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No, its up to us to police our own community. The problem is people who either a) see nothing wrong with the jerks, or b) see it all as an attitude problem on the part of the PvE'ers rather than as a problem on both sides.
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Amazing, it seems the same arguments are still going on in here.
First, if we are going "police our own community", we have to agree to a certain code of conduct that is over and above what the EULA and other official rules lay out.
Second, we would have to create a mechanism to communicate the agreed on rules and probably create a method for updating or changing them later.
Third, we would have to develop some means of actually taking action against an "offender" who breaks the unofficial community rules.
Now, I don't believe that any of these steps are actually feasible since trying to get a consensus for point 1 would be an exercise in futility, no such method exists nor can be created for point 2, and no method of handling point 3 is feasible. I do believe there are cases where players should report griefing behavior, and I know it does occur, but I believe that the official rules and mechanism for dealing with offenders are quite sufficient.
Now, if you have a real solution to dealing with "poo monkeys" I'm all ears.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Ok just something interesting to note. I don't think PVP is as important as you say, because as several people here mentioned... The pvp areas are almost always empty... Now heres the interesting part... I tried pvp, but I personally find it annoying in the idea that in coX you find out that there are only so many powersets and setups that are really at all good for pvp. I have experimented with all sorts of at's and powersets, and well, lets just say only some of those excel at pvp, and the rest are mostly pve. And some of the pvp excelling powersets also excel at pve... so the game is way more balanced for pve, as it has been since the arena opened. If it gets a little more balanced, I might just join in on all this pvp fun, but until then... I"m pve all the way.
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Don't confuse a low popualation in a PVP zone for anything other than those folks are grinding up there next PVP toon. We have to lvl too. Further many PVP minded folks play on several servers and go from server to server PVP zone to PVP zone to find the fight that intrests them most.
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Yep, been spending most of the last week and a half working on a pvp toon. I actually enjoy pve too - so keep in mind that pve takes WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY longer than pvp. I can pop in to pvp, kill everyone in the zone, and feel done. I don't feel done in pve till the character is all set up with the best enhancements, accolades, and is lvl 50. Also, I don't like to pvp too much until that lvl 50 is made.
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Point is you can get away from all of that PVE greifing.
You can't get away from the idiot in a pvp zone if you wish to to pvp in the zone. The griefing in PVE is nothing compared to pvp as far as I'm concerned.
You can't really drive someone out of a pve zone as then you'd be driving them out of the game. Driving someone out of a pvp zone is only driving them out of pvp, which is what we all don't want.
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Actually, you are wrong. You can't avoid griefing in the PVE world any differenty than in the PVP world. In all the cases I listed, I had to leave the zone and go somewhere else as I had NO WAY to fight back at the griefers doing it. I was a blaster, the guy was a fire tanker and he had aggro'd dozens of critters on top of me...I had no choice but to go play elsewhere. NO WAY I could retaliate against him. In PVP, I've the option to fight back or flee. My option in PVE is to flee.
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Again like you just said you CAN get away from the idiot in PVE and go PVE somewhere else. When you flee a pvp zone, you are fleeing an activity you like.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
This topic turned out better than i thought it would.
To appeal to the largest possible audience, a game should appeal to both PvP and PvE segments of the marketplace.
A PvP only game has difficulty generating sufficient populace willing to pay a monthly fee -- why pay a subscription when I can play Battlefield 2 for a single upfront payment? Especially when there is an extensive mod community which can churn out new maps/content?
A PvE only game runs the risk of growing stale. Players will always be able to burn through content at a rate many times faster than a development team can create, and this creates situations of player burnout and constant cries for 'new content!' A great example: A WoW developer said at one point that it would take players as long to go from level 60 to level 70 as it took to get from level 1 to 60. And yet, within 48 hours of the expansion going live, there was already a level 70 player. While it is certain that he did not experience all of the content of that expansion pack in that time, it should be apparent that the rate of consumption is far greater than can be met by a development team working with realistic resources and budgets.
By taking both elements (and both are extremely wide categories) upcoming MMO's are hoping to appeal to a broader range of customer, which is the only real way to recoup the incredible development costs involved in projects of this size. The challenge is, therefore, how to incorporate PvP elements so that they do not repel predominately PvE players?
Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players. They are not strictly competitive; they can be viewed as cooperative, they help you progress your character in direct ways (new armor, weapons, enhancements, Implants, etc) as well as indirect ways (name recognition, money.) As an aside, this is tangentially related to my abhorrence for the third party 'gold/item/PLing' market -- using out of game resources to bolster your in game efforts is cheating, regardless of the excuse used. I own a second chess set, mind if I set up an extra bishop or two for our game?
