How can a single Night Widow take down a team?
By
Azerrath,
Posted on: 2006-05-16 10:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
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Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.
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That's essentially correct.
A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc
A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.
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Until they do, for people who get this bug (I don't but 3 of my SG-mates do on a regular basis), it's going to look like a bug and just what you described will happen. We worked it out on my team and we can usually figure out what is going on (through group chat communication), but it's very disconcerting to people who have seen the bug before. This bug needs to be squished.
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First time I got smoked by a Night Widow I thought, "Oh crap it's this bug again." I was actually glad when I found out that it was smoke grenade.
If it works the same as the /dev SG then I'm assuming it doesn't stack with itself? Because I've been smoked more than once when I only saw one Night Widow, of course maybe I just didn't see the other one. I can see how it seems like the mobs are "cheating" but I don't see any reason why player powers and mob powers should be identical.
I do think it presents an challenge, but not as much as actually finding other players that can grasp the concept of aggro management and alpha strikes. Personally I think adding new challenges into the old high-damage/chain-mez dynamic that mobs have is a good thing. Mobs with Tp-Foe, that would be interesting.
My main beef with their smoke grenade is that it lasts to dang long. Okay, so I get smoked and I pop a yellow, we clear the mob and the yellow wears off then I have to wait around for SG to wear off before we can move on to the next group, and I'm waiting way to long. If anything I'd like to the duration on Night Widow's SG shortened.
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
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Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.
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That's essentially correct.
A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc
A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.
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So with that being said, why should Smoke Grenade count as an attack? The debuff is practically non-existant and it's ability to stack with CD is hindered greatly due to the combination of not being able to slot it with range and it's "attack" trait which surpresses the toggle that's it's supposed to be stacking with.
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
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Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.
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That's essentially correct.
A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc
A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.
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So with that being said, why should Smoke Grenade count as an attack? The debuff is practically non-existant and it's ability to stack with CD is hindered greatly due to the combination of not being able to slot it with range and it's "attack" trait which surpresses the toggle that's it's supposed to be stacking with.
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I second this very same train of thought and question.
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The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.
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The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)
The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'
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So that would be technically that critter smoke grenade *is* more powerful, as we are forced to "lose track" of them by them becoming invisible.
Sorry, I have to call BS when I see it. If the critter SG would allow us to even know where they are so we could get close enough to use melee attacks, it would make things much more fair for people with no range.
Still here, even after all this time!
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A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc
A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.
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That just plain sucks.
There is no other word to describe this. It sucks. Why is an accuracy debuffing power even in the game with such tiny values?
Feh. Consider Flash Arrow blacklisted permanently. 
AND FIX MY GLORFING ZAPPY ARROW!
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Quote:
The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.
The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)
The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'
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Ok... so then a change neds to be made to the mob version of smoke grenade. Once a mob attacks a player, the entire spawn should be visible. That is, in effect, what happens for mobs. You'd liel to see it fixed - excellent... but until then we're playing on a vastly uneven field. No player power can blind enemies with the kind of effectiveness that nightwidow smoke grenade has. This is not just a minor inconvenience, it's downright overpowered.
Perhaps, like I stated earlier, just make smoke grenade a targetted AoE, so you can at least get out of the area to be able to see again...
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The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.
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The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)
The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'
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What I would like to see is something in the AI that detects a change in perception then does a calculation. Can I see my target? If yes then no change. If no then do a looking around emote (like nijitsu's danger sense, or Placate) Then go back to default standing around mode.
Of course if other characters are in range, that they can see, then they would attack. I dont see why a change in perception would be hard to detect. I detect it whenever it happens to me by the shiny new Icon at the top of the screen. The game aparently knows the power has been used.
Now if I do something like turn invisible I can see how that might be a little harder to check. I am not actually doing anything to the enemy. Maybe add some sort of heartbeat tic every few second. Can I see target? yes or no? I dont know how hard or intensive this would be. From what I can tell the mobs dont have any kind of 'heartbeat' AI.
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A 0.5 scale would be:
Defenders = 6.25%
Blasters = 3.5%
Masterminds = 3.75%, etc
A Defender with 3 SO's would be ~9.6% to hit debuff.
