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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either. 
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved. 
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either.
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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In other words, "I'm in U'r Wallet, stealin' U'r Monies!"
CH/BM is technicly PvP. I'm trying to get cheap rates on high priced items, and you're trying to get high sales from cheap items.
It's PvP in that I want to cheat you (basicly) and you want to cheat me (more or less).
He with the most inf wins!
kinda....
EDIT: First post after Redname! (always wanted to say that).
Continue please....
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either.
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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Word. Business is war. I'm waiting to see the first influence and infamy Bill Gates style people in the game.
Well, I just read every post in this thread, and feel compelled to respond. Good OP.
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PVP isn't optional for COX's long term survival.
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All of my pals that were 100% pve have LONG since moved on from this game, as the pve content go boring, naturally. You can only experience the 1 to 50 game so many times before you realize that it's nothing more than a photo copy of what you did the last time...
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With one or two exceptions, the only players that I've known since before PvP was introduced who are still around today are those who are interested in PvP. Everyone else has moved on.
Why go through the same PvE content over and over when you can play a new game and get completely new content? I really don't know.
Well, I do it in order to play new characters in PvP. If I could auto-level to 50, I'd never run another mission again. Seriously, do I have to do this CoT cave map AGAIN!!!
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his playerbase will never be driven by pvp. The game would fundamentally have to be re-written from the ground up with balance in mind for that to happen.
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i think the imbalances are just as much of a problem in PvE.
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Imbalances exist a plenty in the PvE game, but they are often easier for players to spot in PvP than they are in PvE. Obviously, people don't care quite as much if the overpowered spines/regen is helping your dark/dark defender level up faster than he would normally as they do when that same spines/regen pummels your dark/dark in PvP combat. On the PvE side, the imbalance makes you happy because it has a positive effect on your character's performance. On the PvP side, the imbalance makes you mad because it has a negative impact on your character's performance. As such, people are more vocal with their complaints about the imbalances in PvP.
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To appeal to the largest possible audience, a game should appeal to both PvP and PvE segments of the marketplace.
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I actually think that CoX does this quite well.
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The griefing in PVE is nothing compared to pvp as far as I'm concerned.
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I don't even know what griefing in a PvP zone is!??!?! Maybe someone can explain. Turning off enemy chat eliminates 90% of what I think many people refer to as "griefing" (i.e. insults, crying, whining).
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again I say MAJORITY are good people and play fair.
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Please explain what behaviors are "unfair" in the PvP zone. Inspirations? Teaming? ???
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only losers feel the need to name-call.
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Most of the time, the people with the harshest insults in PvP zones have just been killed. They need to say something to make them feel better after being beaten. Just don't let their talk bother you.
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For me, badge hunting is my end-game content.
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And what happens when you get all the badges???
The lack of RP friendly aids is one of the things that really keeps me from playing Guild Wars more often (and no, I don't play GW for the PVP). In reference to Laylyn said, the in-game communities (in my opinion) are what keep a game going. There's only one MMO I know of that shut down recently (Ryzom) - as long as you're pulling in a profit (even a small one), a game can continue almost indefinitely (notice how many games SOE has going?).
<a href="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=general&Number=76 02449&Searchpage=1&Main=7589075&Words= comfort+Statesman&topic=&Search=true#Post7 602449" target="_blank">[ QUOTE ]
No matter what the NCsoft numbers say in rise or decline, the bottom line is always: is a product profitable? I can't speak for any other NCsoft game, but CoH is quite comfortably in the black.
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I won't comment on PVP's necessity (or lack thereof) for its long-term survival, although I do recognize that it an important part of action based MMO's (is there fighting in Second Life? lol). What I do see as a step in the right direct is they're building on their strengths and expanding out logically with something that will potentially appeal to PVE, PVP and RP players (ie, invention system and a new economy) and address a criticism of the game (ie, shallow pool of player activities), yet (in theory) keeping it optional to players who aren't interested. I'm really hoping we'll see more of this as time goes on; perhaps building on the customization/creation ideas and rescuing the concept of player created content from Ryzom (with appropriate safeguards against abuse and horrifically inappropriate content).
It would be *really* interesting if every player in COH/COV had to take the Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology (google or wikipedia) and post the results. It would probably help everyone understand where the others are coming from (not to mention be a very, very useful tool for the developers).
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A PvE only game runs the risk of growing stale. Players will always be able to burn through content at a rate many times faster than a development team can create, and this creates situations of player burnout and constant cries for 'new content!' A great example: A WoW developer said at one point that it would take players as long to go from level 60 to level 70 as it took to get from level 1 to 60. And yet, within 48 hours of the expansion going live, there was already a level 70 player. While it is certain that he did not experience all of the content of that expansion pack in that time, it should be apparent that the rate of consumption is far greater than can be met by a development team working with realistic resources and budgets.
