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And I don't mean that Devs are directly rude, but that they sometimes take what appears to be a condescending approach of You don't see the big picture, so you do not realize that what you are doing is not actually fun.
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I don't really see that. I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility that they are condescending, just that I don't see it.
I do see that they have made certain changes where activities that they don't feel deserves reward had their reward diminished or removed. If one truly enjoyed the activity, then then the added reward of xp and Influence would be unnecessary. If you're speaking of tweaked powers, I will say that the vast majority in past Issues ultimately made sense and did a decent job of balancing the companies need to extend playing hours of their customers and making their customers happy with the service (because Cryptic/NCSoft ain't doing CoH just out of the goodness of their hearts).
[ QUOTE ]
This ignores that some people spend almost as much time playing the game as a Dev spends working on it.
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I'll ignore it too, I guess, because while it is flattering to the devs, accruing hours in CoH isn't a reliable indicator of much.
[ QUOTE ]
It ignores that many players often are more current and aware of power changes(as a whole) than the Dev team sometimes appears to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Being more up to date than Statesman on a specific mission or power at any given moment is not that hard. He's the creative head of the game, not one of the guys crunching code. He can triple-check his facts on the current Live or Test build while he's overseeing several more alpha versions of upcoming builds and CoV, and post less to the community. He can do as he's doing now and pretty much getting it right usually, and post as much as he does now. Which is it? There are only so many hours in the day.
As far as finding bugs, you know the drill: things happen. CoH is a lot more complicated and a more fluid code construct than a Mario Bros. console game.
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And it ignores the (I think) obvious problem of actually telling someone else that you know better than they do whether or not they are having fun.
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I've read a few posts over the last year where Statesman used an ill-considered turn of phrase centered on "fun". I didn't think highly of it, but I didn't take it personally. Ultimately, every game has rules or restrictions that bounce the player back inside the lines of what a particular game's idea of rewarding behavior is. MMOs are fluid constructs. It can be frustrating when the lines shift in a way one doesn't like. It can also be very fulfilling to present one's case to a game's developer and have the lines shift in a way one desires. In addition, sometimes the lines must be changed in a way that frustrates the devs and players because it seems to be needed to keep the publishing company happy. It's unfortunate, but CoH isn't a federal entitlement program.
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Folks spend hours and hours testing changes, give extensive feedback, and find widespread support of their findings, and then the changes go through to live as is. (Only to have the Devs find on Live the same issues that were reported by players on Test.)
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I must be incredibly intuitive in knowing that while the devs intend to release patches and updates as bug-free as possible, that there is a lot of commercial pressure to push a patch or update forward if the bugs in aren't show-stoppers yet resist quick fixes. Until MMOs become easier to make and enhance, it is just going to be the nature of the beast.
Notice that I4 on live had some crashing problems with some people and fixes were out lickety-split, but the glitch in Icon is on the to-do list. That is a good example of where marketplace forces developers to put their priorities for entertainment software. It's not pretty, it could be better, but it is what it is.
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t any rate, when Posi, Geko or any of the devs make a response on the boards, they are very clear in their meanings. Statesman? Not so much.
[/ QUOTE ]
To certain extent, I agree. I wonder if he's spread too thin at Cryptic, leading him to lean often on cheerleading rather than straight talk.
Dear Cuppajo ,
Dev team is certainly aware that all the modifications they have done to so many powers affected the way enhancements work into them .
Currently , as a "normal" player , i have absolutely no convenient way to know if i am wasting my precious enhencements i paid huge price for when im slotting them into my powers . I feel like im blindly slotting and it is very hard to know if i have gone over the cap for a power and in the end it leads to some frustration .
For instance , since issue 4 got live i have read that the Integration power has been modified . My Integration power on my scrapper is currently slotted with 5 healing single origin enh and 1 endurance reduction enh . I have no way to know if this configuration is optimal without having to get on this forum and ask "expert players" who do extensive testing to get a rough answer. In my opinion i think it isnt a convenient way to inform players about enhancements and slotting .