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That just plain sucks.
There is no other word to describe this. It sucks. Why is an accuracy debuffing power even in the game with such tiny values?
Feh. Consider Flash Arrow blacklisted permanently.
AND FIX MY GLORFING ZAPPY ARROW!
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Yay that I was right about the Greek being read by Patagonians.
Boo that the real meaning is so... icky.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Honestly what it is is Crap.
Sorry, quit playing my stalker when I figured out I couldn't hide after hitting someone even if I got out of LOS, Behind boxes and hidden under a rug PLUS using my powers.
Don't get me started on Ambushes.
For the few days I had Smoke Grenade on my AR/Devices, I would swear on a stack of Bibles and Korans and, I dunno, Necronomicons...anyway, I'd swear that not only did SG not debuff anything, but it drew aggro once they saw you. I teamed a lot during that time, mostly facing Trolls, and I can promise that every Troll in the spawn, once aggroed would turn and throw rocks at me and only me, even if I hadn't attacked at all. It was not perception, it happened, and over and over.
Mind you, this was on Test, and it was several issues ago...right after the original SG fix (which btw I never got to actually exploit, damnit). However, the bitter taste of that, combined with the nigh-useless debuff, has caused me to ignore SG ever since. There are so many other powers I can take which are more useful, why waste time with situational powers?
Ahem. My problem with Night Widows may seem a little petty, but it is mine: I dislike the idea of an enemy requiring certain inspirations or certain powers, in order to do anything against them. How many yellows am I supposed to carry in a large-team mission, and what's the target number of times that I'm required to leave the mission to go restock? Or, alternatively, if I should happen to wind up on a team without someone using Tactics...what member of the team should give up their spot so we can find that person? It all rubs me the wrong way, and smacks of [censored] other MMOs have pulled.
Academic and aesthetic senses aside, as long as my Singularity or henches or teammates can see them, then whatever.
<<which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.>>
Boy - Now THAT has gotta be a RINGING endorsment to explain what Over-Nerfing (and yes, that's YOU Dev's) does when a broken power get's "fixed."
Just once, can you try to not fix something in increments that are not recorded on the fraggin' Richter Scale? Sure, Blaster Boy, take a power with THAT description above. Why - that ought to become the new power description for players shouldn't it?
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Ahem. My problem with Night Widows may seem a little petty, but it is mine: I dislike the idea of an enemy requiring certain inspirations or certain powers, in order to do anything against them. How many yellows am I supposed to carry in a large-team mission, and what's the target number of times that I'm required to leave the mission to go restock? Or, alternatively, if I should happen to wind up on a team without someone using Tactics...what member of the team should give up their spot so we can find that person? It all rubs me the wrong way, and smacks of [censored] other MMOs have pulled.
Academic and aesthetic senses aside, as long as my Singularity or henches or teammates can see them, then whatever.
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When my corruptor takes on *ANY* enemy set who can hold, stun or mez, I *MUST* carry break frees with me or I can pretty much can kiss my [censored] goodbye.
These groups include rikti, the lost, tsoo, longbow, freakshow, devouring earth and others.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is pretty much everyone has to carry inspirations depending what enemies groups they face, if they are soloing.
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Ahem. My problem with Night Widows may seem a little petty, but it is mine: I dislike the idea of an enemy requiring certain inspirations or certain powers, in order to do anything against them.
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FWIW, I've defeated them w/o any inspirations before. I just got the drop on them and beat the snot out of them before they could blind me. 
Knockback, etc., helps a ton.
So it's not as if you must have perception powers. They just make them particularly easier.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
And......no response from the OP to any of this.
Funny.
50 Claws/Regen Scrap, 50 Energy/Energy Blaster, 50 SS/Invuln Tanker, 50 Robot/Traps MasterMind, 50 Fire/Kin Controller, 50 Ninja/Ninja Stalker, 50 Elec/Shield Brute, 50 Elec/Time Controller
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I'm gonna agree with UberGuy on this one. I think they're one of the few actual tactical challenges in the game. Most of the 'challenges' are just "you have to hit it more times" (AV vs. say a boss), and little else.
