How can a single Night Widow take down a team?
By
Azerrath,
Posted on: 2006-05-16 10:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!" 
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Well, yeah! 
I want the damn door to come to me!
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I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.
Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. Don't let browser resize image.
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(Kills the claw meister and runs away with his monitor), my web design work would go so much better with that moniter 
Another strategy with GW is attacks that do not require a target to hit, FSC, ISC, Whirling Hands, Rain of Mew, Force Bubble, etc.... If you slot even 1 acc you can hit more often than not. For my brute that is a common strategy I use even for Longbow Spec Ops, either whirly hands where they are, or wait for them to attack, get their stealth suppressed so I can target them, and stun the hell out of them, or best tactic of them all run up to Spec Op.....FE+BU+Energy Transfer = You die now!
I have to agree with the others in saying I love the Night Widows more than most anything in the game. It is one enemy the devs got right, as it does something other than ye olde basic attack. It functions like every KoA should, though I do say I would love to see them get either caltrops or trip mines as well. It would be nice running up at one and landing into a faceful of C4 for a nice surprise. 
I've only faced a Night Widow once, so far. It was during a Bloody Bay mission, as either a Dark Defender or a MA/Inv Scrapper (I don't have any villains above 10, yet). Wow, that was a tough fight...
I think they're fine the way they are. Just because the only way I managed to beat the one was by summoning a Shivan (massive Radiation defense debuff, ftw...) doesn't mean I'll quit in frustration.
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This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!"
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Well, yeah! I want the damn door to come to me!
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I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.
Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. Don't let browser resize image.
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Dude, you use the exact same resolution I do.
Granted, my monitor is about six inches smaller, but yeah.
It's not THAT bad.
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Paragon Protector MOG vs. player MOG. 'Nuff said.
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Every time a PP MoG's, my BS/Regen dies a little bit inside. 
Night Widows? The first time I ran into one was a nasty surprise, to be sure. Picked up some quick debt too. They're still a pain, but not exactly difficult to prepare for. Fighting Lost at low levels? Bring Breakfrees. Fighting Arachnos at high levels? Bring Insights. Not that big of a deal, IMO.
And if you run out of yellows, do what I do. Pop Aim + Inferno and hope for the best.
-Dr. Rob
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I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.
Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. Don't let browser resize image.
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Huh.. what? Sorry, got distracted by the villianess in that picture
Man... Your video has to be AWESOME!! If I could afford that, I would be a happy camper. I bet it makes this game look beyound beuityful. (Man, I'm a lousy speller )
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Worse, sometimes on pick up groups you'll have people freaking out "OMG! Invisible mobs are attacking me! My client is bugged! (Character logging out in 30...29...(dead)...28)
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Usually just zoning out of the mission and back in will fix that bug for me.
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Just yesterday, my brother a friend and I were running a mission against the snakes in Mercy. We logged into the mission, everyone was there. after the first run in with one group that quickly grew to two and wiped the team, we relogged into the mission. None of us realized that my brother had that graphical bug. the team window showed him as "on mission map" but was blacked out like he was logging in. However, he was in the mission. We started in on finishing up the two group battle. When I noticed a couple of snakes just running around in circle. I couldn't see who they were following (my brother). It was funny and irritating at the same time. His health was blinky red and he couldn't stop to type anything. As long as he kept moving, they would chase him, but not get to attack.
He exited and re-entered the mission and that fixed the problem of us not being able to see him.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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The problem is, the Night Widow's smoke grenade is much more powerful than the player version.
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The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)
The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'
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I'm gonna agree with UberGuy on this one. I think they're one of the few actual tactical challenges in the game. Most of the 'challenges' are just "you have to hit it more times" (AV vs. say a boss), and little else.
F
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Ditto. Nightwidows are tough the first time, but once you know what they do they are just meat. My robots like their meat cooked, My stalkers skewer it, my corruptors irradiate it or freeze it, and my dominators like to sculpt it into pretty statues.
I think they are neat villians. Every once in a while I miss one in the spawn and someone calls it out mid-fight. Then she dies. It is good.
-Teklord
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That's a good point. I suspect it's tied to the Stalker-related perception code (it would be sort of uncool to be able to see them, since you could then use that to land location AoEs if you have them). But some sort of visual indicator would be a real improvement.
Hell, if they wanted to be really mean they could make you lose sight/targeting on your teammates; you're supposed to be blind, after all. You'd definitely notice that!
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I love Night Widows. I think they're fun and add something new to the game. However I do agree that an indicator would be needed. In fact, not so much of a new indicator, as the fals one removed. I'm talking about the fact that not only is your perception reduced, but also your ability to hear. When all the mobs vanish, so does the sound of the battle. That is the reason why some people think the battle is over.
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This sounds like, "my mansion's too big to walk all the way to answer the front door!"
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Well, yeah! I want the damn door to come to me!
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I feel your pain, UberGuy. Running 1920X1200 on a 24" wide means that I have to actually turn my head to see from one corner to the other.
Hmm.. perhaps I shouldn't sit so closely.
With all the menus still at 100%.
Looks like
this. Don't let browser resize image.
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I feel your pain. I have the same monitor 
I ended up moving the healthbar to the center top. and the target right under it. With some room for buff icons. I would never be able to tell who I had targeted before. Too much to keep looking up and down. Glad I didn't get anything bigger then 24in. Can you imagine getting that 30in? yikes.
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The issue you are describing of critters being aware of you even after you blind them is the same problem Stalkers have with Hide -- once you have Aggroed a critter, it always knows where you are, despite Stealth or Perception changes. It's how our AI has to work, currently. It is something I'd like to see changed, but it is 'difficult.'
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PleasepleasePLEASE tell me this is being worked on...
