New Classes for red and blue balance?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-09-04 05:28 in Suggestions and Ideas
Going Rogue will make this pointless, due to the side switching capabilities 
Edit: And Villains don't really need a pure-damage class... because all of them are more focused around damage than their hero counterparts
And no to turning Controllers into Masterminds... Controllers are already the most overpowered class in the game as it is!
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I think you're looking at the wrong people. From what I've seen both around teams and from friends, Brutes and Stalkers scrap, Dominators and Corruptors Blast and Masterminds do their own thing. You will be REALLY hard-pressed to paint Brutes as doing the tanking since they have Scrapper protection numbers and an inherent which boosts damage.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Hi
I know that there is no true one to one relationship between hero and villain classes, at least that is what has been advertised. But truthfully, if you play red side, you see their classes being played in a manner much reminiscent of blue side. Brute does the tanking, Dominators does the controlling, Corruptors does the defending, and Stalkers does the Scrapping. |
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| What the villains lack is the "Blasting" piece to help with group based damage. They need their own Blaster knock-off, giggles. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I disagree completely. While I am happy that most of the CoV ATs have a side-order of damage, the damage on just about ALL of them is decidedly "meh" if that's what you want out of the character. Even the ones who sort of manage have to do so by jumping through hoops and hula-dancing around complicated mechanics. Compare that to the pure, unadulterated simplicity of Build Up + Aim + Destroy that most blue-side Blasters are capable of and the draw to playing one should become evident. CoV simply lacks that kind of damage, and what damage it does provide never reaches THAT kind of scale.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Going Rogue will make this pointless, due to the side switching capabilities
Edit: And Villains don't really need a pure-damage class... because all of them are more focused around damage than their hero counterparts |
Granted, with Going Rogue we'll be able to just use Blasters, but making Blasters CoV-side will indeed be an act of filling a hole in the red-side AT structure.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I contradict myself later in this post, but to enhance the discussion:
Its not
brutes = tanks
stalkers = scrappers
Its
Stalkers = blasters
Brutes = scrappers
Why stalkers are more like blasters:
They are squishy just like blasters
Their burst damage is more similar to blasters than scrappers
They have an unresisted component to their damage
Brutes are also more like scrappers because they are less survivable than tanks and they have a much higher damage cap than tanks
Or, since this game wasn't setup with 2 factions by default, you can take each faction as is. There are no holes in the factions because they shouldn't be compared in that fashion
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I pretty much agree with this. The only thing missing, IMO, is stalkers being able to slot "sniper sets" into their assassins strike (which are mostly useless in the game due to the sheer limited number of ATs that get even one snipe attack). Yes, I realize they are called "sniper sets" for a reason, but I've always seen AS as a zero range sniper attack both strategically and mechanically. I'd be great if that one attack had access to a wider variety of sets considering that it is central to many stalkers combat style. (ARE there any stalkers that forgo taking or using this attack even?)
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Originally Posted by EmpYou
I contradict myself later in this post, but to enhance the discussion:
Its not brutes = tanks stalkers = scrappers Its Stalkers = blasters Brutes = scrappers Why stalkers are more like blasters: They are squishy just like blasters Their burst damage is more similar to blasters than scrappers They have an unresisted component to their damage Brutes are also more like scrappers because they are less survivable than tanks and they have a much higher damage cap than tanks Or, since this game wasn't setup with 2 factions by default, you can take each faction as is. There are no holes in the factions because they shouldn't be compared in that fashion |
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Blasters, Corruptors, Dominators, Defenders, and Stalkers (PPPs have a snipe) can all take snipe sets. That's half the non epic ATs in the game. How is that "A limited number of ATs that can take snipe sets?" (Some sets WITHIN those ATs, like Ice Blast, don't have snipes.) |
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
I pretty much agree with this. The only thing missing, IMO, is stalkers being able to slot "sniper sets" into their assassins strike (which are mostly useless in the game due to the sheer limited number of ATs that get even one snipe attack).
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Stalkers don't take the snipe because it takes way too long - eight seconds (unless that got reduced) and there are much better uses of stalking time. Like, playing golf.
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| I pretty much agree with this. The only thing missing, IMO, is stalkers being able to slot "sniper sets" into their assassins strike (which are mostly useless in the game due to the sheer limited number of ATs that get even one snipe attack). Yes, I realize they are called "sniper sets" for a reason, but I've always seen AS as a zero range sniper attack both strategically and mechanically. I'd be great if that one attack had access to a wider variety of sets considering that it is central to many stalkers combat style. (ARE there any stalkers that forgo taking or using this attack even?) |
Just chiming in, but don't stalkers get snipes in their Patron powers? This gives access to those sets. Personally, I never thought of AS as a snipe, but can see how it is a zero range snipe.