So , Cuppajo could you please convince the Dev team to either make a mouse-over information menu ( in the enhancement menu ) that could give players useful informations about how not to waste slots and enhancements ; or could you at least please ask the Dev Team to publish official information about that stuff on the website ( where it could be easily accessed without using the search engine ) ?
Enhancements and the way to use them has been a big concern to me since i bought the game . Reliable infos about them always were hard to get ( about nothing in the game manual , often outdated or unnoficial on the websites ) . I cant agree with the Dev team if their thinking is to let players "guess" how work things . It can contribute unvoluntarily to make our gaming experience less entertaining . I have been playing since almost a year and i still have no idea what some enhancements actually do ( like the Activation ones ) 
Anyway , im not sure it was the right place to post this neverending concern and im thinking about sending a PM too . If this message ever get to the eyes of the dev team then i will be very grateful .
Thanks
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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For instance , since issue 4 got live i have read that the Integration power has been modified . My Integration power on my scrapper is currently slotted with 5 healing single origin enh and 1 endurance reduction enh . I have no way to know if this configuration is optimal without having to get on this forum and ask "expert players" who do extensive testing to get a rough answer. In my opinion i think it isnt a convenient way to inform players about enhancements and slotting .
[/ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[ QUOTE ]
All this is posturing by Cryptic because they are being hounded by many players that say the game is NOT FUN NOW.
We won't play if its not fun.
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Then GO, Infernus. You said YESTERDAY you would quit, blah blah. You're not even a customer complaining anymore, so get out.
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So Statesman your joke about doooom when real troubles were being discussed was downright rude. I spent 800 HOURS of my life on a single tanker that was level 50 here. I deleted him and all but one of my other characters because of your cavalier attitude.
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Don't call Statesman rude because you were an idiot for deleting your toons in a huff. I remember your post, you flew off the handle about the SS issue, and INSTANTLY deleted all your toons, before even the reversal came down the line. You even made a post going "Oh well, I'm a man of my word and i'll go".
So GO. Stop your tinfoil hatting and tearing down of a good, positive thread.
Cuppa, thank you for your time and effort on theseforums. God only knows what your forum job must have been like these last few days, I don't envy you.
Heck, I ENJOY confrontation, and the boards were getting to be too much for me.
I appreciate all that the devs do for us. You continue to amaze.
Cuppa Joe,
thank you for having a real give and take discussion here. Having some explicit communication from the dev team about what's going on with your process is really helpful.
There are two issues that have been talked about a lot on these threads that I would really appreciate if the devs could give us some sense of what's up with these issues:
1) Hammidons:
There has been a lot of talk about Hammidon's being a problem in PvP. Are the devs looking into this? I know in the I4 write up it said "Hamidon Enhancements no longer are able to be generated at a level over 50" - but does that mean that people who previously got higher level Hammidons will get to keep them while others won't be able to get 50+ level Hammidons? Is there more that you are looking at to address this issue, or was that the change you made to address the issue?
2) Flight
The devs have talked a lot about dealing with SS/SJ in response to reactions over the change there, but they haven't talked about flight even 'though many posters have raised concerns about flight being too weak, hoping to see flight strengthened rather than ss/sj weakened. Any thoughts on that?
Thank you again for engaging us in this discussion. We really appreciate it,
Red Warlock
Red Warlock
- "The Shadow Rune of the Warlocks" (Arc ID 124319).
- "The Legion of Mutants vs. The Iron Agents" (Arc ID 200364).
- "The Children of Astoria" (Arc ID 217499)
Thanks Cuppa. Very nice. I always try to be polite about posts... though I can tend to get on a soapbox and blather on about one thing or another.
Take care all,
Rogue Demonhunter
PS: A suggestion that characters be allowed one Hami-O per power has been flying around. I suspect if the Dev's (no offence intended) do have balance at all in mind that this may be a fair solution. 
