[ QUOTE ]
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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1 - Missing shouldn't be an issue unless -some- defense is in play. I'd expect to hit about 75% of the time. As a target, I wouldn't depend on misses to save me if I'm not using any defense powers at all. If my attacker misses one out of four attacks, I'd consider myself lucky. So 25% miss rate sounds about right.
2 - If I've just popped aim, or swallowed a bunch of yellows or both, I really really want that next attack to land. So it should be pretty much a guarantee against an undefended opponent. 95% chance to hit. As a target, I would hope for a miss, but wouldn't expect that to happen... 5-10% miss rate in that case.
3 - I should be really frustrated trying to get an attack through that kind of defense. I'd say a 90% miss rate wouldn't be out of line. And if I've just popped that many purples or have that much stacked defense in my power set, I'd expect to walk among the unbuffed with impunity. 10% hit tops.
4-When to-hit and defense are both capped, I would tend to favor the defender, simply because that makes the fight more interesting. As an attacker, I'd expect to hit about 30% of the time, and as the target with all that defense, I'd like to be able to count on 70% misses, even with a focused-accuracy snipe. Otherwise, there's no point to sacrificing to get that kind of defense.
By capped defense and tohit i think he means the ultimate cap. Isn't it around the 400% mark? It's like if you cap perception and stealth you can still only be seen from 10 foot if you are a stalker. If you had 100 FFers backing you up, and your opponent had 100 thermals casting forge on them, how often would you want to get hit? Of course the cap is really high so this situation almost never arises. With the current system the amount you can get is much more important than the cap.
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Guys, i don't think the question is "Do you know the current defense values?" like some people seem to be answering. It's more "If you designed the game, what chances to hit would you design in these situations?"
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Correct.
I think I would expect the difference in level of the attacker and defender to be taken into account, as well as any bonuses.
In other words, I'd expect a level 50 to never miss when fighting a level 1, or only ever miss at the fumble rate, which I think is 5%. And a level 1 to always miss when targeting a level 50.
Of course, this would really screw up any--eventual-- plans to increase the level cap incrementally... as the 2% per level would be difficult with, say, a level cap of 60 
(Heh... I'd also like to receive at least 1 prestige point per mob, irregardless of level difference. Stopping to rescue a citizen from a mugger or a purse snatcher on your way through Atlas Park to Recluse's Victory should still count towards the "heroic reputation" prestige ostensibly represents!)
Some days I just wake up cranky. Today might be one of those days...
[ QUOTE ]
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
I expect an attacker at the to-hit cap to hit a defender at the defense cap 25% of the time, or half of what you'd see if both were at base.
I had a long explanation for this but it got into too many mechanics.
- Protea
Edit: for the first 3 questions, the existing in-game numbers are fine (50% base, 95% cap, 5% floor).
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
1) 75% (Current PvE base ACC?)
2) 95%
3) 5%
4) 50%. At the max possible defense value, you always should be able to dodge half of what is thrown at you.
What Pudds Said.
1) 75%
2) 95%
3) 5%
4) 66-75%
I'll say this, as an Ice Tank who chooses to invest *heavily* in defense (with about 44-45% def to s/l/e/ne) I don't think 2 slotted accuracy should be enough to hit me more than 1 time in 4. 3 slotted acc maybe 1 time in 3. 2 slotted acc, plus tactics, plus native tohit bonus (drawn weapon), maybe in the neighborhood of 1 in 3. BU + Aim should be in the neighborhood of 4 out of 5.
Now I understand that if I'm getting ganked by a team with stacked tactics, def debuffs, tohit buffs etc, I'm gonna get creamed, unless I have my own team. But one on one those are the values I'm expecting.
[ QUOTE ]
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the values we have for this are fine. 3 hits out of every 4 is okay, especially when other factors are balanced (big damage attacks can't be used as often and take longer to use, etc.)
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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In this case, I don't think misses should be common at all. There should always be *some* chance to miss, but it should be minimal. 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 would be acceptable to me. The key thing to remember is that people remember exceptional events, so you want to make them seem as rare as possible. You can't always get around the heuristics used in memory, but you can help minimize them.
[ QUOTE ]
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hits should be 1 in 50 to 1 to 100 or so in this case. A character with the maximum defense value should be functionally unhittable, in the same way a character with the maximum tohit value should functionally never miss.
