Cuppa Meets with Statesman

Statesman and I discussed community concerns in a conference call today and I wanted to share a few things with you that came up during the call. This is going to be rather long - just a friendly warning.

Background Info (AKA what is Cuppas relationship with the Dev Team?)

For those of you who have recently joined the CoH family or are just unclear about it, I wanted to explain exactly what my role is with the CoH team.

My job as a Community Coordinator is multi-faceted, but the main part of my job is to communicate community concerns to the rest of the CoH Team. I produce several status reports and participate in conference calls with the team in California twice every week.

I am also in constant communication with the rest of the team via email, phone calls, and in-person meetings. This includes the entire team, from the GMs, to CS, billing, Tech Support, OCR, the Dev team, the producers, marketing, PR, QA, network ops, and publishing coordinators.

I am "the voice of the community" as it were, not just a moderator. It is a powerful voice and it is a responsibility I do not take lightly.

I am also the conduit of information from the CoH team to you via the message boards. Yes, the devs do post here quite a bit, but I also post info from the other parts of the team (such as network operations) who do not post here. I am lucky as a community coordinator (CC) to have such a vocal dev team, many games do not and must rely on the CC for all communication. I am also lucky that the devs read the boards voraciously, many dev teams do not.

The Devs and Cuppa Discuss the boards -

After some recent comments the devs and I want to address some player concerns and clarify a few things.

Recent Regen Test Results

We have read quite a few comments that are concerned that the recent test results posted were the only tests done on regen. This is NOT the case. This was just a small set of data from a much larger range of tests. Statesman just wanted to post a small example of the results.

The comments the community has made have been read and were considered before Issue 4 went live. It was decided that the dev team felt the changes were needed and the issue went out with them.

No recent response to an issue -

Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.

The Devs Hate us!

No they don't. Despite all the comments by players to the contrary, the devs do not have it out for any AT/power set/power. We have a responsibility to the individual player to make their game experience fun, but we also have a responsibility to the whole community to make their game experience fun too.

This also extends to Issue content - we try to add a little something for everyone each issue. Every player has things they consider their priority for new content. Some love costumes, some like new art, some new story. We try to even it out to give everyone something. There is only so much time in the day - but we work as hard as we can to make the game better.

Official Threads, Posting, and You

Finally - The devs wanted me to state again why we have official threads and what they are looking for in posts.

Change is stressful. We understand that. However, certain comments (and these are mild examples)-

"The Devs are retards. These changes are crap."

"Nerf <insert AT here> instead"

Are just unconstructive and honestly, put people on the defensive. If you want to know what types of posts make the most impact take a look at this recent post -

"I jumped into the arena on test last night to check out the latest changes. While playing a couple matches, I really thought gameplay moved very slow. Not lag, but the interaction with players. With no super speed, suppression, etc. I certainly didn't die as much, but I wasn't damaging, being damaged, or encountering other players either.

I was playing a grav/storm, which has looong animation times for anything so that probably comes into play. But half way through the second match I just got bored with it, and found it niether frustrating or exciting - just, meh.

I'm really not sure what happened or if this is just my AT, but it would be a reason why I probably won't visit the arena half as much as I thought I would. Maybe it was the frustrating component and the danger of the suped-up PvP that kept me coming back night after night."

Not a glowing report - but simple, honest, tested feedback. We love seeing some of the more complex testing posts that some of you do - those are awesome, but I don't want the community to feel like it takes that level of post to be constructive or that you will not be listened to if you do not post that way.

Official Threads are not places we herd you to to ignore you - They are created so that all of the player comments on an issue can be easily read and digested by the devs. It keeps people from feeling like they need to post the same thing in 17 threads to make sure they are heard. The devs and I would encourage everyone to post constructive feedback in the official threads. They are the best way to get your concerns read.

I have seen comments that state that if the devs are going to be devs then they should grow a think skin and learn to take the insults. We disagree. We care an awful lot about this game. We pour our hearts, minds, and energy into making this game. Many of us have spent years of our lives working as hard as we can and trying our best to make the best game possible. We want players to have fun. We stealth team with lowbies to hear the reactions to things like super jump for the first time. To experience the joy of a great pick up team take down an AV.

Hurtful insults and disrespectful comments affect us. We are human. To have people disrespect you and insult you and something you have worked so hard on in front of the whole internet is disheartening and demoralizing at the very least.

The bottom line is we respect you and your comments, we do listen, and we are glad you play and thank you for being heroes. We ask for your respect in return.

Finally, thanks to all the heroes who test, provide feedback, and go above and beyond the average player to help us make the game. Thanks to the community who makes us laugh when things are rough and for all the kind words you have sent our way in the past year. We appreciate it!