F
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Ditto. Nightwidows are tough the first time, but once you know what they do they are just meat. My robots like their meat cooked, My stalkers skewer it, my corruptors irradiate it or freeze it, and my dominators like to sculpt it into pretty statues.
I think they are neat villians. Every once in a while I miss one in the spawn and someone calls it out mid-fight. Then she dies. It is good.
-Teklord
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My Mastermind tried to carve one into an elephant statue once. He chipped and chipped away anything that didn't look like an elephant. Unfortunately, all I ended up with was a pile of dust.
Guess there wasn't an elephant in there 
I have an idea. It starts with 's' and ends with 'litting their throats.'"
-Belkar Bitterleaf, Order of the Stick
Order of the Stick
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The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'
[/ QUOTE ]Then how does Placate work? It enables a break with their lock-on right, or in any event "de-aggroes" them from the caster?
I don't know if it would be workable, but couldn't something similar be programmed; like a "placate aura", that effects NPCs targeting you just long enough to break the lock when stealth based powers kick in again? This would only be for PvE purposes, affecting only the AI, because the lock gets broken already for PvP purposes when invisibility-like (hide, stealth, invis, etc.) powers kick in.
As it stands, that's a rather severe imbalance going on, that we drop lock-on as soon as the NPC hits their power, but they can chase us to hades and back no matter how much we use to break it until they get bored of following.
It's stuff like this that embitters me with all the talk of "balancing" the game. The above example is for all intents and purposes a bug that the AI exploits to keep us targeted after we should have gone invisible to them again. I have the funny feeling that if it was a power on our part that enabled this effect for us it would be, regardless of difficulty, fixed within a patch or two at most.
I'm not trying to call shenanigans on you or anyone else _Castle_; I sincerely think you and the rest of the team are not "out to get us" or whatever, but until things from both sides of the fence start to get similar treatment, threads like these will happen.
Other examples include, but are not limited to:
Phase Shift activation time to compensate for the limited usage it now has (to make it actually workable "as intended" as an uh-oh power). If that's been fixed, my apologies. Everyone I've known that had it respeced out of it when the change hit, and hasn't looked back. I haven't met anyone with it since either...
CoT portal Behemoths that give no xp to keep them from being exploited, but can give you just as much debt as any other critter when they dogpile you..
If the system or AI needs some sort of nerf, that should be at least near as important as when we do. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't seem like that a lot of the time from our side of things. 
I'd say leave the Night Widows as they are, but we need to work at least as well with our versions of the power against the NPC's as they do with us, or against other players.
edited a sentence for clarity
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA.
Incidentally, this isn't the first time that _Castle_ has told us that Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is identical to that of Smoke Grenade or Smoke. That post, however, you can locate with SearchFu.
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Okay, I just looked at Goofy Parrots number there, and that's a, well, mistake. See, that's using the "old" incorrect style of Accuracy calculation.
Back in the day, we thought that ToHit buffs and debuffs were multiplicative. Hence, GP said that the ToHit debuff was between 10 and 20% (we'll take 15% for this case). Under the multiplicative (incorrect style), You would do this:
( 50 Base ToHit ) ( 1 - 0.15 ToHit Debuff ) ( 1 + 0 ToHit Buff)
50*0.85*1=42.5% Tohit after the Flash Arrow.
Now. Under the actually Accuracy calculation, Tohit buffs and debuffs are -additive- this is key here. Instead of multiplying them together like above it's like this. (Going to use _Castle_'s numbers of 6.25 ToHit debuff unslotted)
( 50 Base ToHit) - ( 6.25 ToHit Debuff) + ( 0 ToHit Buff)
50-6.25=43.75%
Now, as you can see, these values are VERY close to each other. So, GP's numbers, while they are correct, are using an incorrect formula for calculation. Where as _Castle_'s numbers are using the Scalar system (See: Power Data Standardization for more info), and is using the correct formula for accuracy calculation.
I hope this helps clear any confusion. 
Edit: PS. As _Castle_ said, with SO's Flash Arrow is a 9.6%ish ToHit debuff, in I7, against ALL foes, that will be a 19.2% damage mitigation.
