pudds

Threads like this are why I spend most of my time playing WoW these days.

I look at it like this:

Lets say we discovered a bug whereby a team could press the right combination of keys at a specific time in the match and their targetted enemy would be kicked from the match.

It could be argued that arena crashes happen all the time, and that there would be no way to determine if the crash was legit, or if the exploit was used. Additionally, mastering the timing and coordination required to pull off the exploit would be difficult, and require signficant practice. Now, obviously being able to ensure that the opposition had one less player would be a big advantage; not necessarily enough to ensure a victory, but certainly a potential tipping point. As such, it could be argued that since it can't be precisely controlled, and both teams have the ability to practice and utilize the exploit, the bug is a non-issue, since both teams performing the exploit means that no team gains the advantage.

Of course, if such a bug existed, and a team was found to have used it, we would be outraged.

Obviously, vengeance isn't a bug of that magnitude, but it IS a bug, and a developer acknowledged one at that. There is no grey area here, its black and white; Vengeance stacking is unintended behavior. If we had GMs that cared about PvP, like a certain other game, players could potentially be suspended or banned for intentionally exploiting (ie: geometry exploits in WoW BGs).

The devs will fix it, eventually, but it could be some time. In the meantime, we have to remember that we're a small community, and we need to stick together. Things like this drive people away, and when we're dealing with a group of people that probably numbers less than 100, we need to avoid those things.

There is no reason, whatsoever, that groups shouldn't be able to agree to do without vengeance; it doesn't hurt the quality of PvP, it avoids the conflicts, and most importantly, it avoids the use of a known exploit. It makes no sense that we have a 30 page flamewar about this topic.

To my knowledge, there are 3 bugs/exploits that exist in arena PvP:

- Vengeance stacking
- Pre-stacked vengeance
- Warburg buff nuke after the countdown

All of these can be utilized by both teams. If two of them aren't ok, why are we arguing that one of them is?

Based on the previous attempt at removing vengeance stacking, I'd wager a guess that Nemesis will not be affected.

Name: Failure Unlimited
Server: Test
Faction: Primarily Heroes
Size: Small (11 members currently)
Website: www.failure-unlimited.info

Contact: @pudds, @xyza

Recruiting: Not actively. If you approach us, fit into the practice schedule and have something to bring to the table, we'll talk

No, the easy stacking in PvE comes from queueing vengeance on a dead body that's out of range, then using Recall Friend to bring them into range; all the queued vengeances will fire off simultaneously.

In PvP, it happens through a recently discovered exploit at the beginning of a match, as well as during matches through practiced coordination, typically a countdown over vent.

Fun with searching:

Statesman 05/04/05
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, thank you for everyone who got on the Training Room server and gave us feedback. It was always appreciated.

Secondly, I've got some news for the Superspeed and Super Jump crowd. The Accuracy debuff, though only equal to Flight, has negatively impacted players' gameplay. I challenged myself and our team to come up with a possible alternative to a flat out debuff - and yet still address the PvE and PvP issues with both powers.

Our solution: suppression. When someone attacks, they temporarily suppress their speed or leaping - making them temporarily vulnerable to attack (and we've removed the accuracy debuff). We're playtesting it internally now and we hope to get it up to the Training Room server for your input ASAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman 04/28/05 (Before the -tohit was changed to suppression)
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed.

We should try NEVER to change a power because of PvP alone (BTW, this is what I've always promised). The changes now aren't solely because of PvP - there's signifcant PvE issues, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Statesman 04/48/05)
[ QUOTE ]
We endeavor NOT to change powers solely because of PvP. The powers we are changing are usually because of PvE or PvE AND PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]

For other dev posts around the introduction of PvP, limit your search date to Older than 21 Months, Newer than 26.

Redname posts are saved, so I'd encourage to try and find when Stateman said this.

According to my recollection, the change was officially cited as a method of stopping players from "kiting" npcs, preventing any return fire. The original fix, which only lasted a few days before the eventual introduction of suppression, was a -50% tohit debuff to "encourage" players to turn off travel powers before attacking.

I was not a PvPer at the time, so its possible that I missed a post related to PvP, however I can't recall a single developer post that mentioned suppression and PvP.

I'm curious what it is the triggers the respawn at the start of the match....does the dead player respawn at the end of the timer, or does it just look that way because the 10 second timer is the same as the 10 second auto-rez time?

If that's the case, extending the countdown to 20 or 30 seconds could be a potential solution, as was as a nice fix for slow loaders.

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Can someone explain what this hubbub is about, that I may be in the loop?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1

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As pretty much everyone knows, despite my best efforts to prevent this power from stacking from multiple users, it can still be stacked.

At some point in the future, I *will* get code support to eliminate the problem. In the meantime, if people are abusing this loophole (it's an exploit but not an "Exploit" -- GM's and petitions won't do anything about it at this time) I suggest that you blacklist their team and simply do not engage them in PvP.

For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize its an "exploit" now but the fact that getting in stacked, particularly in large scale pvp matches, I don't think hurts the game. I remember when I first started joined LD you couldnt pay someone to stay dead, as they would always hit the respawn button forgetting to stay dead for me to get vengance off, being able to stay dead/gather/and time a buff to me takes practice/cooperation/ and maybe a bit of luck. Its on par with a good spike or a great rush and nuke of the opposing team. Thats my opinion anyways, not like the change will affect my 1 vs 1 action. Though the pre-vengance stacking before a match is quite wrong, even if you fix the stacking, one vengance pre-match is just as wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's an excellent point; even without stacking, starting a match with even one vengeance without a teammate death is an unfair advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
the devious villain known only as asdfjkl;
and feared for his mind boggling look which was created by tapping the random costume button twice, attacks you from inside of the wall where you cannot target him. repeatedly defeating you, over and over. mwahaha haa!
He gloats from his seat of power "JOO JUS GOT TEH PWONZORD NOOOB!!!!11"

yeah, some great "player driven content" there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've never actually PvP'd, have you?