Thank you. My only concern is what is the diffentiation between the roles of Scrappers and Tanker, and Scrappers and Blaster. It's the one thing I never seem to get a clear answer to. Could we get an AT Roles Official thread? Maybe this is the wrong place to post this, but I don't know where else to put it.

And this "feedback" is great. Thank you Cuppa and Devs. It's always really nice to know that we're heard and that our opinions matter.

Thank you very much, Cuppa! This is greatly appreciated...

I heart t3h cuppa!

Best. Thread. EVER.

It kinda makes me feel a little sad that such a reassurance is needed in the first place.

*All of the ninjas joing to together to form the BIGGEST PAIR OF HANDS EVER and they clap really loud and hard all freaking night for the Best. Dev/GM team. EVAR.*

[ QUOTE ]

Official Threads are not places we herd you to to ignore you - They are created so that all of the player comments on an issue can be easily read and digested by the devs.

[/ QUOTE ]

CuppaJo,

When these threads grow to be 50 or 100 pages long they are not easily read by the players. Posters frequently qualify their comments with remarks like, "I don't know if this point has been made yet, but...". As the massive number of posts stack up without developer response posters become anxious and begin to doubt if they're being heard. Players then create new threads to distinguish their thoughts from the 'herd'.

Like I said, I'm not sure what the best solution is but massive threads aren't helpful to the players, even if they are helpful to the devs.

Thanks for being our voice though, I know you've helped me a few times.

Then how in the world did you think HO's were a good idea in PVP.

You guys are great and all that.. but darn why didnt you see that coming?

[ QUOTE ]
Then how in the world did you think HO's were a good idea in PVP.

You guys are great and all that.. but darn why didnt you see that coming?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, they did and they told us about it before I4 even made it to the Test Server. The Arena is optional and non-rewarding with no risk. Think of it a huge test for PvP before CoV comes out. I'm sure something will be done about Hami-Os before CoV make it out - but I'm also sure that they want more data from a larger audience than the small number of people who actually used the Test Server.

Some of the players with the most passionate responses are also the ones who care the most about the game.

Being respectful to anyone is important, Devs included. I must say though, that over the past year it has seemed (I say 'seemed' not 'is') that the same level of respect is not always returned. And I don't mean that Devs are directly rude, but that they sometimes take what appears to be a condescending approach of You don't see the big picture, so you do not realize that what you are doing is not actually fun.

This ignores that some people spend almost as much time playing the game as a Dev spends working on it. It ignores that many players often are more current and aware of power changes(as a whole) than the Dev team sometimes appears to be. And it ignores the (I think) obvious problem of actually telling someone else that you know better than they do whether or not they are having fun.

There has also been much disillusionment over the Test server.

Folks spend hours and hours testing changes, give extensive feedback, and find widespread support of their findings, and then the changes go through to live as is. (Only to have the Devs find on Live the same issues that were reported by players on Test.)

There is much that goes into peoples behavior, and I think that the fluctuations in respect go both ways. It is just less subtle from the players side.

If we cared less about the game being great, we would just quit, not criticize.

I would like to end with a thank you to you Cuppa for still being an advocate for the community, even though we are so contentious. And one to the Dev team for making this game, which I have enjoyed greatly this past year+. You are obviouosly a talented team.

Now about SS&SJ...

-Gallant

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the players with the most passionate responses are also the ones who care the most about the game.

Being respectful to anyone is important, Devs included. I must say though, that over the past year it has seemed (I say 'seemed' not 'is') that the same level of respect is not always returned. And I don't mean that Devs are directly rude, but that they sometimes take what appears to be a condescending approach of You don't see the big picture, so you do not realize that what you are doing is not actually fun.

This ignores that some people spend almost as much time playing the game as a Dev spends working on it. It ignores that many players often are more current and aware of power changes(as a whole) than the Dev team sometimes appears to be. And it ignores the (I think) obvious problem of actually telling someone else that you know better than they do whether or not they are having fun.

There has also been much disillusionment over the Test server.

Folks spend hours and hours testing changes, give extensive feedback, and find widespread support of their findings, and then the changes go through to live as is. (Only to have the Devs find on Live the same issues that were reported by players on Test.)

There is much that goes into peoples behavior, and I think that the fluctuations in respect go both ways. It is just less subtle from the players side.

If we cared less about the game being great, we would just quit, not criticize.

I would like to end with a thank you to you Cuppa for still being an advocate for the community, even though we are so contentious. And one to the Dev team for making this game, which I have enjoyed greatly this past year+. You are obviouosly a talented team.

Now about SS&SJ...

