Appreciate the post Cuppa. Would like to say a more direct response from the Devs would be better. Maybe more locked posts from the powers that be that state yeah, we heard ya about X, Y, & Z. That way we do not see piling up pages with only player input.
I would just like to say that I think you missed a I4 feature. The trees have leaves! Spring is in the air! KR looks more alive! Just get the Arborist to fix that one dead one that I always see on my SJ to KR entrance from the tram in IP.
Thanks for talkin to us!
Though i can certianly appreciate that calling the devs bad names and developing a enviroment of defensivness is not ecactly helpful. It still remains that many players would like more clear explanations to why some of there toons are facing adjustments.
First off, though some powers put forth obvious advantages in PVE wich carry over to PVP, there are many players that, though the arena might have provided a nice sidetrack to normal PVE game play, really didnt want to see blanketing adjustments for the purpose of balancing arena play. Personally changes to MOG or Elude only effect me in the people i face in the arena, and since that is a take it or leave it in the overall progression of my characters, I really didnt care if a scrapper ran perma MOG. I dont have to fight him if i dont want to. But those changes in PVE change dramaticly the usefullness and fun that people continued to play this game for.
The change that did most effect me is Lightform. I took on a peacebringer on day one if issue 3, i leveled it to the mid 20s with the forms and really didnt have alot of fun with it and shelfed it. At a low point after finishing the level grind on a controler, i picked it backup, used the free respec to drop forms gets some human strenght going and enjoyed it alot more. But by level 40 with perma lightfrom really felt the AT came into its own. It was not to strong, the drop created weakness, the secondary power set complimented the play style and made the powers must haves, instead of ignorable as so many other "uber" powers do. This was stated over and over by many players in the thread, with no responses.
Simply a single post saying that the power was never intended to be perma(even though it was being tested and designed at the same time as the invulnerability changes to unstoppable) really dosent cut it to me. It might never have been intended, but does that mean it NEEDS to be changed. Hasten was probly never intended to be perma, and was probly looked at by the devs strangly when people slotted 6 recharges instead of defense bonus to it but it doesnt need to be changed. And when the offical lightform thread goes 2 weeks with no responses to these concerns. No support from internal testing as regen or other powers thread got, it makes a player base that worked hard to succeed with a AT that most who could play it gave up on feel even further ignored.
Obviously Stateman and the Devs cant spend all day responding to every post on the forums. But when clearly some issues are getting greater response then others, the ones being ignored will tend to get jaded. Another good example is the blaster forums. Cries of blancing the AT went forward for months, last count i think was 5 months before we got even a "were gonna look at it" response with no promises to when. Unfortunately in my eyes those that scream the loudest tend to get the notice. The lightform thread is like 10 pages the regen i believe is well over 30. Just because less people play kheldians(which is by devs design not player choice due to the level 50 requirment) i dont feel the players posting concerns in a thread offically started to get that response from the community should feel ignored.
Why is lightform changed? It has weekness, its blanaced really to me to the level of the normal scrapper defenses, its weakness is evident every 2 minutes, it requires secondary set support, and offers things needed for the AT like mez resistances that unlike other sets is not found in any other power the set offers. Its a strong power that falls well below the capabilities of a elude or MOG or unstoppable did this was stated time and time again by players in that thread with no response. No justification beyond the need to nerf MOG and elude, when its a completely different monster.
Thought I can appreciate what you do for the community, unfortunately the forums still seem to be a who makes the biggest stink gets the most notice enviroment. The Quantum Fly changes would be another great example. Though i dont have aproblem with it as a phase shift power, as a promised max speed travel power for the AT taking the at will ability away from it with out offering a travel related alternative seemed a bad choice. But that thread i believe has been up since issue 4 hit test and i think still has no response or evidence that the devs even recognize the concerns, much less hear the worries of the community.
Over all i understand my example are probly more my personal issues, but then as i said i will leave it up to a SR player to argue their causes, i can only use examples i have tracked. But i hope my post has illustrated that when repsonses, test results, and general recognition of the players concerns happen only to the most popular threads, it leaves alot of the community i think feeling over looked, and that our issues are ignored as not effecting enough people for the devs to care.
Gallant, your post pretty much summed up what I was going to say, and I had already rated you 5. Want a cookie to go with it? 