I have no problem missing, even missing most of the time, if I haven't chosen to focus on my hit chance.

Its when I've invested in hitting (ie: 2 slots dedicated to accuracy) that it bothers me to miss.

1) Against a target that has no defense, and assuming that I have at least slotted my attacks with 2 Accuracies, I'd expect to hit with nearly every attack. If I missed with more than one from my attack chain of 4-5 attacks, I'd be a bit annoyed. If you mean no tohit buffs and no accuracy slotted, I'd expect to miss basically my whole chain.

2) I'd be a bit annoyed if I missed even a single attack.

3) I wouldn't expect to hit at all.

4) I'd expect to hit more than I missed, but not much. Enough that I felt like I was actually hitting, but not like he had no defense at all. 75% feels about right.


Basically my ideal situation would be one where no defense meant hitting almost 100% of the time. More +ToHit than +Defense should equate to roughly the same situation, and more +Defense than +ToHit should result in majority misses.

For the most part, I think the current system hits the mark reasonably (mechanically speaking, in practice, there is simply too much +ToHit available). Where I feel things tend to break down is at even amounts of ToHit and Defense; in this case, it feels like you're hitting too much, and that high defense simply doesn't stack up to high +tohit.

Anyone that thinks that there are no PvPers that behave with respect for each other has been hanging out in the zones for way too long.

This is going to turn into a massive flamewar, but I agree completely.

PvP is the only sustainable end-game...everything else just delays the boredom.

[ QUOTE ]
name sounds so familiar to me but cant put a toon or group to his name. Sucks to hear it though, unfortunately life is one game we all lose at one point or another sometimes way too soon for some.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was formerly of Old School, currently of HVND. His most common character was Veil Murder, but he also commonly played PTSD, illmatic and Veil Disco.

I'm at a loss for words...this sucks.

CoH was released less than 3 years ago...

Looks like Red broke your link again

Here's the updated City of Data link for Power Boost.

Sounds like the GVE Jump Pack.

A bigger list of -fly powers, based on City of Data and patch notes.

Flight Pool (1)
Air Superiority

Blaster Primary (0)
None

Blaster Secondary (4)
Devices - Web Grenade
Fire - Ring of Fire
Fire - Hotfeet
Ice - Chilblain

Controller Primary (13)
Earth - Stone Prison
Earth - Stone Cages
Earth - Quicksand
Fire - Ring of Fire
Fire - Fire Cages
Fire - Hotfeet
Gravity - Crush
Gravity - Lift
Gravity - Gravity Distortion (per patch notes)
Gravity - Crushing Field
Gravity - Singularity (Lift/Crush)
Ice - Chilblain
Ice - Frostbite

Controller Secondary (3)
Storm - Snow Storm
Trick Arrow - Entangling Arrow
Trick Arrow - Glue Arrow

Defender Primary (4)
Dark - Tarpatch
Storm - Snow Storm
Trick Arrow - Entangling Arrow
Trick Arrow - Glue Arrow

Defender Secondary (0)
None

Scrapper Primary (2)
Martial Arts - Crippling Axe Kick
Spines - Impale

Scrapper Secondary (0)
None

Tanker Primary (0)
None

Tanker Secondary (2)
Stone - Hurl Boulder
Super Strength - Hurl

Peacebringer (3)
Radiant Strike
Incandescent Strike
White Dwarf Smite

Warshade (1)
Black Dwark Smite

--------

Brute Primary (2)
Stone - Hurl Boulder
Super Strength - Hurl

Brute Secondary(0)
None

Corruptor Primary (0)
None

Corruptor Secondary (3)
Cold - Snow Storm
Dark - Tarpatch
Traps - Web Grenade

Dominator Primary (14)
Fire - Ring of Fire
Fire - Fire Cages
Fire - Hotfeet
Gravity - Crush
Gravity - Lift
Gravity - Gravity Distortion (per patch notes)
Gravity - Crushing Field
Gravity - Singularity (Lift/Crush)
Ice - Chilblain
Ice - Frostbite
Plant - Entangle
Plant - Roots
Plant - Carrion Creeper
Plant - Fly Trap (Entangle)

Dominator Secondary (1)
Thorns - Impale

Mastermind Primary (3)
Ninjas - Oni (Ring of Fire - per patch notes)
Mercenaries - Spec Ops (Web Grenade)
Thugs - Bruiser (Hurl)

Mastermind Secondary (4)
Dark - Tarpatch
Traps - Web Grenade
Trick Arrow - Entangling Arrow
Trick Arrow - Glue Arrow

Stalker Primary (2)
Martial Arts - Crippling Axe Kick
Spines - Impale

Stalker Secondary (0)
None

-----------------------

A grand total of 61 powers with -fly attached (and I may well have missed a few). Every archetype is represented, though warshades have the least opportunity for -fly, since they can't take AS and only get one in Dwarf form.

Yea, it was OS/Shadow Empire that finished it first.

GG Sing.

I think its because they theoretically could be affected by weaken/benumb (reverse power boost), but aren't.

Try it without a shivan.

I debated on including the recipes, but some of them (like the hold protection) are big; like 6 ingredients each. Basically, I got lazy, and wasn't sure how to present them. Perhaps I'll add that to a version 2...