( 50 - 9.6 ) = 40.4% Chance to hit.
40.4/50=80.8% of original chance to hit.
This is for Minions.
If the enemy is a boss, then it's.
( 50 ) * 1.3 = 65% Chance to hit (before Flash).
( 50 - 9.6 ) * 1.3 = 52.52% Chance to hit (after Flash).
52.52/65=80.8% of original chance to hit.
(Edit here. Boss Accuracy bonus is 30%, not 15%. They used to have a +15% ToHitbuff. It still comes out to that 19.2% damage mitigation, which is the great thing about the I7 changes)
Currently on Live (I6), Flash Arrow is exactly what has been said above. To tiny to matter, but once I7 comes out, it'll be quite a bit better (though not as good as other tohit debuffs).
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
<edited for common sense>
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Then how does Placate work? It enables a break with their lock-on right, or in any event "de-aggroes" them from the caster?
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the Placate power apparently does two things to its target, it gives the target 'Placate' status and it removes the caster from the target's rage list entirely. (thus they arn't aggrod on you at all and they can't see you).
the devs are balancing for difficulty, not for fairness. if the difficulty is properly in line then they arn't going to touch it. in an ideal world the powers would be more balanced, but in the end, difficulty is more important.
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This is so unfair that this mob does what it does. I dread Arachnos mission even more now, its not fair that she can single handedly cripple, and slaughter a whole team and not be an AV? I guess this is what would happen if they gave stalkers smoke grenade. I also believe the tohit debuff is too extreme most likely she is using that original smoke grenade that was pre-nerfed. If she gets Assasin's Strike I will quit the game. 
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You so funny, haha!
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
My character couldn't even see her when I was on a team that ran across one. Seriously. She was slaughtering us all and all I could do was stand there and wonder [censored] was going on.
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Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.
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Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA.
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Ah. First, he has the unslotted value listed as 8%, not 15%. Second, he only used about 500 attacks on a minion, with a target accuracy near 40%, which isn't sufficient to measure with any great accuracy. He got a value of around 8%, which with 500 attacks is a little better than 95% confident that the value is between 3% and 13% (which puts the expected value of 6.25% decently in the middle). For him to lock it down to actually being between 7% and 9% he'd need to test for 9,000 to 10,000 attacks.
If you didn't like the simple arithmetic from earlier, this is probably making your brain melt further, so I'll have to ask you to just take it on faith until you can take a college statistics course and get confidence levels explained to you.
Well I'm going to call shenanigans on _Castle_! He said the scale is 0.5. He listed the multipliers and final ToHit debuff for various ATs. But he never listed the same for mobs! Come on, is everyone else here blinded by the smoke??? He's only given us half the answer. Without the mob multiplier, the 0.5 scale number is as useless as the total Enhancement values that now show up when slotting powers. They both tell you nothing.
If that Night Widow has a 1.0 multiplier, then that scale 0.5 debuff is actually a 50% ToHit debuff, which is MAJOR. The same issue may be why PP MoG is so much more effective than player MoG. I don't recall seeing anything anywhere on mob multipliers. Time for a PM I think.
P.S. If I knew the post-nerf value of Smoke Grenade, I wouldn't have recently respec'd into it with my Fire/Dev. As _Castle_ just said, the -Perception is completely negated once you agro the mobs, because they will ALWAYS be able to see you. Sure you could use it to sneak by mobs, but just running by fast with Cloaking Device is a whole lot faster, safer, and easier. The only thing it has going for it is the ToHit debuff, but that's so small it can barely be measured. Oh, one other thing... Toe bombers without Super Speed can use it on small spawns, assuming they hit every mob and wait for Stealth Suppression to wear off. I'm sure there are at least a couple toe bombers without Super Speed somewhere.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia.
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
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Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.
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I think my brain just melted.
*goes back to the Lumiverse to get a pail to put the brain goo in and try to figure out how to funnel it back into the ear*
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Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.
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Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.
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Goofy_Parrot's guide to TA.
Incidentally, this isn't the first time that _Castle_ has told us that Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is identical to that of Smoke Grenade or Smoke. That post, however, you can locate with SearchFu.