I've been, while not *the* most vocal poster on this topic, at least a fairly frequent poster. I'd like to make a couple more comments, if I may...
[ QUOTE ]
Recent Regen Test Results
We have read quite a few comments that are concerned that the recent test results posted were the only tests done on regen. This is NOT the case. This was just a small set of data from a much larger range of tests. Statesman just wanted to post a small example of the results.
The comments the community has made have been read and were considered before Issue 4 went live. It was decided that the dev team felt the changes were needed and the issue went out with them.
No recent response to an issue -
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
[/ QUOTE ]
I kind of had the feeling that the latter was what was going on. Speaking specifically to the "Internal Scrapper test results" thread, however - without *any* feedback, we had no way of knowing which of the two ("we're reconsidering" vs. "we're happy as-is") was actually the case. This ended up creating a large quantity of unhappy players, unsure *what* was happening, or if we were even being heard - and also attracted a fair number of "nerf-herders", saying not much more than "see? You deserved it!!". Which, of course, ended up creating a much more hostile environment around the changes.
To be honest, though, those test results are *so* far wide of my experiences that I'd still be interested in seeing more results - if only to have it shown to me that yes, we (Regen) really *were* that overpowered. I realize you guys aren't obligated to show us *anything* - but showing us only a single set of possibly biased tests, without any baseline (i.e. pre-I4 values) to compare them to, simply ended up adding more fuel to the fire.
I guess the upshot of this post is simply - more communication is a *good* thing. If a decision has been made, and we're wasting our time debating it - *tell us*! And if you do begin to justify your decisions (which I acknowledge you're not required to do at all), *please* be prepared to continue doing so if we ask questions. 
As always, thank you for your time, and this wonderful game,
Kam
We had one post from Geko detailing the exact math of the regen nerf and giving the point break reason why regen was nerfed in the first place.
We had Statesman post a bugged test (only one of many tests done to decide if regen was overpowered) and then apologize within hours for the broken test results. He gave you respect by truly saying he was sorry for what happened and that testing would be done in a corrected environment. When the new tests came out, you simply chose not to believe them, or to pick them apart so that any little thing could mean they were broken again.
Just because the devs didn't say what you want to hear doesn't mean they didn't show you respect. And with the level of insults, conspiracy theories, and outright lies the vocal minority has provided in the last few weeks, it's you that needs to earn respect at this time.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I don't know if anyones suggested this yet...but maybe we should nerf the Devs?
I think alot of the frustrations that have come out of Regen is that you have consistantly Nerfed the power set each and every Update. Add to that you failed to disclose the reduction in healing power of Integration until we, the forum posters, noticed it. Then you posted skewed results as evidence of the power of all Scrappers only to have to retract your statements. All of this combined sends a message to us and that message is one of distrust. I can only give a parallel of how it feels to be a player in this situation:
Think of it as landing your dream job. Your company is about to move to a bigger, more lavish building. When you get there your boss pulls you aside and tells you you're going to have to take a pay cut. Several months later the company expands and while it's expanding your boss pulls you aside and tells you you're going to have to take yet another pay cut. After the first few weeks you notice that your pay checks aren't adding up and your boss tells you he had to decrease your pay but forgot to mention it. Finally, as your company plans to yet again move to a larger facility your boss pulls you aside and tells you you'll be taking a pay cut.
Now it's one year later and you are thinking to yourself, "If we move again am I going to take another pay cut? If they don't cut my pay up front will they cut my pay without telling me again?"
Ask yourselves this, is this company inspiring loyalty or would you gladly take a job elsewhere in the hopes of a little financial security even if it means leaving your so called dream job? This is what it is like to play Regen.
Okay, I'll bite: how did they nerf regen in issue 2.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Thanks Cuppa. You guys are the best.
I'm pretty pleased with Issue 4 so far. You should know though that I have yet to try the Arena. It's not what brought me here and I imagine I will check it out at some point in the future. All that aside, I think ya'll are doing great. Please keep up the great work.
Now, I do want to take a minute to ask for some clarification on a couple of minor items :
1) There seems to have been an interesting side effect with regard to the changes to Taunt and the Mob AI. Specifically with respect to the power : Burn. Burn has a Fear Effect and now, for some reason due to the changes, Taunt and even Blazing Aura are now unable to counter the effect of Burn's Fear.
If this was intended. So be it. If not, perhaps the Devs could take a look to see if this power combonition is operating as intended? I'd appreciate it. Perhaps just lowering the Magnitude of the Fear effect of Burn would be all that's needed to compensate? Just a thought.
