1) Against a target that has no defense, and assuming that I have at least slotted my attacks with 2 Accuracies, I'd expect to hit with nearly every attack. If I missed with more than one from my attack chain of 4-5 attacks, I'd be a bit annoyed. If you mean no tohit buffs and no accuracy slotted, I'd expect to miss basically my whole chain.
2) I'd be a bit annoyed if I missed even a single attack.
3) I wouldn't expect to hit at all.
4) I'd expect to hit more than I missed, but not much. Enough that I felt like I was actually hitting, but not like he had no defense at all. 75% feels about right.
Basically my ideal situation would be one where no defense meant hitting almost 100% of the time. More +ToHit than +Defense should equate to roughly the same situation, and more +Defense than +ToHit should result in majority misses.
For the most part, I think the current system hits the mark reasonably (mechanically speaking, in practice, there is simply too much +ToHit available). Where I feel things tend to break down is at even amounts of ToHit and Defense; in this case, it feels like you're hitting too much, and that high defense simply doesn't stack up to high +tohit.
If I said: "_Castle_, thanks for caring enough to stop by and ask."
Would that be considered brown nosing?
pudds said:
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1) Against a target that has no defense, and assuming that I have at least slotted my attacks with 2 Accuracies, I'd expect to hit with nearly every attack. If I missed with more than one from my attack chain of 4-5 attacks, I'd be a bit annoyed. If you mean no tohit buffs and no accuracy slotted, I'd expect to miss basically my whole chain.
2) I'd be a bit annoyed if I missed even a single attack.
3) I wouldn't expect to hit at all.
4) I'd expect to hit more than I missed, but not much. Enough that I felt like I was actually hitting, but not like he had no defense at all. 75% feels about right.
Basically my ideal situation would be one where no defense meant hitting almost 100% of the time. More +ToHit than +Defense should equate to roughly the same situation, and more +Defense than +ToHit should result in majority misses.
For the most part, I think the current system hits the mark reasonably (mechanically speaking, in practice, there is simply too much +ToHit available). Where I feel things tend to break down is at even amounts of ToHit and Defense; in this case, it feels like you're hitting too much, and that high defense simply doesn't stack up to high +tohit.
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If you mean no tohit buffs and no accuracy slotted, I'd expect to miss basically my whole chain.
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Agreed except for this. No To-Hit and no Defense, on 4-5 attacks I would expect 2 to hit consistently w/ the 3rd being questionable, and the other 1 or 2 being lucky hits if they hit.
I have no problem missing, even missing most of the time, if I haven't chosen to focus on my hit chance.
Its when I've invested in hitting (ie: 2 slots dedicated to accuracy) that it bothers me to miss.
Yeah, i think it's just that it's too easy to get tohit. Play against an SR scrapper without using tohit. It's fairly well balanced in my experience. However i think the defense cap is a little too high. When a resistance set hits their tier 9 they can at least be slowed down by debuffs and holds. However when an SR hits elude they can get away with just about anything if there isn't an empath forting people or something.
I agree pretty much with pudds values...and I'd also like to state that pretty much the amount of +To Hit buffs and -Defense Debuffs really make defense pretty worthless.
People activate PFF and can't even attack and still spiked through it, lol. Defense and To Hit is definitely a "fine line", but right now I think defense is on the short end.
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I have no problem missing, even missing most of the time, if I haven't chosen to focus on my hit chance.
Its when I've invested in hitting (ie: 2 slots dedicated to accuracy) that it bothers me to miss.
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Even if your opponent didn't have to invest in any Defense?
If I haven't invested any To-Hit and my opponent hasn't invested in Defense it should be 50/50.
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1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I'd expect to hit 50% of the time. As the defender, I'd expect to be missed 50% of the time.
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I'd expect to hit most of the time (95%). As the defender, I'd expect the attacker to nearly never miss (5% of the time.)
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3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I should rarely expect to hit (hitting 5% of the time). As the defender, I'd never want to be missed a lot (being missed 95% of the time).
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I'd expect to miss a lot (hitting 5% of the time). As the defender, I'd expect the attacker would never hit (missing 95% of the time). However, In PvP, defense should have a reasonable cap, so that an attacker with well slotted accuracy and/or ToHit buffs can hit, say 25-30% of the time.
lex parsimoniae: entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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However, In PvP, defense should have a reasonable cap, so that an attacker with well slotted accuracy and/or ToHit buffs can hit, say 25-30% of the time.