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Amen.
That industry-critical observation alone is worth a promotion and a speaking engagement.
$10 says the player enjoys Achievement more than Exploring.
Personally I can't help but feel this is nothing to do with combat PVP, this is about player created content, no MMO can hope to afford to generate that type of classic MMO "content" ahead of the rate the playerbase can consume it at. So to be cost effective you need to use some of the focus of the playerbase to create content.
This is what guilds are, its what economies are, its what PVP is. All of these things have been done passably well in some games and terribly in most games. PVP combat is cheap player created content for those people who thrive on interpersonal conflict. It's not the be all and end all of MMO's its simply the cheap/easy option.
I can't wait for someone to break that mold
EDIT:
Interesting point Psyte, for reference:
Achiever 60.00%, Explorer 80.00%, Killer 6.67%, Socializer 53.33% AKA: plays Uru
I did that Bartle Psychology Test thing, and I'm a SKEA.
Auction houses I don't think = Player VERSUS Player.
In PvP someone loses. Always. No matter what, you lose prestige/inf/rankings or a pillbox or a launch code or something.
In the auction house everyone wins. The buyer gets an item they want or can resell for a profit and the seller gets the money they wanted.
Auctions don't = PvP. Sorry.
Post deleted by Ex Libris
Are you allowed to advertise for other games on the forums?
Well, either way, it'll be an interesting experiment. I look forward to seeing what results it gets.
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To appeal to the largest possible audience, a game should appeal to both PvP and PvE segments of the marketplace.
A PvP only game has difficulty generating sufficient populace willing to pay a monthly fee -- why pay a subscription when I can play Battlefield 2 for a single upfront payment? Especially when there is an extensive mod community which can churn out new maps/content?
A PvE only game runs the risk of growing stale. Players will always be able to burn through content at a rate many times faster than a development team can create, and this creates situations of player burnout and constant cries for 'new content!' A great example: A WoW developer said at one point that it would take players as long to go from level 60 to level 70 as it took to get from level 1 to 60. And yet, within 48 hours of the expansion going live, there was already a level 70 player. While it is certain that he did not experience all of the content of that expansion pack in that time, it should be apparent that the rate of consumption is far greater than can be met by a development team working with realistic resources and budgets.
By taking both elements (and both are extremely wide categories) upcoming MMO's are hoping to appeal to a broader range of customer, which is the only real way to recoup the incredible development costs involved in projects of this size. The challenge is, therefore, how to incorporate PvP elements so that they do not repel predominately PvE players?
Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players. They are not strictly competitive; they can be viewed as cooperative, they help you progress your character in direct ways (new armor, weapons, enhancements, Implants, etc) as well as indirect ways (name recognition, money.) As an aside, this is tangentially related to my abhorrence for the third party 'gold/item/PLing' market -- using out of game resources to bolster your in game efforts is cheating, regardless of the excuse used. I own a second chess set, mind if I set up an extra bishop or two for our game?
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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I'll agree with all your points and add to it. I think there is a third element often missing from games which is the RP groups.
As much as some people might hate them, I think I'll always be rather fond of them. My first MMORPG was Star Wars Galaxies and I played on their beta server Bria. It's early days were living NPCs cities and bars (cantinas) as crowded as what you saw in the movies, the hospitals had doctors and the cities were the center of all activity in the game.
There was a genius to the early player development of player content there, from the players and the devs. The addition of complex RP and PVE style classes like Master Dancers, Image designers, Crafters, and Musicians had a life of their own. The game had an economy and everyone had a purpose. Further, as a side bonus, it kept the average spouse out of the weeds because if one was a pvp-aholic the other could do something completely separate in the living cities, just Creating, Healing, PVEing or RPing.
I actually think games are at their best when all three can peacefully co-exist, with most of each group respecting one another. No, more than that, when they actually help and augment one another.
There were some design decisions in that first game. The results led to the death of the cities. The cantinas are just graphics, the hospitals are empty and the npc cities are used for bizarre trade & starports. They don't really live anymore.
The pvp is up and is fun, but much of the life is gone. There are large holes where giants of all three communities once walked and nothing will ever fill those holes again.
Not being SOE, the next time you all make something from the ground up, as what I see as a wiser company, please help those crazy RPers sandbox some more stuff up. The goofy stuff they do from acting, making music, dancing to anything is what makes the game live and breathe.
Help those PVErs, whom, like you said are probably going to get a big kick out of trade and inventions. It has a good chance of making them something much more in this game by making them the driving force behind a lot of what will be the trade of the game.
And help my fellow pvpers, we'd love a balanced game, where every toon is fun to play regardless of the initial build decisions on the players part. Every class should have it's foil, but no one should feel useless against everything else.
Before any of that sounds negative, I really love the game Cryptic has designed. There are elements here that blow every other game away, just the joy of the travel powers alone are worth most of the issues.