2) Free Respecs vs. Earned Respecs. It has been noted by some that when you visit Jack Wolfe to use your Earned Respec that you will actually lose your Freebie first. As I understood it, you could only access your Freebie through the command line /Respec.
Could you please have the Devs clarify this as well? It seems that if that is working as intended that we should at least be informed of it so it does not come as a surprise. Further, I would personally like it if the Freebie could only be used from the command line. That is just my preference.
Thanks for your time and keep up the good work CoH Team!
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Awww Cuppa don't take it to heart. I for one think you are doing an amzing job! Thank you for all your fine work.
<huggles> (I don't do many cute things so that is a supreme complement)
<recomposes herself into a grim sarcastic gamer>
Yes, Taser, we did get the math of the Regen changes. Now, what would you describe as the "point break reason"?
[ QUOTE ]
As to why we made the change, the answer is simple. Regen was simply too good in PvE and PvP. As many of you have already said, it was not uncommon to survive a mission 3 levels higher than you built for 3 player, or even take on and defeat an ArchVillain. Combine that with no down time, and Regen Scrappers were unparalleled in PvE and unstoppable in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't see much more than a vague "you guys were overpowered" - no specifics, just a general statement that doesn't actually match up with my own experience. Sure we could take difficult missions. *Most* ATs can say the same. Sure we could solo AVs. Again, *most* ATs can say the same. That, to me, calls into question the "unparalleled" categorization in PvE. PvP may be different - but if we're only unparalleled in PvP, then the changes should only have *been* for PvP. We never - not *once* - got any evidence of how "unparalleled" we were in PvE.
Kam
The only other powersets I can think of that can actually do enough damage and take enough damage to solo an AV is illusion and fire controllers.
Regardless, how was regen nerfed in issue 2 again? I really want to know.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
The only other powersets I can think of that can actually do enough damage and take enough damage to solo an AV is illusion and fire controllers.
Regardless, how was regen nerfed in issue 2 again? I really want to know.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tanks have done it. Defenders have done it. Other (i.e. not regen) Scrappers have done it. That (together with Controllers) makes 'most' in my book.
As to a supposed "I2 nerf" to Regen - you'll have to ask the person that made that comment. It wasn't me.
Kam
My background: I've played in a number of MMOs for many years (though never EQ or UO, so I'm an unusual case in that way). I've generally been very active on boards, especially beta and testing boards. I have 15 years of experience in customer service and so I'm especially hard on the customer service people. I feel too many MMO people see players as the enemy instead of the customer and I'm glad that I don't count CoH devs among those numbers. A number of MMO CS people grew to dislike me, but I really think in most every case I helped make their game and their CS better. Anyway...
[ QUOTE ]
I produce several status reports and participate in conference calls with the team in California twice every week.
[/ QUOTE ]
This sends up all sorts of red flags for me. I've known other instances where the CS people were in different cities (and even different continents) than the devs that actually have all the answers to the questions and it is very, very problematic. A much better situation is where you can walk around a corner to someone's cubicle and say "I'm seeing this bug talked about a lot, do we know about it and what is the status of the fix?" I know this is something that you probably can't do anything about, but it is a tough situation to provide high quality CS in.
[ QUOTE ]
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is true, but I'm not sure it is good enough. Let's say that someone whose job it is is to monitor the boards alerts Positron about a thread they think he should read (I believe that is how your system works?). He then reads it, finds the issue in question and (hopefully) the evidence presented and goes off to investigate. In that case it would have taken him just another minute to reply that he has seen it and is looking into it. Then, after he has looked into it, he could come back and either say that they looked into it and are happy with it or that they looked into it and are going to be working on a fix/adjustment. Or, even better, you could have someone whose time is perhaps not quite as valuable as Positron's (read: intern) come to give that information.
That would take just an extra few minutes and provide exactly the kind of feedback that paying customers deserve and expect. I'm not saying you could do that with every thread on the board, but at least on the bigger issues.
Check 1/3 down this page for a list of over 40 bugs logged, many of which have been discussed at length on the test center forums for a month without responses from devs: What still needs to be fixed/addressed?
It is great that someone came yesterday and addressed a few of the earlier ones and said they are looking into the rest. But I really believe that could have been done weeks ago for most of the issues.
And this thread has been more deserving of a response than any I have seen in a long time. It is well thought out and provides solutions instead of just problems. The lack of a response has really been demoralizing to testers that want to believe we are making a difference: Accuracy, defense balancing suggestion
Scorus
sagcat wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
But don't cause the riot and then act all offended that you got one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here I insert the metaphor of certain people and certain amounts of dress or undress being the cause of something happening to them, and then talk about how in your view they will be judged harshly unless they respond in a complacent and cooperative manner. (bleh)
Suffice it to say that I'm disgusted by this attitude. Rioting is vandalism writ large. It doesn't accomplish anything, it only hurts the community. Do you want CoH to follow in the footsteps of WoW?