As for the last question, I have seen stalkers w/o AS, but in PvP, where it was better to have something else rather than try to set up an AS. My thought in PvE is that AS-less stalkers probably are as common as petless MM's or Granite-less tanks/brutes. IMO, players will play for something to be different or the challenge or just for the idea of it to test out.
Edit: Oops, I see I took too long to type and got beat by Bill.
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Actually - |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Hi
I know that there is no true one to one relationship between hero and villain classes, at least that is what has been advertised. But truthfully, if you play red side, you see their classes being played in a manner much reminiscent of blue side. Brute does the tanking, Dominators does the controlling, Corruptors does the defending, and Stalkers does the Scrapping. |
Brutes do the extended meleeing and, depending on set, aggro holding.
Masterminds can do the tanking and some debuffing.
Doms do the control and mixed (ranged and melee) damage.
Corruptors do ranged damage and some buffing/debuffing (not "defending,' thanks.)
Stalkers have a melee-Blaster role, and some can do a degree of scrapping.
Anyone trying to play a redside AT like a blueside AT is missing out on something.
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| The Mastermind is a class all to themselves, which has no mirror on the Blue side. Some may say the pet controllers are the blue answer; but they have to few pets and no control, despite their class name, over them. It would be acceptable, IMO, to buff up the Controller Pet classes (Fire, Illusion) to approach Mastermind like characteristics; but given the hold capacity of the controller which the mastermind can't match, perhaps a simple increase of creatured from 3 to 5 for the fire controllers, while the illusion's ghost army becomes permanent but the pets themselves are destructable, would make sense; yet still with out the direct control the mastermind has over its pets. I would advocate the controller pets' AI be relooked where if the controller is under attack, they would by default defend her, rather than ignore her need for defense; and also have them attack whatever she is attacking by default. |
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If we weren't going to have side switching, I'd be more sympathetic to the OP's argument. As it is, it truly is pointless. Once GR is live, if you want a blaster-equivalent red side what you'll do is create a villainous blaster. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Going Rogue will make this pointless, due to the side switching capabilities
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
I have to chime in and agree with the majority of posters here. If you're playing redsite ATs like you would blueside, you're simply doing it wrong. If anything, whenever I give blueside one of my attemps, I tend to play those ATs like I would redside ATs which leads to... less than optimal play in teams ("why is the controller in the middle of the battle? why is the tanker not waiting for us?").
Stalkers, I believe, have a 1.0 or higher modifier in their damage now, which makes them very much damage dealers. Not AoE, but damage dealers none the less. When you can one shot a minion without a crit without your tier 9 attack, it's pretty good damage. Not to mention Crab spiders (my second 50!) which does quite a bit of AoE damage. Granted, it's an epic and not till level 24.
My Corrupters usually have 2 builds. One is focussed on damage-dealing (i.e., blasting) while the other focuses on buff/debuff. I play either depending on mood and what a team is seeking.
My Dominators also tend to blast/deal damage as well, especially since I slot damage in many of the holds/immobs.
My Stalkers are pretty much pure damage-dealers, just in melee range.
"Problem" solved.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Quote cut down for several reasons! |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Hi
I know that there is no true one to one relationship between hero and villain classes, at least that is what has been advertised. But truthfully, if you play red side, you see their classes being played in a manner much reminiscent of blue side. Brute does the tanking, Dominators does the controlling, Corruptors does the defending, and Stalkers does the Scrapping. What the villains lack is the "Blasting" piece to help with group based damage. They need their own Blaster knock-off, giggles. |
Brutes does not tank, they're more scrappers really. Dominators are nothing like trollers and stalkers are definitely not scrappers, but Corrs are definitely blasters - but useful and good - unlike blasters!
...and permadoms can blast pretty god-darn good too if they so choose.
CoV and CoH imho are two completely different games, although very similar at a quick glance. The way a typical CoV team plays is very different from a hero team. While it's not the only reason, that's probably the main reason I rarely play hero-side anymore. Once you go red, you'd rather go dead than blue again.
Edit: Oh, hum... that's also why I really don't like the idea of GR being implemented after 5 years. It's just such a baaad idea, but I'll still get it just for the hope of some actual new content, even if I'll puke the first time I see a redside scrapper or fire/kin alt ill/rad troller. Oh, man, I feel sick already!
Brutes tank? *snicker* No, no silly. That's what Masterminds do.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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The issue with that is, if they made a red-side blaster then they'd have no self protection and therefore be less self sufficient than all the other CoVs ATs. That's what the CoV ATs do. They don't need the team but if everyone is focused in the same direction, the enemies will go down none the less.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I disagree completely. While I am happy that most of the CoV ATs have a side-order of damage, the damage on just about ALL of them is decidedly "meh" if that's what you want out of the character. Even the ones who sort of manage have to do so by jumping through hoops and hula-dancing around complicated mechanics. Compare that to the pure, unadulterated simplicity of Build Up + Aim + Destroy that most blue-side Blasters are capable of and the draw to playing one should become evident. CoV simply lacks that kind of damage, and what damage it does provide never reaches THAT kind of scale.