Great post. Hopefully this will reasure people of the Devs participation.
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Some people are more docile than others. On the other hand, some people grow up and become revolutionaries, protestors, and radicals. Those people were taught (rightly) to question authority. And those people will speak loudly and tersely when it's justified. And the docile ones will think the loud ones are being immature.
And the authority under question can respond to protest in a number of ways. How Cryptic responds to the community, even when the community is rioting, is up to them. But don't cause the riot and then act all offended that you got one.
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And yet there is a difference to protesting against a great injustice or starting a revolution against social intolerances, and sitting on a message board posting things like "OMG! YOU SUCK BECAUSE YOU NERFED SMOKE GRENADE! STATESMAN IS A LIAR AND A THIEF! CRYPTIC NERFED MY BABY! I'M QUITTING FOR WOW IF YOU DON'T ALLOW ME TO CHANGE MY EYECOLOR TO PEUCE!!!!!111"
People are not being asked not to voice their displeasure. Their being asked to voice their displeasure in a calm, rational manner.
Or, in case you need another example:
Your being asked to conduct yourself like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, not like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.
Thank you for clarifying some of the process of how you all are working on being responsive to the community. It helps us to know what kind of work you are doing to evaluate our concerns, in addition to actually making game changes, etc.
Devs have feelings too, and actually, some of the disrespectful, condescending comments that players post here really leaves me feeling bad about the whole picture here sometimes. I try to avoid those kinds of comments myself and keep it constructive, even when I feel like someone else is being rude. Sometimes I think we all need to take a deep breath and remember this is a game we love, and it's not about negativity.
Keep up the great work,
-Red Warlock
Red Warlock
- "The Shadow Rune of the Warlocks" (Arc ID 124319).
- "The Legion of Mutants vs. The Iron Agents" (Arc ID 200364).
- "The Children of Astoria" (Arc ID 217499)
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There's a flaw in your reasoning. 3 year olds don't post on the forums. Adults, however, do. And it's not an unfair request for people to *act* like adults instead of throwing temper tantrums like 3 year olds.
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Amen. It's also worth noting that it's not just developers who might be offended by some of the whinesulting that goes on. There are people out there who might have worthwhile points of view to offer on a particular topic but don't want to post after seeing umpteen "devs are out to get us" (which doesn't make sense) and "well, I'm just going to quit because I'm being disrespected" (over-personalizing and over-reacting) posts. In my case, I often find myself making excuses for changes just because I don't want to be aligned in any way with those kinds of comments. Then, of course, there's the fact that if anyone offers any support for a developer "nerf" decision they get slammed as being kiss-ups (or other, even more insulting words).
The short version is that too many players take changes they feel are detrimental to their character(s) way too personally. That's not to say that there aren't good reasons to complain (hi, I'm running a spines/DA who was looking forward to cloak of fear, at least before this latest issue) but the attitude that comes out is too often counterproductive.
In my view, paying $15 a month doesn't entitle anyone to anything beyond access to the game provided. Some people, though, feel that it gives them license to treat the people they're paying like dirt (see professional sports for examples of entertainment fans feeling and acting in similarly crude, unacceptable fashion). That's a crying shame.
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Or, in case you need another example:
Your being asked to conduct yourself like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, not like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.
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I would never ask the devs to calmly accept being bombed. you've twisted my reasonable point into something preposterous. And no one should have to ever read anything in all caps. (see? I'm reasonable.)
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...Change is stressful. We understand that. However, certain comments (and these are mild examples)-
"The Devs are retards. These changes are crap."
"Nerf <insert AT here> instead"
Are just unconstructive and honestly, put people on the defensive...
...Hurtful insults and disrespectful comments affect us. We are human. To have people disrespect you and insult you and something you have worked so hard on in front of the whole internet is disheartening and demoralizing at the very least.
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So when is the promised 'Nerf People' patch coming..... we've been expecting it from I3 at least!
Should we expect it for I5 or sooner?
Please consider this post as a sick attempt at humour and DO NOT take it seriously in ANY way
Actually, I'll just say that you guys do deserve our respect, as do other players who mutually treat others with respect. I personally appologize for any post that you may have felt didn't convey this toward Cryptic staff. Unfortunately I can only appologize on my own behalf.
Thanks again.