That having been said, these maximum values should be very, very hard to attain. Right now, it's easier to get very high to-hit than it is to get very high defense. For the symmetrical system I'd like to see to work, you can't have an imbalance in the availability of these effects. You can't have a 1-click +100% tohit button, nor can you have a 4 minute duration +100% defense button. Any asymmetry is going to promote FotM play or force choices on players. The Stealth/Perception battle is an excellent example of such an asymmetry at work. Another example is the effect of +Acc Enhancements and innate Acc versus the effects of +Def powers and their Enhancements.
[ QUOTE ]
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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We're back to the situation in #1 as far as I'm concerned.
The ability to successfully hit a target should be based on the relative difference of your attack skill to their defense skill, IMO. To the extent that they differ, the likelihood of an attack connecting should differ. That gets the right balance, more or less, though higher defense should produce more "glancing" blows, and higher attack should produce more "crushing" blows. The developer is directed to the combat system in WoW and in several tabletop RPGs where hit quality, as determined by attack minus defense, influences damage output (WoD/Aeonverse/Exalted being the example that comes to mind immediately).
These are all concerning PvP
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1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
50/50.
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
95/5
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3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
5/95
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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50/50 again.
I feel their should be a 45% maximum increase to ToHit. This would be matched with a 45% maximum defense bonus. For each point of defense up to 45, it would always make you 1% harder to hit.
So let's take a toon with 20 points of defense. If the attacker had no improvements, they would have a 30/70 chance to hit the fellow with 20 defense. If they maxed out accuracy/ToHit then it would Cap them at 75/25. So a chart would look like this:
Defense----------Reg Chance ToHit-----------Maxed Chance Tohit
1-------------------------49/51-------------------------94/6
5-------------------------45/55-------------------------90/10
10------------------------40/60-------------------------85/15
15------------------------35/65-------------------------80/20
20------------------------30/70-------------------------75/25
25------------------------25/75-------------------------70/30
30------------------------20/80-------------------------65/35
35------------------------15/85-------------------------60/40
40------------------------10/90-------------------------55/45
45------------------------05/95-------------------------50/50
This is my take.
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First off, this post is *NOT* a precursor of any particular impending change. The topic is strictly informative and for discussion.
I'd like to know about breakpoints for To Hit and Defense and how you, the players, think it should work. I'm not talking about mechanics -- I'm talking about the expectations you have in a fight.
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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i think 1-3 should stay the way they are in game, i think i got the values right for them
1. 50%, 50%
2. 95%, 5%
3. 5%, 95%
4. 50%, 50%
but i think the defender should have a lower end cap on how low their minimum defense could ever go, let's say a value like 5% + half of the value of thier defense
vice versa i could suggest that there is a maximum tohit value that can ever be hit, lets say 45% is the highest tohit value anyone could ever have, this way they can still hit the cap against people with no defense but never hit the cap against people with any defense
something along the lines of both of these implemented might be a great idea
[ QUOTE ]
First off, this post is *NOT* a precursor of any particular impending change. The topic is strictly informative and for discussion.
I'd like to know about breakpoints for To Hit and Defense and how you, the players, think it should work. I'm not talking about mechanics -- I'm talking about the expectations you have in a fight.
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
To answer these questions in the way you want the answers, I have to remove the loaded terms in them that mean something technical to me. I'm therefore going to paraphrase:
1. Given that you've taken no steps to improve your ability to hit your target, and your target has taken no steps to avoid being hit, I expect to hit the target 50% of the time in PvP, and not just because of any specific game mechanical technical issue, but because 50/50 makes sense in terms of player vs player interaction: the chance to hit is equal to the chance to miss. In PvE, this chance can be higher: I have no specific expectation in PvE, except that if its different from PvP, it should probably be higher and not lower.
2. If I've done everything possible to improve my ability to hit the target, and the target has done nothing to reduce that ability, I should hit the target at the maximum possible rate that the game allows. In CoH that would be 95%, but there's nothing special about that number.
3. If I've done nothing to improve my chances to hit, and the target has done everything possible to cause me to miss, I expect to miss the target at the highest possible miss rate, which in CoH is 5%, but there is nothing specifically significant about that number.
4. If I've done everything possible to improve my chances to hit, and the target has done everything possible to reduce my chances to miss, I expect to be in the same situation as #1.
It goes without saying that I consider the above statements symmetric when I'm the target as when I'm the attacker.
I'll add something for reference: I consider the criteria above necessary but not sufficient for balance. You already know what I think is necessary and sufficient for balance, and I've already proposed a couple of ways to do it, including my personal favorite.
One more observation: given the current game mechanics, #4 is currently an impossible criteria to meet, and its at the core of how I want to fix it.