I mean they work so hard to remove powerleveling which realy only hurts those who let it bruise their opinion or the purity of the game experience... clearly letting folks continue to have powers slotted so very far above and beyond the average or casual gamer is hardly "Heroic" or fair for that matter. It's insane in game boosts to powers and way beyond what theyre SO enhanced compeditors can ever hope to do unless they too all farm that single giant blob of an AV/Monster over and over.. .and honestly who but dedicated, probably young or unemplyed or part time employed (no offence intended) powergamers realy have the time to do that? I have 2 hami-O's on my 50... (and one of them he cant even use so it's just sitting there till I have time to trade it but it's one of those insanely specific ones that probably only and EMP can make use of... I know my force field defender cant use a heal/end buff/recharge or whatever it is 
) but I work for a living so it shouldnt be at all surprizing that I have 2 and havent had time to farm Hami-o's for more or sell the one I can't use... If we had an auction house like other MMOG games I could have... Hint Cuppa/States... anybody, hint.
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One thing I've learned with my three year old is to not get upset when he flies off the handle, especially when I do something that I know is going to cause frustration, misunderstanding and a feeling of injustice.
I had to develop some thicker skin. If he gets into some junk food he's not supposed to have, I take it away - guess what? He's going to feel robbed, no matter how justified I am in taking it away.
Same thing with adults. You take things from them, strip something away that they care about, but you fail to justify your decision, you're going to generate a response of anger and frustration.
I hope this doesn't offend your sensibilities, poor devs, but DUH. You make people fall in love with their characters - that attachment is a great acheivement of your's. You screw with those characters, and you're going to get a response. It might even be loud abd obnoxious like my three year old's.
So long as you "balance" a set and give 6 contradictory justifications for it, people are going to call you on it. If you ever had a good enough reason to "balance" regen, you never communicated it or provided us with a good reason we could hang our hats on.
So so sorry to have made you all cry or whatever, but you got the response you could expect when you took those actions.
Your choices: make *reasonable* decisions or get thicker skin.
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There's a flaw in your reasoning. 3 year olds don't post on the forums. Adults, however, do. And it's not an unfair request for people to *act* like adults instead of throwing temper tantrums like 3 year olds.
[/ QUOTE ]
/em signed
Take a dash of Illuminati, add a sprinkle of Mafia and just a touch of Omnipresnce and a healthy helping of mob violence...
Pinnacle @Valmith
MOVE.... ALONG....
[ QUOTE ]
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If the dev team is satisfied with an issue, could you let us know?
There is nothing more frustrating than testing an issue, discussing an issue, dealing w/ an issue, and posting on an issue without any response. If the "no response" is b/c the powers are working as intended, it doesn't seem like it would harm much for the devs to just pop up w/ that post, and explain why it's working as intended. At least that lets us know what the context of the power is, so we can better understand what's going on w/ our beloved heroes.
Thanks!
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Well...
Sometimes just because the Dev's are satisfied with the issue as it is doesen't mean that someone can't come along with a brilliant idea or something that no one else saw. So, if they say "Well, we are fine with this as it is now" runs the risk of cutting off the person with that idea.
(Not that this is actually the reason why they don't say so.)
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I don't see it. If I post that "O2 Boost costs too much endurance b/c of xxxxx," and we get our usual 5-page flamefest of why or why not, and teh devs say "No,we're happy b/c O2 Boost does yyyyy," at least then I know what they're thinking. I know that I need to look at the power another way.
I'd just like to avoid the constant dead-horse bashing that goes on. If the devs like a a power working a certain way for a certain reason, I'd just ask that they let us know what the reason is.
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For instance , since issue 4 got live i have read that the Integration power has been modified . My Integration power on my scrapper is currently slotted with 5 healing single origin enh and 1 endurance reduction enh . I have no way to know if this configuration is optimal without having to get on this forum and ask "expert players" who do extensive testing to get a rough answer. In my opinion i think it isnt a convenient way to inform players about enhancements and slotting .
[/ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
In I3, I had a definitely sub-optimal regen build that was fun.
In I4, sub-optimal appears to no longer be sustainable.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I do my best to avoid message board whining, especially related to balance issues. I came from EQ, and discovered that listening to people constantly complaining about one thing or another was destrimental to my enjoyment of the game.
I come to this message board to read about upcoming events, changes, and specials, offer content suggestions (rather than balance suggestions), and read game-related humour.