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The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)
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If Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is 0.5, my left nipple is a stalk of celery.
And there's no celery attached to my body.
Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff was tested and verified at 15% by Goofy_Parrot. Recheck your numbers or get to fixing Flash Arrow. *cracks whip*
And fix my ZAPPY ARROW, darnit! It's still glorfing! 
Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia.
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Defenders have the best debuff AT modifer. So ... Dancing Hawk should see better than 0.5 on Flash Arrow. hmm.
-Teklord
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This is so unfair that this mob does what it does. I dread Arachnos mission even more now, its not fair that she can single handedly cripple, and slaughter a whole team and not be an AV? I guess this is what would happen if they gave stalkers smoke grenade. I also believe the tohit debuff is too extreme most likely she is using that original smoke grenade that was pre-nerfed. If she gets Assasin's Strike I will quit the game.
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I'm going to pull an about-face on my usual post style here.
Night Widows are cool. Leave them alone.
What was that? People falling out of their chairs? Did UberGuy just defend a hard boss that gets teams killed?
I did.
Why? Because Nightwidows are one of the very, very few foes in CoH/V that do not turn the tide through massive damage, stupidly high defenses (though, actually, those are kinda stupidly high), or mass/chain mezzing.
They just debuff you in a really effective way. They make you blind (and also reduce your toHit). They are one of the few examples we have of a Defender-style boss/LT that's actually scary.
Solo, they are no problem for me. On teams where anyone has tactics, they are no problem. In fact I've been on teams where we faced as many as six LT versions per spawn (Arbiter Leery's "Tears of the Spirit" Arc). We did fine.
They have a gimmik. It's easy to find the counter to the gimmik, either as a teammate with Tactics or a yellow inspiration.
I would like them left alone and other more "smash you now!" and "mez you now!" bosses made more like them.
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Q-F-T! >_<
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The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)
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And the Blasters /Devices smoke generade? Whenever I hit a group of MOBs for that, they just kindly turn around and remind me this is a non-smoking section... oh, and then they kick my butt.
Night Widows are stupidly hard though. And not the nice kind of stupidly hard like Paragon Protectors, they're just plain out too hard (considering they reward the same as the other possible bosses in the same group). They're one of the few MOBs that I'll eat an entire tray of inspirations and still lose.
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Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia.
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.
Oh, and on topic, I throw my lot in with the pro-Night Widow crowd. They're a lot more fun to fight than the typical stuff we get. At least they do something more interesting and challenging than resist status effects or damage.
I don't think 0.5 translates to 50% in this case. (that's multiplicative) To-hit debuffs are subtracted from to-hit stat. so 15% means that base to-hit is probably 4, meaning 4 - 0.5 = 3.5 would be the resulting to-hit, leaving base 12.5% for the value of the debuff, and defenders get 15% due to their higher AT debuff multiplier.
Or something like that.
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Bear in mind that Castle's probably speaking in base numbers, before any AT modifiers are applied. Which means those numbers are essentially in Greek when we're all from Patagonia.
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
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Actually, about 90% lower, assuming you're talking about the base. The Defender multiplier (the highest) is 0.125. The Controller/Corrupter multiplier is 0.100. A scale of 0.5 means that Controllers and Corrupters should be seeing a 0.5*0.100=0.05 final base debuff (5%), and Defenders should be seeing a 0.5*0.125=0.0625 (6.25%) final base debuff. The blaster multiplier is only 0.070, so Smoke Grenade from /Devices is only providing a 0.5*0.070=0.035 (3.5%) final base debuff, which is the reason why every time that I've read about it being tested it has never shown up above the statistical noise even in large samples. It's literally so small it needs special tools and large amounts of time just to detect.
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Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.
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Could you link to where the data for this test is? That's really interesting, because it's showing Flash Arrow as being three times more powerful as Smoke.
Are you kidding me? Smoke Grenade from devices is only 3.5%? Wow, I knew it was worthless from actual experience using it, but damn, to see it quantified....
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Night Widows are stupidly hard though. And not the nice kind of stupidly hard like Paragon Protectors, they're just plain out too hard (considering they reward the same as the other possible bosses in the same group). They're one of the few MOBs that I'll eat an entire tray of inspirations and still lose.
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Sorry, my experience just doesn't match that. I'd much rather face a Night Widow than a "Tanker" Longbow Warden, who can one-shot every CoV AT except a Brute.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I didn't read the entire thread, but I'd like to bring up two points:
1) Clicking a yellow inspiration will allow you to see again, and boost your accuracy for the duration of the inspiration, basically negating most of the effects of the smoke bomb.
2) The night widow is no where near as nasty as some of the longbow wardens.
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If there were AT modifiers at work on that 0.5 (50%), then a defender, the buff/debuff AT, would have a higher value, not lower. Certainly not 70% lower.
Wrong is wrong, and _Castle_ is wrong. Flash Arrow is most definitely not, unless there was a stealth buff in a recent patch or he's quoting I7 numbers that weren't mentioned in the patch notes, debuffing accuracy by 50%. As I stated, it was tested and very solidly proven to be 15%.
Oh, and on topic, I throw my lot in with the pro-Night Widow crowd. They're a lot more fun to fight than the typical stuff we get. At least they do something more interesting and challenging than resist status effects or damage.
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I'm going to agree with my fellow Trick Arrow fan here. Flash Arrow, two-slotted with debuff SOs, doesn't have a 0.5 accuracy modifier on it on live. I am intimately aware of this.
And I also like Night Widows, where "like" is shorthand for "find incredibly challenging in a refreshing way."
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Heh. I run.. 12x10 (I don't remember the exact numbers) and sit 4ish feet away. (don't ask.) I have to squint, some days..
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.