Edit: on retrospect, I need to add that these boundary conditions are not really the issue, because the real issues occur within the boundaries, where the situation becomes more complex. In fact, as stated, the questions have a linear implication to them that is actually part of the problem. The real question is this: for *any* value of defense, what should the *incremental* effort be to increase or decrease the ability to hit for the attacker and the defender. Its a short question, but it encapsulates literally millions of words of debatable tohit issues.
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I am abstaining from the topic but posting to let _Castle_ know I feel his questions are out of true context and as such results gathered from his questions will ultimately be invalid.
Let the discussion continue.
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The answer to this question is that I as the attacker expect under the current system to hit 95% of the time. As the defender I expect to be missed 5% of the time. The latter half being my experience in pvp zones playing as a /ninjitsu stalker.
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To clarify here: Does this mean, in a perfectly balanced system, you would expect Max To Hit to always completely negate Max Defense? That's how I read what you have written.
To everyone:
The availability of To Hit buffs is a seperate question. Assume for purposes of this exercise that you have access to buffs far beyond what you would need to reach a maximum value.
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In a perfectly balanced system I would want defense to not be completely negated by +tohit or accuraccy. That is the freaking problem I'm having now. I anwered your fourth question from the pvp perspective of what my CURRENT experience is like. In other words how it is right now.
In regards to hypothetical, specific numbers or percentages that I'd like to see in regards to the fourth question? how about the attacker hitting 25% of the time and the defender being missed 75% of the time
<QR>
Even if they went with 75% chance base accuracy, then the max chances I listed should still apply.
1] In the PvE aspect of the game I think the 75% tohit base works fine. In PvP I think the base tohit vs. no defense should be 50%. I think that the ability to aquire +ToHit screws over Defense in PvP. The +ToHit values given to high damaging ATs and Power Sets are way too high. I think this needs to be evaluated.
2] In PvE I'd expect to hit 100% of the time. In PvP, as the attacker with Maximum ToHit, I would expect to hit 100% of the time. To me that's what "maximum" means. As the Defender (FF to be percise) I would expect to be missed 5% of the time. It seems illogical to me that being a "master of defense" I'd wouldn't have even a 5% chance to evade an attack.
3] In PvE, with no ToHit buffs I'd expect to miss 100% of the time because my target has 100% Defense. I'd expect not to be hit (in PvE) because I have 100% Defense. In PvP I'd expect the same.
4] Maximum Defense vs. Maximum ToHit should equal a 50/ 50 playing field. Right now that isn't the case in PvP. Unless I'm in PFF I seem to get hit 75-95% of the time. That's with Dispersion, Hover, and Maneuvers 4 slotted for Defense.
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[ QUOTE ]
I am abstaining from the topic but posting to let _Castle_ know I feel his questions are out of true context and as such results gathered from his questions will ultimately be invalid.
Let the discussion continue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you just spurting flub, or can you explain how they are out of context. I honestly am curious. These sorts of statements are nothing but useless dev harassment w/o any sort of explaination.
If my understanding of the current game mechanics are correct, I'm happy with the current values for 1-3. I have no idea how situation 4 currently plays out. Here's what I would like/expect...
1) default To Hit vs. no Defense: 75%
2) max To Hit vs. no Defense: 95%
3) default To Hit vs. max Defense: 5%
4) max To Hit vs. max Defense: 25% (I'd like the buffed ToHit to come into play, but defense should get the edge.)
My answers wouldn't change giving or receiving.
f.b.
[ QUOTE ]
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
50/50 I expect this situation to be even for both the defender and attacker.
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2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
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90/10 The attacker should hit the vast majority of their attacks and the defender should expect to be hit by the vast majority of attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
10/90 I shouldn't expect to hit them if they've invested in their defenses and as the defender I should expect them to miss and often.
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4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
No matter how much to-hit I gain I should never reduce someone who's invested in their defense back to a default setting...as the defender I expect the slots and powers I invest in to always give me protection no matter what I'm fighting.
25% chance to hit 75% chance to avoid.
For this I expect the caps to change in what a single player can achieve on their own.
Blasters being the most offense should be able to cap to-hit within their powers sets.
Tankers should be able to cap defense within their primary.
All other AT's should be adjusted off of those two AT's to fit within their role.
Again those numbers are based off of pure to-hit vs defense values..you want to hit someone more then 25% who has capped defense, defense debuffs need to be applied in addition to your capped to-hit.
1) Base To-hit vs Base Defense
I think this should be 50/50
2) Max To-hit vs Base Defense
95/5
3) Base To-hit vs Max Defense
5/95
4) Max To-hit vs Max Defense
Using the perception/stealth caps we have now as a base there is a predisposition towards the defender (stealth cap being slightly higher than perception cap) So I would apply this same circumstance to to-hit/defense as well
45/55 or maybe even 40/60
EDIT: oh before I forget, both of these caps should be able to be exceeded since debuffs can be factored in.