One of the things I've noticed about the board that makes it difficult for those interested in posting or reading helpful or informative information is that the pages are extremely short by default. A thread may have 200 posts, but is split into 20 10-message pages. Those who are not logged in don't even have the option to avoid this format.
The 'Official' threads can get even worse since many of them go over even 200 replies since player feedback is requested.
That kind of apparent volume makes people more likely to jump to the end and say 'I didn't want to read everything, but I think X feature suXXors. You should all die. I hate you all!', when some helpful clarification that made the issue being discussed not nearly so inflammatory or controversial.
My suggestion to alleviate this somewhat is to change the default page length from 10 posts to 30 or 40 posts. Longer pages means less hopping back and forth between pages, and slightly longer tempers when searching for that 'reply' button.
Along with lowering the temperature of some discussion, this may also have positive benefits to resource usage on the message board. Hardware-wise, my guess is that this would even alleviate database load somewhat. Sure, four times as much data is returned with every message board related 'SELECT', but queries only happen 1/4th as often and fewer requests are directed to the database at one time.
Also, consider making the 'ignore this poster' button a part of the main discussion page rather than a bottom-of-the-page feature on user profiles. Again, this soothes discussions and keeps them more rational and less retalitory. The poster who gets angry and clicks 'ignore' is less likely to post and say 'I hate you! I hate the devs! You're all stupid! Nobody listens to me! Whaaaaa!'.
Do the release notes need to include anything about Fire Tankers, or is everything we need to know within the Taunt modifications?
I do have to agree with the above poster -- long posts are hard to read/keep track of, but I understand that they work well for you all...
_______________________________________________
Take flight for example. I'd hate to find out i wasted a slot/influ on a useless flight speed enhanch when i could have put an extra end reducer in.
[ QUOTE ]
I understand your feelings here, however I want to emphasize that there is no malice in our intentions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally and speaking of the Regen changes, I don't think you guys were out to "get us." I also understand that you are, after all, human. Humans make mistakes. I just wanted to let you into the minds of us paranoid Regens. Also, I hope I didn't rekindle any of the "they took yer Regen" debate. Thanks for listening.
RP
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I have seen comments that state that if the devs are going to be devs then they should grow a think skin and learn to take the insults. We disagree. We care an awful lot about this game. We pour our hearts, minds, and energy into making this game. Many of us have spent years of our lives working as hard as we can and trying our best to make the best game possible. We want players to have fun. We stealth team with lowbies to hear the reactions to things like super jump for the first time. To experience the joy of a great pick up team take down an AV.
Hurtful insults and disrespectful comments affect us. We are human. To have people disrespect you and insult you and something you have worked so hard on in front of the whole internet is disheartening and demoralizing at the very least.
The bottom line is we respect you and your comments, we do listen, and we are glad you play and thank you for being heroes. We ask for your respect in return.
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I agree, and on that note I wanted to relay a little story of how this type of thing can get way, way out of proportion.
In one of the earliest MMOGs, UO, the lead designer's (Raph Koster) house burned down. I'm not talkoing an in-game house, although UO, unlike any other game before or since, has had real player housing, but a real life house. Raph has a family, wife, kids, the whole nine yards. He had to scramble to find a roof to put over his/their head. This is a great tragedy in anyone's life, and quite a bit more important then any video game. What was the reaction from his "fan-base"?
Well, like any fan-base, reactions varied. However several people came out with comments like "Good, he deserved it for bringing us the crap that is UO". Now, by all accounts, Raph is a nice, friendly person, very well-educated, into music and games. However, even if he were a nasty scumbag, what sort of person would cheer his and hsi family's house bruning down, just because they didn't like how he had designed a game which they nonetheless continued to play? Doesn't that strike people as just a tad extreme? It did me, and it will always stick in my head as a prime example of man's inhumanity to man over the smallest, pettiest of motivations.
