some badges I will not get because they are not fun to get. I think people who collect badges like the feeling of accomplishment, weither they farmed a badge or not, weither they spent hours upon hours for in RCS, it is fun to them.
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Im glad folks are finally starting to come around and see the truth of the matter.
Ive been preaching this for years amidst a sea of carebears
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Right there is something I hate about PvP. PvPers called PvEers carebears. I don't know why but I just hate when PvPers say that like its a bad thing that some people don't like PvP. I have yet to see a PvEer call a PvPer a "hatebear" or something to that effect. There are PvPers that don't help PvP much because of they way they act.
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and PvE nuts that think PvE is the way to keep a playerbase around....thats simply is not true, because content is pretty much blasted through in days...
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True the content is done and done over. But for me teaming is the best thing in this game. each team is different weither we have team-wipes or if we blow through mishs it is fun for me.
I normally don't bother with long posts. But thanks Laylyn, I thought this was a good read.
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Right there is something I hate about PvP. PvPers called PvEers carebears. I don't know why but I just hate when PvPers say that like its a bad thing that some people don't like PvP. I have yet to see a PvEer call a PvPer a "hatebear" or something to that effect. There are PvPers that don't help PvP much because of they way they act.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this, "Carebear" seems to say "I'm soft because I don't pvp". This is simply not the case, I know several people who love Cox but they quickly came to hate pvp. Why? because pve there is a community that supports each other, even perfect strangers will seek each other out to reach toward a common goal. That sense of community for many disintegrated the moment they stepped in a zone and suddenly the guy you were helping accomplish goals before is laughing at you and calling you names and or defeating you repeatedly simply because he can and you know he is getting his rocks off.
So people left and slammed the door as they did so with no intention of returning. I have a friend who plays wow and he pvps quite a bit and appears to be very good at it, When he tells me the Horde and Alliance cannot talk and that there are queues to enter zones all I can think is that "I wish we had such things".
Now Laylyn has done a fine job of getting the Guardian community togther and keeping people interested and deserves a lot of credit for the effort but I am not so sure it is the health or lack there of pvp that keeps the game afloat. I would say it is how the two are synergized into their worlds that is the true sign of the health of the game. The problem is that the Dev. team has been working out with their pve arm only and their withered pvp arm has been purposely ignored. Maybe the recent communications indicate that this will change. I for one hope so.
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I'll play Devil's Advocate here a bit. Technically, you could say everything about this game is useless. In 5 years when this game is gone and dead, will anyone remember the badges you got? Will anyone remember that really cool roleplaying thingy? Will anyone remember how your final battle in PvP went? Different strokes for different folks. Some people are attracted to combat, some are attracted to catgirl rping, and some are attracted to shiny objects.
[/ QUOTE ]
You, sir, are my new hero!
while(!sleep()){sheep++}
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Right there is something I hate about PvP. PvPers called PvEers carebears. I don't know why but I just hate when PvPers say that like its a bad thing that some people don't like PvP. I have yet to see a PvEer call a PvPer a "hatebear" or something to that effect. There are PvPers that don't help PvP much because of they way they act.
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I agree with this, "Carebear" seems to say "I'm soft because I don't pvp". This is simply not the case, I know several people who love Cox but they quickly came to hate pvp. Why? because pve there is a community that supports each other, even perfect strangers will seek each other out to reach toward a common goal. That sense of community for many disintegrated the moment they stepped in a zone and suddenly the guy you were helping accomplish goals before is laughing at you and calling you names and or defeating you repeatedly simply because he can and you know he is getting his rocks off.
So people left and slammed the door as they did so with no intention of returning. I have a friend who plays wow and he pvps quite a bit and appears to be very good at it, When he tells me the Horde and Alliance cannot talk and that there are queues to enter zones all I can think is that "I wish we had such things".
Now Laylyn has done a fine job of getting the Guardian community togther and keeping people interested and deserves a lot of credit for the effort but I am not so sure it is the health or lack there of pvp that keeps the game afloat. I would say it is how the two are synergized into their worlds that is the true sign of the health of the game. The problem is that the Dev. team has been working out with their pve arm only and their withered pvp arm has been purposely ignored. Maybe the recent communications indicate that this will change. I for one hope so.
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I've never been a big fan of the word carebear myself. I will use it aginst a pvper that enjoys degrading others, but generally I think anything that retracts from your future player base is a bad idea. I've seen pvp games reach such a level of negative domination that the other side gives up for a time and I don't see that as a positive. I see that as a lose, lose.