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There's a flaw in your reasoning. 3 year olds don't post on the forums. Adults, however, do. And it's not an unfair request for people to *act* like adults instead of throwing temper tantrums like 3 year olds.
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You beat me to it. Case and point, thanks for saving me the typing. 
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Or, in case you need another example:
Your being asked to conduct yourself like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, not like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would never ask the devs to calmly accept being bombed. you've twisted my reasonable point into something preposterous. And no one should have to ever read anything in all caps. (see? I'm reasonable.)
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Actually, I wasn't trying to make it sound like you asked the Dev's to calmly accept being bombed. What I was trying to say, however, was that there are peacefull protests and revolutions (Like MLK or Rosa Parks did) and hatefull protests and revolutions (Like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden).
I assure you Cuppajo is most definetley down with the street.
Word up my homie as it were.
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Or, in case you need another example:
Your being asked to conduct yourself like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, not like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would never ask the devs to calmly accept being bombed. you've twisted my reasonable point into something preposterous. And no one should have to ever read anything in all caps. (see? I'm reasonable.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I wasn't trying to make it sound like you asked the Dev's to calmly accept being bombed. What I was trying to say, however, was that there are peacefull protests and revolutions (Like MLK or Rosa Parks did) and hatefull protests and revolutions (Like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden).
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Basically he's say there's constuctive criticism and then there's [censored] and moaning.
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Basically he's say there's constuctive criticism and then there's [censored] and moaning.
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Exactly. Thanks _Pax_.
I, like many out there, get to be one of the people to honestly say that "I have been playing since Beta". This is, also, my first MMO... not including tastes of Galaxies, Planetside, and Everquest that I have had in the past. By first MMO, I mean the first one I've ever owned. This is mainly due to the face that I've had friends ranting about the things done in "their" games from a Dev-Team approach that seem so... wrong.
It would often sound like the those "other" games' Dev Teams would be tweaking the powers based on the vocal minority. They would come back with a response that sounded like a veiled "If one person breaks the rules, you all do" kind of teacher response. Punishing the whole class, as it were.
I never liked the idea that the games would be modified from the time I start playing... because in those three games I mentioned, they seemed to become less fun, not more... but this all changed with my roommate and his brother who have been waiting for this game since they were in high school. I'd long wondered what kind of games they were into (because it's often the only common ground I have with other people), and at some point... City of Heroes came up.
I've enjoyed comic books for years, off and on, but I never got into them as much as my two roommates did. They started talking about this game, and where it had started with... the changes, the delays, and it sounded like another company I knew (Nintendo, actually, not Blizzard) in that the longer you waited for a game, the better it got before release. I learned from them that the game was going to be coming out "soon" and that there was no way they weren't going to be in on it.
When the game finally went into public beta, you know what I found out? I found out then that the Devs really do listen to us. I really felt important when I was sending off bug report after bug report. There was "floating" geometry in Independence Port... you couldn't jump over any of those shorter walls without Hurdle. There were little messages set up so when you completed a mission... was it easy, hard, or whatever. I submitted ideas, and I submitted my thoughts on how some of the things worked in the game... and you know what? Lots if not all of the thing I've submitted have been done! I'm not saying their listening to me specifically... I'm saying that they're listening to us (you and me)... we just have to continue to be vocal about it... and in a reasonable way.
CuppaJo, I've been playing this game for a year plus. Recently I even managed to get my own account (with the Valentine's Day thing, actually). I'm still out here, I'm still sending bug reports, and every time people start using foul language in Peregrine Island, I'm there with a Petition "just in case" those people are ruining other people's gameplay experience just as their ruining my own. I don't pretend to think you're listening directly to me or that I'm more important because I've been here longer or anything. I just happen to know you listen to everyone... If you didn't, then we wouldn't have a Badge that says "Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls."
You guys, all of you, have made a great game. I will be sticking with you until the end when I'll be buying CoH2...