But, if I get a chance to respond to a dev on my own thread, why not ask for the moon... =)
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God I hope people read this.
@PlasmaStream
"Big Bada Boom(tm)!"
1295 Badges
http://GuardianForce.Guildportal.com - Virtue
Niska: Are you Familiar with the works of Shan Yu?
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Owned.
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Are you allowed to advertise for other games on the forums?
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I guess not.
KA-BAM!
I got to see some alpha/beta play of Fury. It sounds all like "clickclickclickclickclick" of button mash.
I prefer the deliberate, calculated attacks here, thanks.
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either.
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
[/ QUOTE ]You're an Idiot.
Well, players in competition over something really isn't the same thing as PvP. Or at least not in my mind.
I mean, if it was, no one would say "stop killstealing", they'd say "gg".
I would like to speak to this.
A lot of you have made some good points both ways. As well, the internet is a great place to find broad sweeping statements that are hard to back up, and there are some of those in this thread as well.
First, I'm neither in the pro nor anti-PvP camp. Second, I think a point Castle made about the original design of any given game is important to this discussion.
Other games came out advertising PvP content. They were built for it. Many of those are the ones mentioned by the OP in the 'stats' he uses as examples. CoH is very different. It came out advertising that players would never have to PvP. It didn't even come out with real PvP for over a year (I'm not counting arenas). So what I'm saying is that all, not most, players who originally bought the game were doing so with the expectation that PvP was not part of it. As a result, there are players to this day who would run away in droves if PvP were suddenly implemented in anything even resembling the traditional way. That's not to say there aren't some great ideas and possibilities out there. I realize there were new players who came in for CoV and since, and that compared to other games PvP in CoX is underdeveloped. However, PvP was not part of the original design, intent, or expectation.
People post arguments based on 'everyone they talk to' or 'most people they speak to in game'. It's easy to do, but it is not valid because we normally congregate with those of like mind. In other words, if you are predominantly a PvPer, the people you really get into conversations with are for the most part also going to be PvPer's. You hang out in those zones, so that's who you're going to meet. Also, posting stats that deal with other games that were, for the most part, designed with PvP in mind is useful and interesting, but cannot speak for this community because of the original intent, design, and expectations.
Now on to more personal comments.
I've read a few posts here, but not nearly all of them. I think there are some interesting ideas, but as it stands I do not play this game for the PvP. On top of that, implementing PvP as a copy of some of the more 'populare' games out there wouldn't work for me either. If it did I'd be playing those.
First, there are some serious community problems with PvP. I agree with the majority of what Castle says here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1
Also, I tried PvP for a player run event the other day and after the first hour I found it tedious. I gank you, you gank me, back and forth throughout the zone until you come up with some way of exploiting me and I end up with debt. I didn't really get frustrated. I even complimented the Stalker who ended up killing me, but I found it tedious. There was even some trash talk, which I personally don't like, especially in an organized event.
Now, admittedly, I don't know a lot about PvP. My toon wasn't built for it, but I would be interested if I found it even half as fun as what people claim. I'm not only talking about CoX here either. On top of that, I end up bored and not advancing my toon. As it stands it just plain doesn't appeal to me. I know enough other people who feel the same way that we could put a noticeable dent in subscriptions if we all up an left. Barely noticeable, but a dent none the less. 
So, to address both sides, PvP does need a boost in CoH. I would like there to be some reason to play other than bragging rights. It does need to be more fun. Part of that may very well be the issues brought up here and elsewhere that the devs have to look at. Part of it may also be the community (for the reasons stated in Castles post, etc.). On top of that, there are advertised features that are still not usable in game (base raids and SG missions, PvP stability, etc.). The players take these as unfullfilled promises from the Devs, so, even though I don't plan on using them extensively, they do deserve attention.
However, I personally doubt that PvP pays the bills for CoH, especially in its current state. I continue to pay for and play CoH with no expectations that PvP will ever move beyond what it is. If it does, and if it is more inticing, I will play, but that's not why I play CoH. I play for the over all system and for the great times I have teaming. It is a blast to team with 3 or 4 other mature players and together take down an enemy that would otherwise be overwhelming, whether PvP or PvE.
I think Castle hates pvp.
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As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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You have 800 quatlus??! Clearly your bet on the newcomer paid off!
P. S. It's normally spelled Quatloo.
P. P. S. Adding apostrophes to the ends of words to pluralize them makes sentient plants cry. Check out here for a handy guide!
P. P. P. S. Kudos on bringing up the whole "any economy = pvp" point!
I cant wait to start practicing my INF managements skills with my vg.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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Quatlus?
/e takes out his original Star Trek hand phaser and fires a warning shot across _Castle_'s bow.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I vote for kiosks at Wentworth's now.
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How about we wrestle for that recipe...