The Devs DO NOT cause rioting. They make changes. Those changes frustrate people, and often validly so. But you will only harm our community when you lead the pack in throwing a temper tantrum.
Be persistant.
Be persuasive.
But do so politely and to the point.
How bout this one- nerf opinions.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but silence is not an acceptable response when people have lots of questions and concerns. And frankly, when there are lots of questions and concerns, the community has a pretty good track record of spotting what won't work in the live game. Case in point, Uber bosses. Case in point, SS/SJ getting a -50% Acc nerf.
And as for the regen...Geko, Positron, and Statesman all gave the reason for the IH/Int nerf that we were so much better than other scrappers and other heroes. Our testing said that the justification plainly and simply wasn't true, we weren't much better than other scrappers, and other character types could do the things that supposedly was so overpowered, and that not all builds. Finally, the test results that Statesman posted, even with its faults, only showed us about even with SR and below Inv. If the devs found another reason than the one stated by Geko, Positron, and Statesman, we deserved to hear it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can actualy contest this because my Fire/Fire Tanker can demolish a similiar lvl Earth(I know I got it wrong, but most of my experience is with Final Fantasy type games) tanker but can't effect regen scrappers. The massive regen rates can be a real issue under the right circumstances more so than other meleeVSmelee combinations. Unless they made changes to the contray, Invulnerables lose alot of there defense in PvP because they require a large group of enemies inorder to get full effect. You also need to consider the different scrapper primaries. Claws with it's greater criticals can be devastating if your opponent doesn't have proper heals. I'm personaly curious about your testing because if you didn't test all the combinations including the tanker secondaries, and scrapper primaries then the testing was fundamentaly flawed. Testing a part tells you little to nothing about the whole, but if you break the whole down to it's parts, you can learn things you couldn't possibly have imagined ahead of time. I've tried to get everyone to understand that the individual parts are meaningless if separated from the whole, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears. MMOs are not just games, they are an extension of reality do to their large player populations so PLEASE start trying to expand your focus. It will make things better for everyone.
As with the bulk of my posts no pronouns except for 'I' were meant to be singular. I am simply trying to make CoH and CoV the best that they can be. Wether or not they reach their potential is up to how well the players/testers and the devs work together.
And in the end....
It's
Still
only
a
GAME!!!
[ QUOTE ]
And in the end....
It's
Still
only
a
GAME!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet it is so much more.
::sits back down to read Plato::
[ QUOTE ]
And in the end....
It's
Still
only
a
GAME!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously, whether due to time and money investment, or whatever, this is not 'just a game' to many players, and certainly not to the devs. That in and of itself is a tribute to the devs and staff..... even when they are a bit 'Cryptic'. 
Bless you CuppaJo You are Human indeed. I haven't posted much on here but I do enjoy reading the posts of others. I'm sorry that you and the CoH team have to be the target of such rude comments that some people make. You get nothing but praise from myself. Thank you CoH staff, Devs, techs, and moderators. You're doing a bloody great job.
[ QUOTE ]
Hurtful insults and disrespectful comments affect us. We are human. To have people disrespect you and insult you and something you have worked so hard on in front of the whole internet is disheartening and demoralizing at the very least.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately when you combine the anonymity of the internet with the passion a lot of people have with the game, you're going to wind up with a lot of monkies throwing crap at each other.
The boards provide an outlet for some of the steam that gets built up. It's quite hard to listen to some ideas that you think are beyond [colloquialism] and not say anything. And, in all honesty, the red names don't form a shield against it.
I, for one, would endevour to try and keep my comments more positive.
Or at the very least supply a grain of salt with my post.
[ QUOTE ]
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only problem with this comes when certain powersets have long-standing issues.
Case in point: ice tankers (yes, I am getting back on my soapbox). I have been trying, since beta, to get the disparency between ice armor and the other tanker primaries fixed. Between Circeus, Havok and myself, I feel we've more than proven that ice armor underperforms pretty dramatically; in fact, an invulnerability scrapper can often do a better job tanking for a team than an ice tanker, especially with team buffs.
This is not to say that I want to see anyone nerfed at all; I say this every time I bring this point up, because I want it absolutely clear. I would much rather see ice armor brought up in some manner.