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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Again like you just said you CAN get away from the idiot in PVE and go PVE somewhere else. When you flee a pvp zone, you are fleeing an activity you like.
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I don't think you get it. Yes, I CAN get away from the idiot in PVE by being forced to do something OTHER THAN I WANT and leave the zone where they were griefing me.
In PVP, I have that SAME choice....but I can also fight back because "griefing" is really just "Player versus Player" in those zones.
How can I fight back in PVE?
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Again like you just said you CAN get away from the idiot in PVE and go PVE somewhere else. When you flee a pvp zone, you are fleeing an activity you like.
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I don't think you get it. Yes, I CAN get away from the idiot in PVE by being forced to do something OTHER THAN I WANT and leave the zone where they were griefing me.
In PVP, I have that SAME choice....but I can also fight back because "griefing" is really just "Player versus Player" in those zones.
How can I fight back in PVE?
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Lets try this again, we want more folks in the zones! The grief pushes them out of the zones. This is a bad thing. For an exprienced pvper fighting back is easy. For a first timer the thing they see is the bad behavior and then they turn tail and leave. This is not a good thing.
In a pve zone I can just avoid the idiot or not team with him.
Hence whey I like the arenas a lot. You can exclude the idiots right from the get go.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Now, if you have a real solution to dealing with "poo monkeys" I'm all ears.
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Shutting them down within the limits of the game seems to work. There is nothing a bully fears more than a united front willing to fight back.
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Again like you just said you CAN get away from the idiot in PVE and go PVE somewhere else. When you flee a pvp zone, you are fleeing an activity you like.
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I don't think you get it. Yes, I CAN get away from the idiot in PVE by being forced to do something OTHER THAN I WANT and leave the zone where they were griefing me.
In PVP, I have that SAME choice....but I can also fight back because "griefing" is really just "Player versus Player" in those zones.
How can I fight back in PVE?
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I can also think of times when PvE behavior of this type happens. But I think there is a very serious difference in how it FEELS when you compare reactions in PvE and PvP.
Let's say some 'poo monkey' (sure, why not, I'll use the term) herds up a level 50 ambush to a store or a train in Steel Canyon or whatever. It usually only takes a few minutes for someone to notice, and broadcasts of "argh, some fool left his level 50 ambush at the train!" And just as often as not, other level 50s will respond to the situation and come clean it up. But even if no one comes to clean it up, I have never heard someone respond to a broadcast about a lingering ambush with "cry more n00b" or "lrn 2 play".
If someone is actively being a poo monkey PvE, you will tend to find the community-at-large hostile to the fact he's being a jerk. Part of that is that the PvE environment has actual rules. If a person herds level 50 mobs into players in a level 5 zone, that IS griefing-- you don't have to have a huge discussion about whether it was or not. In PvP, there is a significant population of players who believe NOTHING is griefing. Which of course means that a player who broadcasts with a complaint in a PvP zone will receive a reaction peppered with insults and very little support.
There may be nothing you can DO about griefing or poo monkeys in PvE or PvP, but I guess my point is, often in the PvE environment, the community often responds with "yeah, that guy is a tool, sorry that happened" where in PvP environments the sentiment can often be "sorry, but that's PvP, if you don't like it, get better or leave."
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
[/ QUOTE ] plz explain
Well, to put it more simply: it takes longer to write a book than to read it.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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There may be nothing you can DO about griefing or poo monkeys in PvE or PvP, but I guess my point is, often in the PvE environment, the community often responds with "yeah, that guy is a tool, sorry that happened" where in PvP environments the sentiment can often be "sorry, but that's PvP, if you don't like it, get better or leave."
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There isn't in PvE, really. We have certain people routinely and repeatedly grief raids for instance, because they know for a fact that there is naught but a ghost town of a GM team in this game, and despite being petitioned for dozens and dozens of raids, those same people persist on the server, free to again do that.
If the powers that be refuse to smack down someone who is literally griefing hundreds of players at a time, they're not going to do ANYTHING about idiots pulling monsters or huge groups of 50s onto wee folks any longer, much less doing just about anything in a PvP zone.
Got to love 'downsizing'...
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
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I don't think PVPers are so much interested in new content as they are in infrastructure, andreaddressing deficiencies in the existing sytem.
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
[/ QUOTE ] plz explain
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That's a very easy one
Player vs Player, in other words, is Player's COMPETING with each other.
In an Auction House system, you have player's competing to supply items at a reasonable price, and you have player's competing to get the rarest items no matter the cost. 
Hell, even the PvE content can be PvP! Sure, I might not be shooting my friend's blaster, but, he's gonna be going "Did you see that Nova?" and I say "Yah, but did you see what my Oil Slick Arrow and Rain of Arrows does every single spawn?" and he shuts up.