See you in the Future,
Huntermun
P.S.: I don't think it would be totally out of the question to focus heavily in one area or another in certain Issues. I like that you guys are all over the board (I just saw Lou's warehouse for the first time in a long, long time last night... nice tileset), but maybe you might want to focus on something in an update more specifically. This time we got Arena, next time we get Skills (::crosses fingers:
, but how about making a huge addition to the costumes after that? ... or spending time making all the missions look more distinct... and lastly... something has to be done to make the plot more obvious in some missions. I love reading it but (for example) when it's timed... I click away to go do the mission, forgetting to read the full text... Oh, and more Souvenirs!... Will we have a shelf for those in our "homes" or headquarters later? That would be cool. Where are the children of the city? The homeless? The handicap? Why do none of the cars ever park? Why are the stoplights not blinking yellow to indicate they aren't working instead of just being off... and (lastly)... is weather so hard?... at least give us some wind to blow our capes (or no wind in an office, unless there's AC)...
I'm gunna stop now... n\_/n
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Gallant, your post pretty much summed up what I was going to say, and I had already rated you 5. Want a cookie to go with it?
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I think you and Cyberberus already gave me a couple, thanks.
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Not a glowing report - but simple, honest, tested feedback. We love seeing some of the more complex testing posts that some of you do - those are awesome, but I don't want the community to feel like it takes that level of post to be constructive or that you will not be listened to if you do not post that way.
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On that note, extensive testing has been done about the concern that the defensive bonus of Invincibility is not stacking properly with the defensive bonus of Tough Hide. Can we get an official word either way that it is or is not working correctly?
Hmmm... a post where someone tries to compare their compaign to be able to solo AVs with the great revolutionaries that fought for social change.
I can't tell if this is more or less offensive than someone comparing the regen nerf to the Holocaust.
Regardless, good post CuppaJo, even if some people don't realize the way they go about getting their voice heard just makes sure more people ignore it.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Between all the whining, ranting, praising, hating, loving, flames, constructive comments, etc that go on here, and all the changes, add-ons, deletions, nerfs, improvements, added content, etc, - IT'S STILL A GREAT GAME.
Keep it up.
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No recent response to an issue -
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
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I can understand this, and I appreciate the fact that you're posting about it here. However, I'm not sure you guys (i.e. you as CC, the devs, etc) appreciate just how demoralizing it is for players to post well thought out and constructive feedback, negative or otherwise, to a change that is important to us and see absolutely nothing from the dev team about it. The fact that you mention the regen testing and changes underscores this: while I don't want to take anything away from the concerns regens and other scrappers have, for some of us it really send a message when regen scrappers recieved 10+ posts and a round or two of in depth testing in response and others recieved nothing. I'm thinking specifically of gravity controllers, but I have no doubt others felt the same way as well. When one particular group of players recieves a great deal of particular attention, and another recieves exactly nothing, it creates suspicion and hostility on the parts of players, and in my view it's hard to blame them. It's understandable that some community issues require more attention than others, but it doesn't take long to drop a post saying "Hi, just letting you know we have been reading your feedback." and letting us know either that there's more testing and evaluation going on, or that the devs have made a decision. Even this small gesture would do a lot to retain the confidence of players, even if the actual changes to the game don't go the way a given player would have liked.
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Some people are more docile than others. On the other hand, some people grow up and become revolutionaries, protestors, and radicals. Those people were taught (rightly) to question authority. And those people will speak loudly and tersely when it's justified. And the docile ones will think the loud ones are being immature.
And the authority under question can respond to protest in a number of ways. How Cryptic responds to the community, even when the community is rioting, is up to them. But don't cause the riot and then act all offended that you got one.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet there is a difference to protesting against a great injustice or starting a revolution against social intolerances, and sitting on a message board posting things like "OMG! YOU SUCK BECAUSE YOU NERFED SMOKE GRENADE! STATESMAN IS A LIAR AND A THIEF! CRYPTIC NERFED MY BABY! I'M QUITTING FOR WOW IF YOU DON'T ALLOW ME TO CHANGE MY EYECOLOR TO PEUCE!!!!!111"
People are not being asked not to voice their displeasure. Their being asked to voice their displeasure in a calm, rational manner.
Or, in case you need another example:
Your being asked to conduct yourself like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, not like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lazy argument. George Washington and the other founders used violence to protest his displeasure with England's tyranny. Revolutionaries throughout history have done the same. What does this have to do with a message board? Nothing.
The developers are entitled to respect, but the level of respect must be earned. When the devs do and say things which are clearly illogical and contemptuous of our intelligence, then they deserve the grief that they get.