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Again, the problem with this thinking is there is WAY more +To Hit buffs then there are +Defense buffs, especially if there is a cap in place.
So basically, Defense with a cap becomes no defense at all when players are buffed to the hilt.
Right now in matches, it's hard to get a gauge of where defense sits, because people stack vengeance through the roof (despite that it's not SUPPOSED to stack) but on my other thread, I made a basic list comparing everything
http://tinyurl.com/2ky36c
I have the two proposals there. Honestly, I think that tohit buffs need an overhaul as well anyway, but my first proposal would be a step in the right direction. however, doing both would be total overkill in favor of defense sets.
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However, In PvP, defense should have a reasonable cap, so that an attacker with well slotted accuracy and/or ToHit buffs can hit, say 25-30% of the time.
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Again, the problem with this thinking is there is WAY more +To Hit buffs then there are +Defense buffs, especially if there is a cap in place.
So basically, Defense with a cap becomes no defense at all when players are buffed to the hilt.
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Don't want to go into mechanics, per _Castle_'s request, but it does not have to be this way.
lex parsimoniae: entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I'd expect to hit 50% of the time. As the defender, I'd expect to be missed 50% of the time.
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I'd say thats about right
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I'd expect to hit most of the time (95%). As the defender, I'd expect the attacker to nearly never miss (5% of the time.)
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I'd prefer to see about 90% chance to hit and 10% to be missed.
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3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I should rarely expect to hit (hitting 5% of the time). As the defender, I'd never want to be missed a lot (being missed 95% of the time).
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I'd have it at 10% chance to hit 90% chance to be missed.
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker, I'd expect to miss a lot (hitting 5% of the time). As the defender, I'd expect the attacker would never hit (missing 95% of the time). However, In PvP, defense should have a reasonable cap, so that an attacker with well slotted accuracy and/or ToHit buffs can hit, say 25-30% of the time.
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I think the max vs max should me take us back to default vs default. 50% chance to hit 50% chance to be missed.
My answers are based upon a PVP perspective.
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1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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In this situation I expect as the attacker to hit 50% of the time assuming no slotting of accuracy. As the defender I would expect misses 50% of the time.
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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As the attacker I WANT to hit 95% of the time. As the defender I expect to be missed 5% of the time.
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3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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I don't understand this question. Is it a "maximum defense value" based upon their archetype? My answer would vary but I'll go under the assumption you meant somebody with a defense cap of 95% in which case I as the attacker expect to hit 5% of the time. As the defender in this case I expect to be missed 95% of the time.
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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This question touches upon the root of the problem with defense sets in that there are too many +tohit powers in existence. Of course I as the attacker would want to hit him more than 50% but that would be unfair to the defender who would want to be missed more than 50%. In every question the defender would take 100% damage from any attack that hits. That's another part of the problem.
The answer to this question is that I as the attacker expect under the current system to hit 95% of the time. As the defender I expect to be missed 5% of the time. The latter half being my experience in pvp zones playing as a /ninjitsu stalker.
<qr>
1) With no enhancements on either side, totally level, I'd expect 80% accuracy against NPCs. Enough to hit most of the time, with still the fear you'd miss.
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The answer to this question is that I as the attacker expect under the current system to hit 95% of the time. As the defender I expect to be missed 5% of the time. The latter half being my experience in pvp zones playing as a /ninjitsu stalker.
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To clarify here: Does this mean, in a perfectly balanced system, you would expect Max To Hit to always completely negate Max Defense? That's how I read what you have written.
To everyone:
The availability of To Hit buffs is a seperate question. Assume for purposes of this exercise that you have access to buffs far beyond what you would need to reach a maximum value.
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Right now in matches, it's hard to get a gauge of where defense sits, because people stack vengeance through the roof (despite that it's not SUPPOSED to stack) but on my other thread, I made a basic list comparing everything
http://tinyurl.com/2ky36c
I have the two proposals there. Honestly, I think that tohit buffs need an overhaul as well anyway, but my first proposal would be a step in the right direction. however, doing both would be total overkill in favor of defense sets.
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Vengeance stacking is a huge problem...
I agree with pudds on every point.
In a perfectly balanced system, Defense should have the same expectation for performance that Resistance has, regardless of accuracy and/or ToHit buffs. This, currently, is not true.
lex parsimoniae: entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
Guys, i don't think the question is "Do you know the current defense values?" like some people seem to be answering. It's more "If you designed the game, what chances to hit would you design in these situations?"