Then there's the EA nerf. It's the ice tanker's best ability, one that we have to wait 26 levels to get (unlike invulnerability and fire, which only wait until L18). With pre-I4 EA, an ice tanker could get close to the capability of the other sets, as long as AVs/Monsters were not in the equation. Now? Much less likely to survive such, especially in the post L40 game with the many ways that enemies have for vastly increasing their accuracies or debuffing ice tanker defense, to go along with their already-high base to-hits.
When the thread was started on the test server forum, geko came in and explained his reasoning for the nerf. In turn, testing was done to show how incorrect his reasoning was in light of the in-game experience. We even provide detailed spreadsheets to show how much the nerf would hurt us.
But it still went live, without another word.
So you'll have to forgive many of us ice tankers when we're skeptical about if the dev team is really listening to us anymore. Myself included.
[ QUOTE ]
Statesman and I discussed community concerns in a conference call today and I wanted to share a few things with you that came up during the call. This is going to be rather long - just a friendly warning.
Background Info (AKA what is Cuppas relationship with the Dev Team?)
For those of you who have recently joined the CoH family or are just unclear about it, I wanted to explain exactly what my role is with the CoH team.
My job as a Community Coordinator is multi-faceted, but the main part of my job is to communicate community concerns to the rest of the CoH Team. I produce several status reports and participate in conference calls with the team in California twice every week.
I am also in constant communication with the rest of the team via email, phone calls, and in-person meetings. This includes the entire team, from the GMs, to CS, billing, Tech Support, OCR, the Dev team, the producers, marketing, PR, QA, network ops, and publishing coordinators.
I am "the voice of the community" as it were, not just a moderator. It is a powerful voice and it is a responsibility I do not take lightly.
I am also the conduit of information from the CoH team to you via the message boards. Yes, the devs do post here quite a bit, but I also post info from the other parts of the team (such as network operations) who do not post here. I am lucky as a community coordinator (CC) to have such a vocal dev team, many games do not and must rely on the CC for all communication. I am also lucky that the devs read the boards voraciously, many dev teams do not.
The Devs and Cuppa Discuss the boards -
After some recent comments the devs and I want to address some player concerns and clarify a few things.
Recent Regen Test Results
We have read quite a few comments that are concerned that the recent test results posted were the only tests done on regen. This is NOT the case. This was just a small set of data from a much larger range of tests. Statesman just wanted to post a small example of the results.
The comments the community has made have been read and were considered before Issue 4 went live. It was decided that the dev team felt the changes were needed and the issue went out with them.
No recent response to an issue -
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
The Devs Hate us!
No they don't. Despite all the comments by players to the contrary, the devs do not have it out for any AT/power set/power. We have a responsibility to the individual player to make their game experience fun, but we also have a responsibility to the whole community to make their game experience fun too.
This also extends to Issue content - we try to add a little something for everyone each issue. Every player has things they consider their priority for new content. Some love costumes, some like new art, some new story. We try to even it out to give everyone something. There is only so much time in the day - but we work as hard as we can to make the game better.
Official Threads, Posting, and You
Finally - The devs wanted me to state again why we have official threads and what they are looking for in posts.
Change is stressful. We understand that. However, certain comments (and these are mild examples)-
"The Devs are retards. These changes are crap."
"Nerf <insert AT here> instead"
Are just unconstructive and honestly, put people on the defensive. If you want to know what types of posts make the most impact take a look at this recent post -
"I jumped into the arena on test last night to check out the latest changes. While playing a couple matches, I really thought gameplay moved very slow. Not lag, but the interaction with players. With no super speed, suppression, etc. I certainly didn't die as much, but I wasn't damaging, being damaged, or encountering other players either.
I was playing a grav/storm, which has looong animation times for anything so that probably comes into play. But half way through the second match I just got bored with it, and found it niether frustrating or exciting - just, meh.
I'm really not sure what happened or if this is just my AT, but it would be a reason why I probably won't visit the arena half as much as I thought I would. Maybe it was the frustrating component and the danger of the suped-up PvP that kept me coming back night after night."
Not a glowing report - but simple, honest, tested feedback. We love seeing some of the more complex testing posts that some of you do - those are awesome, but I don't want the community to feel like it takes that level of post to be constructive or that you will not be listened to if you do not post that way.
Official Threads are not places we herd you to to ignore you - They are created so that all of the player comments on an issue can be easily read and digested by the devs. It keeps people from feeling like they need to post the same thing in 17 threads to make sure they are heard. The devs and I would encourage everyone to post constructive feedback in the official threads. They are the best way to get your concerns read.