-Gallant

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post

/em Second That!

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. My only concern is what is the diffentiation between the roles of Scrappers and Tanker, and Scrappers and Blaster. It's the one thing I never seem to get a clear answer to. Could we get an AT Roles Official thread? Maybe this is the wrong place to post this, but I don't know where else to put it.

And this "feedback" is great. Thank you Cuppa and Devs. It's always really nice to know that we're heard and that our opinions matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

One more thing, Cuppa.

We need to have a page on the CoH website that accurately reflects not only the current base values for all powers as well a detailed breakdown of how slotting impacts our character growth, but proposed modifications (IE %'s, etc.) to said values.

Right now, I can go to the Game Features list on the Coh.com website and what is reflected is not only erroneous, but seriously out of date...if not, useless.

We have no other means to make valid player choices either based on concept or real-numbers effectiveness (IE min-maxing...)

And while we can download a PDF of the manual, it too suffers from out-of-date syndrome...

We all appreciate the work you do for this community, Cuppa.

I'm sorry, but silence is not an acceptable response when people have lots of questions and concerns. And frankly, when there are lots of questions and concerns, the community has a pretty good track record of spotting what won't work in the live game. Case in point, Uber bosses. Case in point, SS/SJ getting a -50% Acc nerf.

And as for the regen...Geko, Positron, and Statesman all gave the reason for the IH/Int nerf that we were so much better than other scrappers and other heroes. Our testing said that the justification plainly and simply wasn't true, we weren't much better than other scrappers, and other character types could do the things that supposedly was so overpowered, and that not all builds. Finally, the test results that Statesman posted, even with its faults, only showed us about even with SR and below Inv. If the devs found another reason than the one stated by Geko, Positron, and Statesman, we deserved to hear it.

Before this thread gets too long with much deserved praise for Cuppa, I have a question. It is suggested that the best place for the devs to see our concerns is in an official thread. What is our proper course of action if there is no official thread on the issue.

For example, as mentioned a couple of posts ago, the information available on powers effectiveness, caps on resistances, caps on slotting effectiveness are all difficult to find for the casual gamer. Many of us feel very strongly about this issue. I haven't found an official thread on the issue and would like there to be one. What should I do?

Cuppa,

Thanks for the post! One of the best. Everyone needs to understand that if the devs didn't care, we would never ever see a response like this. Ever.

Thanks to you, States, and the devs for your continued efforts to make this the best experience possible.

One thing I've learned with my three year old is to not get upset when he flies off the handle, especially when I do something that I know is going to cause frustration, misunderstanding and a feeling of injustice.

I had to develop some thicker skin. If he gets into some junk food he's not supposed to have, I take it away - guess what? He's going to feel robbed, no matter how justified I am in taking it away.

Same thing with adults. You take things from them, strip something away that they care about, but you fail to justify your decision, you're going to generate a response of anger and frustration.

I hope this doesn't offend your sensibilities, poor devs, but DUH. You make people fall in love with their characters - that attachment is a great acheivement of your's. You screw with those characters, and you're going to get a response. It might even be loud abd obnoxious like my three year old's.

So long as you "balance" a set and give 6 contradictory justifications for it, people are going to call you on it. If you ever had a good enough reason to "balance" regen, you never communicated it or provided us with a good reason we could hang our hats on.

So so sorry to have made you all cry or whatever, but you got the response you could expect when you took those actions.

Your choices: make *reasonable* decisions or get thicker skin.

I don't have any major problems with the way things have worked to date, I just wanted to point out one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I've learned with my three year old is to not get upset when he flies off the handle, especially when I do something that I know is going to cause frustration, misunderstanding and a feeling of injustice.

I had to develop some thicker skin. If he gets into some junk food he's not supposed to have, I take it away - guess what? He's going to feel robbed, no matter how justified I am in taking it away.

Same thing with adults. You take things from them, strip something away that they care about, but you fail to justify your decision, you're going to generate a response of anger and frustration.

I hope this doesn't offend your sensibilities, poor devs, but DUH. You make people fall in love with their characters - that attachment is a great acheivement of your's. You screw with those characters, and you're going to get a response. It might even be loud abd obnoxious like my three year old's.

So long as you "balance" a set and give 6 contradictory justifications for it, people are going to call you on it. If you ever had a good enough reason to "balance" regen, you never communicated it or provided us with a good reason we could hang our hats on.

So so sorry to have made you all cry or whatever, but you got the response you could expect when you took those actions.

Your choices: make *reasonable* decisions or get thicker skin.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a flaw in your reasoning. 3 year olds don't post on the forums. Adults, however, do. And it's not an unfair request for people to *act* like adults instead of throwing temper tantrums like 3 year olds.