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players.
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o_o I think something in my head just broke upon reading that line.
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
[ QUOTE ]
To appeal to the largest possible audience, a game should appeal to both PvP and PvE segments of the marketplace.
A PvP only game has difficulty generating sufficient populace willing to pay a monthly fee -- why pay a subscription when I can play Battlefield 2 for a single upfront payment? Especially when there is an extensive mod community which can churn out new maps/content?
A PvE only game runs the risk of growing stale. Players will always be able to burn through content at a rate many times faster than a development team can create, and this creates situations of player burnout and constant cries for 'new content!' A great example: A WoW developer said at one point that it would take players as long to go from level 60 to level 70 as it took to get from level 1 to 60. And yet, within 48 hours of the expansion going live, there was already a level 70 player. While it is certain that he did not experience all of the content of that expansion pack in that time, it should be apparent that the rate of consumption is far greater than can be met by a development team working with realistic resources and budgets.
By taking both elements (and both are extremely wide categories) upcoming MMO's are hoping to appeal to a broader range of customer, which is the only real way to recoup the incredible development costs involved in projects of this size. The challenge is, therefore, how to incorporate PvP elements so that they do not repel predominately PvE players?
Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players. They are not strictly competitive; they can be viewed as cooperative, they help you progress your character in direct ways (new armor, weapons, enhancements, Implants, etc) as well as indirect ways (name recognition, money.) As an aside, this is tangentially related to my abhorrence for the third party 'gold/item/PLing' market -- using out of game resources to bolster your in game efforts is cheating, regardless of the excuse used. I own a second chess set, mind if I set up an extra bishop or two for our game?
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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I'll agree with all your points and add to it. I think there is a third element often missing from games which is the RP groups.
As much as some people might hate them, I think I'll always be rather fond of them. My first MMORPG was Star Wars Galaxies and I played on their beta server Bria. It's early days were living NPCs cities and bars (cantinas) as crowded as what you saw in the movies, the hospitals had doctors and the cities were the center of all activity in the game.
There was a genius to the early player development of player content there, from the players and the devs. The addition of complex RP and PVE style classes like Master Dancers, Image designers, Crafters, and Musicians had a life of their own. The game had an economy and everyone had a purpose. Further, as a side bonus, it kept the average spouse out of the weeds because if one was a pvp-aholic the other could do something completely separate in the living cities, just Creating, Healing, PVEing or RPing.
I actually think games are at their best when all three can peacefully co-exist, with most of each group respecting one another. No, more than that, when they actually help and augment one another.
There were some design decisions in that first game. The results led to the death of the cities. The cantinas are just graphics, the hospitals are empty and the npc cities are used for bizarre trade & starports. They don't really live anymore.
The pvp is up and is fun, but much of the life is gone. There are large holes where giants of all three communities once walked and nothing will ever fill those holes again.
Not being SOE, the next time you all make something from the ground up, as what I see as a wiser company, please help those crazy RPers sandbox some more stuff up. The goofy stuff they do from acting, making music, dancing to anything is what makes the game live and breathe.
Help those PVErs, whom, like you said are probably going to get a big kick out of trade and inventions. It has a good chance of making them something much more in this game by making them the driving force behind a lot of what will be the trade of the game.
And help my fellow pvpers, we'd love a balanced game, where every toon is fun to play regardless of the initial build decisions on the players part. Every class should have it's foil, but no one should feel useless against everything else.
Before any of that sounds negative, I really love the game Cryptic has designed. There are elements here that blow every other game away, just the joy of the travel powers alone are worth most of the issues.
But, if I get a chance to respond to a dev on my own thread, why not ask for the moon... =)
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Devs: Give your PvP meaning, and the zones will not be empty anymore....
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This is what I am waiting for. I got a 50, but I would much rather level up other alts. Leveling up to me has meaning. PVP can be as fun as PVE but has no meaning so I dont do it.
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
RO Network
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
[/ QUOTE ] plz explain
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either.
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players.
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o_o I think something in my soul just broke upon reading that line.
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fixed
i cant wait to pvp at the auction house?
WHAT?! The price of this IO is WAY too high! Thats it its go time bish! *flips over table*
[pvp battle begins]
I vote for kiosks at Wentworth's now.
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players.
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o_o I think something in my brain just broke upon reading that line.
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fixed
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no, my souls fine, its the logic processing center that that statement cause a 'tilt' in.
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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When he tells me the Horde and Alliance cannot talk and that there are queues to enter zones all I can think is that "I wish we had such things".
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We do have such things, we also have the option to change such things. Well, we don't have ques but I wouldn't want to wait for my PvP. Perhaps if we did what WoW did and had cross server PvP we may have multiple zones of a couple of PvP zones.