As for my answer: What it is now except cap it at 90% both sides comapred to the current 95%.
1) Base Tohit/Def
PvP, no acc slotted: I like the 50% chance, it evens the fight, he has nothing, I got nothing.
PvE, I think it works fine, but 75% feels really low at TO levels.
2) Max tohit / base def
PvE I think 95% chance to hit works fine.
PvP As the defender, if he's pumped up on to hit, he deserves to smack me around. But to hits are so easy to get, it would be only fair to give the defender a fighting chance, 90% perhaps?
3) Base tohit / max defense
Same answer as in (2), but wuth 5% / 10%
4) Max tohit / max defense
I expect things to even out all the way to the answer in (1), 50/50, fair fight. However, if the tohit/defense evens out to 50%, accuracy will really turn the tide in favor of the offender. So this should be taken into account.
For the purposes of this post I'll take WANT to mean "Realistically Expect."
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1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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Lacking accuracy and to hit buffs of any sort I expect to hit an even con Minion 60% of the time, an even con Lieutenant or Player 50% of the time, and an even con Boss or AV 40% of the time.
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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With maximum accuracy and to hit buffs against zero defense I should hit everything 95% of the time.
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3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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Lacking any accuracy and to hit buffs against maximum defense I should hit 5% of the time.
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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Max accuracy and max to hit versus max defense should even out to a chance to hit of 50%.
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
I would want to hit 2 out of 3 attacks, and as the defender expect to be missed 1 out of 3 attacks from an opponent. Though a 50/50 split would make sense under the criteria, an encounter that results in a large percentage of misses can be infinitely more frustrating than being hit a lot(dmg can be mitigated through healing and resistance as well, when hit).
2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
I would want to hit 9 out of 10 times, leaving a chance to miss for unpredictability. As a defender, I would expect to be hit with every attack with an occasional lucky miss.
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
I would want to hit 1 out of 5 times. As a defender, I would expect to be missed by a large majority of the attacks, 4 out of 5.
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
I would want to hit 5 out of 10 times, and as the defender expect to be missed by half of the attacks. Capped defense should never negated by To Hit alone, rather by To Hit and -def debuff, IMO.
1. Default To Hit vs default Defense, assuming no buffs and no accuracies I'd want to hit a little bit more than half the time (in PvP) or just most of the time (in PvE) and as the defender I'd expect about the same.
2. Maximum To Hit versus default Defense I'd be upset if I missed (in PvE and PvP). Heck, I WANT to hit almost all the time in that instance with my blaster's targeting drone being the only To Hit buff I have up (in PvE anyway, I expect it to be mostly worthless in PvP unless I have at least one acc enhancement to back it up). As the defender I expect pretty much the same thing, all that'll save me from being hit is the 5% chance to miss that's always there.
3. If I had the maximum Defense versus an opponent with the default To Hit, I'd want to be hit mostly not at all, sort of the opposite as my feeling in question #2 (both PvE and PvP). I also expect to be in trouble trying to hit someone that well buffed.
4. The maximum To Hit versus the maximum Defense, I WANT to hit them most of the time, but I'd expect (and in all fairness, it's how it really should be I think) for the two buffs to cancel each other out and be back in the same position as question #1.
I also think it should be harder than it currently is to reach high levels of To Hit bonus, but that's just me. Oh, and also that targeting drone needs something to improve its performance versus the sets with build up, but that's a different topic isn't it.
Edit: To add numbers to my nebulous commentaries.
1 - 60%-70% chance to hit.
2 - 95% chance to hit, 5% chance to be missed
3 - 5% chance to hit, 95% chance to be missed
5 - back to the original.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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50 Percent to hit as an attacker, 50 percent to dodge as a defender.
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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Attacker: Expect to hit 90 percent of the time. Defender: Expect to be missed 10 percent of the time.
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3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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Attacker should hit 10 percent of the time, Defender should dodge 90 percent of the time.
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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This should be reset down to the default 50/50 hit chance from the first scenario.
First off, this post is *NOT* a precursor of any particular impending change. The topic is strictly informative and for discussion.
I'd like to know about breakpoints for To Hit and Defense and how you, the players, think it should work. I'm not talking about mechanics -- I'm talking about the expectations you have in a fight.
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?