Thanks for the post Cuppa.

I think the anger that builds up on the boards sometimes (usually when a big change is put into the game) is a result of-

1. Pro and Anti groups: Those who dont support it, no matter how well you state your case, are usually flamed until all thats left is a skeleton. People dont seem to understand that not liking something does not make you a troll. Often times this kind of problem leads to lots of yelling to the point where all hopes of any sort of progress in trying to help the game is lost. Devs meanwhile look at this war and probably sigh.

2. We dont know whats going through your heads and therefore dont really understand all the time what the logic the Devs find in nerfing something. Of course for Exhibit A I show you SS/SJ. Yes youve stated your reasons for the change...but from a players point of view, in some cases this makes no sense. Ive lived by the philosophy "if its not broken, dont fix it", not "if its not broken, break it and then eventually break everything else to even it out." I think that maybe the Devs should push a little harder to instate a change through the players point of view.

I think that if both of these issues were addressed, we'd be in good shape Cup.

Cheers

[ QUOTE ]
...
I hope this doesn't offend your sensibilities, poor devs, but DUH. You make people fall in love with their characters - that attachment is a great acheivement of your's. You screw with those characters, and you're going to get a response. It might even be loud abd obnoxious like my three year old's.
...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a backhanded compliment for you. I guess he's saying that the reason so many people whine is that you've done such a great job creating such a great game that people really do care about it. I get frustrated with the answer, 'It's just a game.' If that were true I'd just move on to another one instead of trying to be heard over the crowd in threads like these.

Anyway, regardless of decisions I've agreed or disagreed with, regardless of how many posts I've put in to voice those views, you guys are still the best team as far as caring for your players, hands down.

Thanks.






And great sig there, Cuppa.

Mean people suck.

Keep up the great work, Cuppa.

[ QUOTE ]
2. We dont know whats going through your heads and therefore dont really understand all the time what the logic the Devs find in nerfing something. Of course for Exhibit A I show you SS/SJ. Yes youve stated your reasons for the change...but from a players point of view, in some cases this makes no sense. Ive lived by the philosophy "if its not broken, dont fix it", not "if its not broken, break it and then eventually break everything else to even it out." I think that maybe the Devs should push a little harder to instate a change through the players point of view.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is, of course, always going to be a problem. The players mostly see how things effect *them*. The Dev's, however, have to take into account how things effect *everyone*. Thus this brings the two groups into conflict.

[ QUOTE ]
There's a flaw in your reasoning. 3 year olds don't post on the forums. Adults, however, do. And it's not an unfair request for people to *act* like adults instead of throwing temper tantrums like 3 year olds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Some people are more docile than others. On the other hand, some people grow up and become revolutionaries, protestors, and radicals. Those people were taught (rightly) to question authority. And those people will speak loudly and tersely when it's justified. And the docile ones will think the loud ones are being immature.

And the authority under question can respond to protest in a number of ways. How Cryptic responds to the community, even when the community is rioting, is up to them. But don't cause the riot and then act all offended that you got one.

This might be completely wrong, but I'm guessing Geko takes things said by the player base VERY hard. A year ago, Geko was all over the place. Chatting, posting about the game, telling people ACC wasn't nerfed... but lately, he's down to posting during what seems like "Panic Prevention" post. Geko was never afraid to get into a squabbling match with Geko either =) While I never fought with 'em, I've read plenty of his back and forth =) All that said, let Geko know he has at least one fan in me.

And you should have been around on the way way WAY back boards (before beta). When Statesman made a post about having classes instead of just choosing powers, I lost it. I was playing Champions twice a week at that time and I slammed him hard for "not sticking with his dream for the game". Then he made the comment that they were going for an 'E' rating and would make changes to get it. Wow did that tick me off. I understand he wanted to make it a game you can play with your kids, but I was SO angry because I thought it would turn into a "kids game". Now THOSE were some hard times. I still don't like the class system as much as an open ended system, but I do see it from his side as well. Mr. Emmert has since then impressed me time and time again. He has an excellent game (longest I've played any MMO) that he continues to try to make better. I respect that a lot.

And finally, Our Mrs. Cuppa. I don't think we've had any violent run-ins (minus when I got the "You hacked our game E-Mail" =) and I've seen you bite your tongue over and over. You are a wonderful Community Rep. With a heart of gold and patience as long as the Appalachian mountain range, you've become as valuable as any Dev to City of Heroes.

You got to share stuff, so I thought I'd do the same =) CoH isn't perfect, but with the wonderful people that is working on it, it's always getting better. Stay safe all!