We either were lied to, or the devs were incompentent regarding the Regen changes. We were not listened to with regard to those changes. So many of us posted detailed findings with alternatives that led to the same result only in a more fair fashion. We were ignored.
They can post and say that they listen all they want to. I believe actions not pretty words.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
(Qoute Editted per topics I'd like to discuss)
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Recent Regen Test Results
We have read quite a few comments that are concerned that the recent test results posted were the only tests done on regen. This is NOT the case. This was just a small set of data from a much larger range of tests. Statesman just wanted to post a small example of the results.
The comments the community has made have been read and were considered before Issue 4 went live. It was decided that the dev team felt the changes were needed and the issue went out with them.
.....
No recent response to an issue -
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
......
Official Threads, Posting, and You
Official Threads are not places we herd you to to ignore you - They are created so that all of the player comments on an issue can be easily read and digested by the devs. It keeps people from feeling like they need to post the same thing in 17 threads to make sure they are heard. The devs and I would encourage everyone to post constructive feedback in the official threads. They are the best way to get your concerns read.
.....
Hurtful insults and disrespectful comments affect us. We are human. To have people disrespect you and insult you and something you have worked so hard on in front of the whole internet is disheartening and demoralizing at the very least.
The bottom line is we respect you and your comments, we do listen, and we are glad you play and thank you for being heroes. We ask for your respect in return.
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I would like to discuss some of the things you stated. First the comments on the Regen Test Results. You stated that several different tests were performed internally and we were only given a small sample. This was not what we were told. This is what Statesman told us:
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As I promised, here are the results from our latest Scrapper tests. Hope that we don't have the errors we did previously. We adjusted the builds and mobs faced based upon your input (thanks!). This includes the changes made to Regeneration and Dark Armor.
Test conditions:
Half-full trays of store-bought inspirations
Numbers indicate number of enemies to bring hero down reliably
Enhancements at level single origin
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I don't know about you, but it definitely did NOT sound like they did multiple tests beyond this OR that it was just "a small example of the results". If he had said that, we would have asked what other testing was done. You may not want to post everything, but you could've told us the range of testing performed. We might still be unhappy, but at least we could understand why you did it!
For Example:
"Our testing ranged from No inspirations and no pool powers to slotting out the defensive set as much as possible. Here are the overall results"
As for everything else I quoted, surely by now your team realizes how aggrevated the community becomes when there are absolutely no responses from your team on a thread that YOU made official and that has 100s or responses in it. We might not agree with you, but just a post saying, "We understand your concerns and will try to address them as best we can, however we feel the changes are justified at the moment. If we find that these changes are detremental to the overall player base, they will of course be changed." will satisfy most of us. And after all the posts we make in an official thread, after all of our analysis and thought, don't you think it's disrespectful to us to not even get a comment like that? We see it as your team being disrespectful to us and that causes us to return the same feelings! By all we know, you could be ignoring us until after the issue is released and then read it...later...after pushing it to live.
And that brings me to the "No comments on current releases" issue. Why is it that no response is made the day prior to release or even the day of? Don't you think it would cut down on the complaints and insults directed at your team? By continuing to comment after the fact, it always looks like your trying to cover your butts instead of being upfront and honest with us. I know this isn't what you mean to do, but honestly, it's not what you mean that matters -- it's what we perceive. If we perceive that you aren't listening to us by not replying to official threads, we act accordingly -- by insulting and yelling "DOOOOM."
As for your post CuppaJo, thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for talking with us. I know your team is in a very difficult position and you work very hard to try and keep us happy (hence your post). We are all human and we all get emotional about the things we spend a lot of time on. I hope my comments weren't taken as insults because they weren't meant to be. Hopefully they were somewhat constructive. I truely think your team is one of the best teams out there.
/renews his dues to the CuppaJo fan club
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No recent response to an issue -
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
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I think it is important for there to be an official post when the "dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is". Not to every post that comes up, but for items "they're looking at".
For example, I assume that the devs aren't done fixing controllers yet, I'm expecting more changes in I5. But if the devs decide that controllers are OK as is in I4, we sure would appreciate a post to that effect.
As my sig says, I hope many of you get a chance to work on an online MMorg someday....
Rend this space....
I think it's sad that she even has to post what she posted. What she said is just common sense -- something that a lot of players seem to lack. I love this game, but it's a game. Don't freak out and start harshing people's mellow about it.