The whole thing works best as a win, win. It's a fun white knuckle experience on it's best days and I've seen plenty of people who swore they'd never pvp change their mind and then become rabid pvpers. You have to engage people's imaginations. You also have to bring out the best sportmaship on both sides, but also realize that being human, everyone has bad days.
As for the Guardian war thing, you are giving me way too much credit. There are too many people on both sides that keep the event going and make sure it's fun for everyone. That's not a person, that's a community. That's also something you've been a part of Helmkat, even on the opposing side. I firmly believe it will endure and that playstyle will endure long after I'm gone.
Good things grow and prosper. That's just the nature of things.
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Right there is something I hate about PvP. PvPers called PvEers carebears. I don't know why but I just hate when PvPers say that like its a bad thing that some people don't like PvP. I have yet to see a PvEer call a PvPer a "hatebear" or something to that effect. There are PvPers that don't help PvP much because of they way they act.
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I agree with this, "Carebear" seems to say "I'm soft because I don't pvp". This is simply not the case, I know several people who love Cox but they quickly came to hate pvp. Why? because pve there is a community that supports each other, even perfect strangers will seek each other out to reach toward a common goal. That sense of community for many disintegrated the moment they stepped in a zone and suddenly the guy you were helping accomplish goals before is laughing at you and calling you names and or defeating you repeatedly simply because he can and you know he is getting his rocks off.
So people left and slammed the door as they did so with no intention of returning. I have a friend who plays wow and he pvps quite a bit and appears to be very good at it, When he tells me the Horde and Alliance cannot talk and that there are queues to enter zones all I can think is that "I wish we had such things".
Now Laylyn has done a fine job of getting the Guardian community togther and keeping people interested and deserves a lot of credit for the effort but I am not so sure it is the health or lack there of pvp that keeps the game afloat. I would say it is how the two are synergized into their worlds that is the true sign of the health of the game. The problem is that the Dev. team has been working out with their pve arm only and their withered pvp arm has been purposely ignored. Maybe the recent communications indicate that this will change. I for one hope so.
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I've never been a big fan of the word carebear myself. I will use it aginst a pvper that enjoys degrading others, but generally I think anything that retracts from your future player base is a bad idea. I've seen pvp games reach such a level of negative domination that the other side gives up for a time and I don't see that as a positive. I see that as a lose, lose.
The whole thing works best as a win, win. It's a fun white knuckle experience on it's best days and I've seen plenty of people who swore they'd never pvp change their mind and then become rabid pvpers. You have to engage people's imaginations. You also have to bring out the best sportmaship on both sides, but also realize that being human, everyone has bad days.
As for the Guardian war thing, you are giving me way too much credit. There are too many people on both sides that keep the event going and make sure it's fun for everyone. That's not a person, that's a community. That's also something you've been a part of Helmkat, even on the opposing side. I firmly believe it will endure and that playstyle will endure long after I'm gone.
Good things grow and prosper. That's just the nature of things.
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Do professional wrestlers call eachothers mama's names?
Layln, gg.
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Guess what WOW had PVP from ground up day one DAOC which still has about the same subs as COX was built ground up with PVP
UO which is still going after like 10 years has PVP ground up.
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Good point. Never again will I invest in a MMORPG that doesn't have an implented plan for PvP from the get-go.
Otherwise I would have left CoH for Vanguard 2 months ago. A lot of Q3 MMORPG's are looking promising though.
Also otherwise looks like the two sides of the fence in this thread are going to have to agree to disagree. Too bad it's looking like the devs are going to have to pick one. 
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Im glad folks are finally starting to come around and see the truth of the matter.
Ive been preaching this for years amidst a sea of carebears
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Right there is something I hate about PvP. PvPers called PvEers carebears. I don't know why but I just hate when PvPers say that like its a bad thing that some people don't like PvP.
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The term "carebear" is nothing more than a crude ad hominem. And anyone who studies rhetoric will tell you that name-calling is primairly used by those who either do not have a valid arguement, or are simply unable to articulate it. Generally, the former is far more common.
In other words, only losers feel the need to name-call.
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Guess what WOW had PVP from ground up day one DAOC which still has about the same subs as COX was built ground up with PVP
UO which is still going after like 10 years has PVP ground up.
None of them had it shoehorned in after the fact. COX PVP is going to do nothing for subs because it was shoehorn into a system that was not built for pvp.
Sorry since the empty arenas in I4 to what ever patch you want to talk about has had basically empty pvp zones
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