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Originally Posted by EmpYou
Why stalkers are more like blasters:
They are squishy just like blasters Their burst damage is more similar to blasters than scrappers They have an unresisted component to their damage |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Stalkers have a melee-Blaster role, and some can do a degree of scrapping.
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CoV ATs don't play singular roles, they are hybrid classes.
Corruptors are Blaster/Defenders
Dominators are Controllers/Blasters
Brutes are Scrappers/Tankers
Stalkers are Scrappers/Blasters
Masterminds are Tankers/Controllers
Each plays the role of both and if built right can specialize in one or the other. Even Stalkers. If you pick an AoE build and pump it with recharge bonuses, you can toss out AoE crits left and right for a more bursty AoE feel.
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I disagree entirely. A Corruptor is a Corruptor and should play as a Corruptor. A Dominator is a Dominator and should play as a Dominator. If anyone attemps to bring in any aspect of a blueside AT to a redside AT, it's bound to be weaker than someone who simply plays a redside AT as that redside AT. Otherwise, it'd be the same as me saying Blasters are Dominators/Corruptors, Scrappers are Brutes/Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Corruptors are Blaster/Defenders
Dominators are Controllers/Blasters Brutes are Scrappers/Tankers Stalkers are Scrappers/Blasters Masterminds are Tankers/Controllers |
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That ties into the first part of my posts. Each CoV AT is self sufficient. They have different playstyles thanks to the inherent.|
Originally Posted by Rikis
I disagree entirely. A Corruptor is a Corruptor and should play as a Corruptor. A Dominator is a Dominator and should play as a Dominator. If anyone attemps to bring in any aspect of a blueside AT to a redside AT, it's bound to be weaker than someone who simply plays a redside AT as that redside AT. Otherwise, it'd be the same as me saying Blasters are Dominators/Corruptors, Scrappers are Brutes/Stalkers.
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It relates to the quoted section because a Corruptor plays like a Corruptor, which is someone who's got respectable blasts that can buff/debuff. While a Corruptor isn't a defender, that doesn't dismiss the fact that if my Brute is nearly dead, the Corruptor can help me out and throw me a heal. That's defending. You can call it Corrupting but it was called defending first.
And while I said they can specialize in a particular role, that implies the weakness that goes along with it. That AoE stalker example I made will most likely have sub-par single target damage.
Masterminds = Tankers
Brutes = Scrappers
Stalkers = Blasters
Dominators = Controllers
Corruptors = Defenders
Kheldians = ....?
Soldiers of Arachnos = Posers
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
The Villain ATs were deliberately made to break the mould of typical MMO classes and to not have particular blueside counterparts. Trying to equate them only ends in arguments, confusion and the devs laughing.
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This. Especially since they can be very flexible in role depending on what sets they take (just like heroside ATs). A /stone brute can take the alphas a lot better, whereas an /EA can be more of a scrapper, going as far as to have a stealth aura they can use to avoid aggro. My earth/ dom 'tanks' by negating 95% of every spawn, every fight, unless they're disorient-resistant, and is usually running ahead of the team to do just that. A dark/dark corruptor can take alphas and lock down mobs; a fire/kin is basically a blaster on crack.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
The Villain ATs were deliberately made to break the mould of typical MMO classes and to not have particular blueside counterparts. Trying to equate them only ends in arguments, confusion and the devs laughing.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Good points. I guess I'll withdraw my previous statements
Have a rough chart of class overlappingness.
I think most redside classes sort of sit between two blues.
We always knew Blasters were evil anyways. Just look at who they hang out with. Heck, they're more evil than the other redside ATs according to that chart .
Hi
I know that there is no true one to one relationship between hero and villain classes, at least that is what has been advertised. But truthfully, if you play red side, you see their classes being played in a manner much reminiscent of blue side.
Brute does the tanking, Dominators does the controlling, Corruptors does the defending, and Stalkers does the Scrapping.
What the villains lack is the "Blasting" piece to help with group based damage. They need their own Blaster knock-off, giggles.
The Mastermind is a class all to themselves, which has no mirror on the Blue side. Some may say the pet controllers are the blue answer; but they have to few pets and no control, despite their class name, over them. It would be acceptable, IMO, to buff up the Controller Pet classes (Fire, Illusion) to approach Mastermind like characteristics; but given the hold capacity of the controller which the mastermind can't match, perhaps a simple increase of creatured from 3 to 5 for the fire controllers, while the illusion's ghost army becomes permanent but the pets themselves are destructable, would make sense; yet still with out the direct control the mastermind has over its pets. I would advocate the controller pets' AI be relooked where if the controller is under attack, they would by default defend her, rather than ignore her need for defense; and also have them attack whatever she is attacking by default.
Hugs
Stormy