EmpYou

And Im going to quote something I found on your boards that fits this thread perfectly


http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playi...in-part-1.html


Edit - The more I read this article, I see CoH pre i13 and post i13 in complete clarity
Some quotes from the article to think about if you refuse to read it
and finally

qfe

In the old days, people would get nuked hardcore if they tried that little tactic.

Id rather see someone with extensive PvP experience from All MMO's to have that job. Arcana is good with numbers and makes sense sometimes, but Castle is as well and he knows the layout of the game a little better (as he should)

I think they need a Project manager PvP Dev. Doesn't have to be someone who can program, but someone who can visualize a balanced PvP and describe it to the programmers to make it happen.

very good point, I missed that part. Yes, there are some who will exist outside the curve (Upper right corner area). Trying to cater to people who are well outside the balance of the curve is probably the quickest way to have this game sunset.

tell me again why you have to listen to badgers?

I don't think it would be that much work, PvP 1.0 still exists outside in normal zones. When the devs made a glitch that put an unfinished zone live, we had PvP 1.0 in there.

I think the problem is that no one has been able to answer that 64000 dollar question. From top down view, here is my take (And I can post pictures now too..I like these new forums):

Captain obvious statement: All MMO players are drawn into the game by what appeals to them. Their appeal of said game and what it can offer may change over time, but it mostly follows the bell curve below:




Most people fall within the middle of the curve, either preferring PvP a little more than PvE or the opposite. The two extreme ends, Those that only PvP (See Test server Ladder players in i12 for details) vs the People who live and breathe their character in game to a point of borderline insanity (See Virtue Pocket D for details)

PvP 1.0 favors the left, no doubt (See point 1 in diagram above). I think the devs tried to make PvP right smack dab in the middle (See point 2). Its an admirable and Ambitious goal, but very hard to achieve and can cause your changes to be not liked by either side.

Where the devs failed (In my opinion) was they tried to take a point on the right (See point 3) and say "If we can make PvP appeal to this group of people, it should move the balance up to the middle and we can then add in rewards/innovations because more people will enjoy it" Again, An admirable goal, but the logic is flawed.

In this scenario, if PvP was moved to the middle, it's really only going to appeal to the casual. The people who didn't like it before might try it out, but the reasons they didn't like it might still remain. The root cause of people not liking PvP was because its not PvE.

PvE is linear. you click your enemies, assess their weakness and attack. Debuff AVs, AoE hold big groups, its all linear. The only difficulty is what you make for yourself - as in "How many mobs you take at once" or "The level of the mobs" or "What teammates should I bring". The player is in complete control.

PvP is dynamic. You still click you enemies and assess their weaknesses and attack, but the enemies are doing the same to you. Your enemies are intelligent and will learn. Their is only one difficulty and it's already set to hard. The player is only in control of themselves.

Some people don't like that. If you are on the PvE side of the curve down towards the hardcore area, you picked your character because you had an idea you wanted to explore. In the world where you are in control, he may be an unstoppable juggernaut. But when you have an enemy that is analyzing your weaknesses, you may find your character inferior.

This is why fight club has become so popular among the new PvP crowd. People want to see themselves fight someone else just like the fight PvE mobs. They make rules, stand and fight, one wins. You're still in control because you can pick when you fight, you have a say in what rules are laid out and you have the ability to pick who you fight.

What the devs did was make it so the players have some control of the pace of PvP. They can control when their opponent is forced to fight (Suppression), they can control how long they can sustain a fight (Heal decay) and they can control how much negative effects are put on them at any given time (DR). The reason this failed, in my opinion, is because people who are on the left don't want to be controlled. They don't want others to be controlled either, they want a dynamic opponent. They want an opponent who can adapt to what they are doing and counter. There was a certain rush in countering an opponent in the old PvP, now its almost like Im watching a movie at 1/4th the speed. This also failed because people on the right don't want the controls changed when they are "set." If a group of people attacks a fight club match in a zone, that is breaking the controls they set. They will get mad and not want to PvP because their controls are being broken.

All of the above is just my opinion based on nearly 10 issues of PvP. I have drawn on my experiences from being a newbie who hated PvP because his tank died really quickly, to a person who was willing to try it out because we had nothing better to do, to a person who leveled up a new character specifically for pvp, to a person who lead a PvP group on test, to a person who beta'd the new PvP, and finally, to a person who is disappointed in how something that was so fun has turned into something not. As a nerd, I lived and breathed the old PvP. I would sit at work and think of crazy lineups to run. My group would mentor people in zones and switch sides if things got unfair (Sometimes dividing us amongst both teams so that it was fun for everyone). I wasn't the best, but I still enjoyed it.

Most of my posts will come off as "high and mighty" when I talk about the old PvP because I have seen it all. Their isn't a single PvP situation in this gamethat someone can describe that I haven't personally experienced. I have a hard time taking people's reasoning for disliking the old PvP system when their statements are completely counter to what I have experienced. Its the same reason other old time PvPers come off as jaded and "Rude," Because its impossible for us, as experienced players, to understand the statements that are blatantly ignorant.


Ill close with this question: If you like the new PvP over the old, state why?

Yes, I think SW had a fly/SS specced empath. And I think Lastol had Fly/TP on his sonic.

Was fly the best option? no. But it could be useable. Most of my team would have the temp fly pack and would fly straight up on open maps if their phase was down and they needed to evade a little. With the 63month vet badge, it would have been easier to fit fly into builds.