I have seen comments that state that if the devs are going to be devs then they should grow a think skin and learn to take the insults. We disagree. We care an awful lot about this game. We pour our hearts, minds, and energy into making this game. Many of us have spent years of our lives working as hard as we can and trying our best to make the best game possible. We want players to have fun. We stealth team with lowbies to hear the reactions to things like super jump for the first time. To experience the joy of a great pick up team take down an AV.
Hurtful insults and disrespectful comments affect us. We are human. To have people disrespect you and insult you and something you have worked so hard on in front of the whole internet is disheartening and demoralizing at the very least.
The bottom line is we respect you and your comments, we do listen, and we are glad you play and thank you for being heroes. We ask for your respect in return.
Finally, thanks to all the heroes who test, provide feedback, and go above and beyond the average player to help us make the game. Thanks to the community who makes us laugh when things are rough and for all the kind words you have sent our way in the past year. We appreciate it!
[/ QUOTE ]
If you care so much about this game, its players, and want to make it fun, then why nerf everyone? Why not just raise the other powers up? Is your balance paradigm of 1 hero = 3 +3 minions (after SOs) so important that you are willing to alienate and completely piss off so much of your player base?
I have a theory on why you would do that. It's simple. Nerfed powers = more time to level = more money for you.
Well if I log a crapload of hours into a game, grinding and struggling to get through it, I'm NOT gonna re-roll another character and go through that again. Last time I got sick of grinding I quit for about 4 months. I came back, basically because of perma-elude (I was a SR scrapper back before the first buff, right out of beta) and figured I could do more than grind by street sweeping even conned minions, and MAYBE three yellow ones. IF I got lucky.
So I come back, all excited that I could actually feel like a hero, and before I hit 38, BAM. Here comes the nerf bat. Really took the wind out of my sails.
If I get back to the point where I'm not having fun because I can't survive in teams made of players I've either convinced single handedly to buy the game, or helped convince, I'll quit again. This isn't a warning. I'm just saying. Making it harder won't make people play longer. It'll make them quit faster. I have a ton of games to catch up on, including the Neverwinter and Morrowind expansion packs that I still haven't gotten around to.
I love this game. I really do. I waited patiently for around 3 years for this game. Back when it was first announced, to the time I got the beta invite for being signed up on the CoH boards since freaking 2001/2002. And I'm readdicted. However, I'm not playing my main anymore. I've switched to a regen alt. My SR scrapper can't take part in AV fights or team anymore, so all I can do with him is solo to level 50. No task forces, no trials, just solo missions. When it feels like grinding again, I may just take off.
Thanks Cuppa for the post, But I am sorry any heavy negative comments from PAYING customers does contain positive learning for your dev crew.
1. We pay for this!
2. The whole concept behind a super hero game is to make powerful heroes, so if a person finds their much loved been weaken or the rewards being reduce (sewers and Karens). Of course we/I get pissed (see 1.).
3. It is an intentional issue, many people feel that the "reaching balance thru reduction" results in weaken a much loved character. How about "reaching balance thru improvement", so our loved Heroes get more powerful! I love it when I played with the retired Dark Iron on champion as a Regen/DM at 50 he rocked, kicked everything, much enjoyment.
4. Cuppa if you are concerned with Enjoyment, maybe think about 3. ???
Adults behaving like children? Adults paying out good cash and in love with their created hero maybe!!
Peace
[ QUOTE ]
And in the end....
It's
Still
only
a
GAME!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
THERE...
ARE...
FOUR...
LIGHTS!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And in the end....
It's
Still
only
a
GAME!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
THERE...
ARE...
FOUR...
LIGHTS!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Damn Cardassian torturers...
[ QUOTE ]
Lazy argument. George Washington and the other founders used violence to protest his displeasure with England's tyranny. Revolutionaries throughout history have done the same. What does this have to do with a message board? Nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your right, and I should really know better then to be baited by Sagcat into trying to use his own half a$$ed comparison.
[ QUOTE ]
The developers are entitled to respect, but the level of respect must be earned. When the devs do and say things which are clearly illogical and contemptuous of our intelligence, then they deserve the grief that they get.
We either were lied to, or the devs were incompentent regarding the Regen changes. We were not listened to with regard to those changes. So many of us posted detailed findings with alternatives that led to the same result only in a more fair fashion. We were ignored.
They can post and say that they listen all they want to. I believe actions not pretty words.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, do you really think they would listen to someone who posts hatefilled and downright flameworthy posts in the first place (And before anyone says it, I am not saying you are one of those people)? Of course not. You don't have to agree with their decisions, and you don't have to like them. However, as the old saying goes:
"You will catch more flies with honey then with vinegar".