I never really get involved in these discussions because if I did, I'd be tied in all day with all the games I play, lol.
But this is one game with one issue that I feel rather strongly about, so I'll say my 2 cents:
I strongly feel that in general, it is *far* too often that characters miss the enemy. I could go on about how this manifests itself, but to get to the point--I would become a good deal happier if you could hit the enemies more often by default (even if one must sacrifice some damage to do so!). And yes, I have many accuracy enhancements in my powers
Every miss just feels so un-heroic!!
1) 50% hit, 50% miss
2) 90% hit, 10% miss
3) 10% hit, 90% miss
4) 55% hit, 45% miss
I'm interpreting "max" in 2, 3, and 4 as the absolute maximum with lots and lots of buffs. I'd like to see #4 remain true for most self-buff powers, with Aim being the absolute highest possible +to_hit buff out there.
-- War
A discussion like this about Defense really should not take place in a vacuum. If defense was the only part of the total damage mitigation a player had, I would agree that if the attacker had maxed ToHit and defender had maxed defense, the a 50% hit ratio makes sense. Defense is not the only component to total damage mitigation. Thus, Defense really needs to be compared with Resistance. The following chart shows that relation, using the same critera in the original post:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Base ToHit ToHit Buff Defense Net ToHit Resistance Total Damage Mitigation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.5 0.0 0.0 0.5 0.0 0.5
0.5 0.45 0.0 0.95 0.0 0.05
0.5 0.0 0.45 0.05 0.0 0.95
0.5 0.0 0.0 0.5 0.9 0.95
0.5 0.45 0.45 0.0 0.0 0.5
0.5 0.45 0.0 0.95 0.9 0.91
Base ToHit Accuracy Defense Net ToHit Resistance Total Damage Mitigation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.5 0.0 0.0 0.5 0.0 0.5
0.5 0.95 0.0 0.95 0.0 0.05
0.5 0.0 0.45 0.05 0.0 0.95
0.5 0.0 0.0 0.5 0.9 0.95
0.5 0.95 0.45 0.1 0.0 0.9
0.5 0.95 0.0 0.95 0.9 0.91
</pre><hr />
The higher the total damage mitigation, the less damage the defending character takes.
I added a comparison using accuracy, for completeness.
lex parsimoniae: entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
[ QUOTE ]
1) You have the default To Hit value (ie no buffs), your target has no Defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
50/50
[ QUOTE ]
2) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has no defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
95%.
[ QUOTE ]
3) You have the default To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
5%.
[ QUOTE ]
4) You have the maximum possible To Hit value, and your target has the maximum possible defense value. How often do you WANT to hit him? Conversely, as the defender, how often do you expect to be missed?
[/ QUOTE ]
50/50.
However, I'm not convinced there should be such a thing as a "cap". I just think there should be diminishing returns required, so that it is difficult to continue to hit ever higher levels of tohit/defense. So the higher I want to push it, the more I have to sacrafice. (I think Granite Armor is one of the neater powers in the game because it manages to be so, so strong, yet balanced).
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The answer to this question is that I as the attacker expect under the current system to hit 95% of the time. As the defender I expect to be missed 5% of the time. The latter half being my experience in pvp zones playing as a /ninjitsu stalker.
[/ QUOTE ]
To clarify here: Does this mean, in a perfectly balanced system, you would expect Max To Hit to always completely negate Max Defense? That's how I read what you have written.
To everyone:
The availability of To Hit buffs is a seperate question. Assume for purposes of this exercise that you have access to buffs far beyond what you would need to reach a maximum value.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not. I do not think max To Hit should automatically trump max Defense. That's what yellows are for.
No one even uses yellows in PvP, lol...accept in zones to see stalkers. They aren't necessary, that should tell you something.
Players like bubblers and SR scrappers get TOASTED in anything larger than a pentad and other players aren't even using yellows.
If anything, defense heavy sets should have some form of unresistable defense per se maybe, to put them more evenly on par with the insane amount of To Hit buff capability...or just quite simply lower the cap of To Hit buffs...because with Tactics, Focused Accuracy (a BIG problem in and of itself, it should be a click not a toggle), Fortitude, Vengeance (when stacked forget about it), etc. I will chew through defense all night long.
Maybe have To Hit buffs reach a MUCH lower cap against certain powers or sets...I don't know, but it definitely is a big balance issue.