I'd like to think this community is better then that, but it isn't. I'm sure that if Jack Emmert's house burned down tomorrow people would be stating on the boards that it "served him right for the regen nerfs" or something idiotic like that. The majority, like on the boards for UO, might well sympathize, but the nutcases would speak the loudest and would have the biggest effect. We cannot change that. The anonymity of the internet guarantees that [censored] will be [censored]. We can only control our own actions and reactions to things, and on that note I would like to ask each person here to please, think of the humanity behind anyone you refer to in your post, whether a fellow player, dev, community coordinator, or what-have-you. You don't know much about them, they may be nasty, venal people in real life, but what you do know is that they are fellow human beings, and deserve to be treated as such.
Infinity:
Ellen, 50 MA/Inv Scr
February Night, 14 Ice/Ice Blstr
Guardian:
SilverSwordmaid, 29 Kat/Rgn Scr
Vicious Killer, 33 Emp/Enrgy Def
Electromagness, 40 Rad/Rad Def
Sense of Humor, 50 Fire/En Tank
Virtue:
Kickfest, 50 MA/SR Scr
Freedom:
Glorious Ending, 29 EM/DA Bru
I think you missed several points of what I said, even in the parts you quoted, but rather than a long piece-by-piece debate, I choose this as the key point to respond to.
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...It's not pretty, it could be better, but it is what it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it can be better, then we should continue to try and make it so, and that won't happen via apathy or blind acceptance.
Simply put:
Cuppa is the last one of "them" I have any faith in at all.
Thanks, Cuppa.
I appreciate the greater amount of feedback Cuppa and the devs have been giving us lately.
Don't agree with every change, but I don't think you can say they haven't been trying to communicate their vision and respond to noted issues.
I've never met a developer as responsive as they've been lately (Microsoft tech? Symantec? etc., etc.).
[ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Question, do you enjoy spending money on something that has little or no use to you?
While I know influence and power slots and enhancement slots aren't money, they're comparable things- currency you work to earn and can be "spent" to your benefit.
So the parallel is similar- people don't want to spend their hard-earned currency on something that gives them marginal (or nonexistant) benefit, especially when there's alternatives that are far superior.
Also, we're heros- We want to feel powerful. Its part of the game's theme.
Tygara - 50 Claws/Regen/Power Scrapper, Virtue- Member of Kitties on the Prowl.
Shadeburn - Dark/Rad Defender, Virtue- Member of Catch 'Em Crew
Nature Boy' - Elec/Ice Blaster, Virtue - Member of Young Phalanx
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance , since issue 4 got live i have read that the Integration power has been modified . My Integration power on my scrapper is currently slotted with 5 healing single origin enh and 1 endurance reduction enh . I have no way to know if this configuration is optimal without having to get on this forum and ask "expert players" who do extensive testing to get a rough answer. In my opinion i think it isnt a convenient way to inform players about enhancements and slotting .
[/ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fun is subjective. Something we've been trying to impart to Statesman for the last year. SOME of us have as much fun building a character in our minds and on paper as actually playing it.
Not saying everyone enjoys that. Some people just like to punch the bejeebus out of things. That's cool. I don't begrudge people their playstyle. Why begrudge us ours?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
For the people that just have to wring every last tenth of a percentage point of efficiency, I guess it boils down to creating the best character they can. It's fairly normal to want to create the most powerful character you're able to with the tools you're given. Levels of obsessiveness over just how far to take it may vary.
Myself, I like to know the numbers not necessarily to be completely optimal, but rather for things like flight speed enhancers for example. I'd be a wee bit irked if I just dropped 6 slots into flight and spent 180k+ influence on SO's, only to find out that it capped at 3 (or 4, whichever makes flight hit the speed cap). There's nothing that isn't player-published that says 'Hey, flight speed caps at 3 (or whatever) SO's. Don't put any more in.' Now I've wasted a bunch of influence and 2 or 3 slots that could've been used better in defenses or an attack.
It's not necessarily all about wringing mathematical perfection out of slotting and power choice. Sometimes it's just a matter of not being wasteful.
Wile E. Canuck.
We get emotionally attached to the characters that we have put countless hours in over months and months. Unfortunately, many of us react poorly to change (nobody likes change - especially if those changes are ongoing over many issues).
CuppaJo: On a side note, do you sleep or what? Seriously
Scrapper Slotting Basics
Brute Slotting Basics
To Cuppa and the Cryptic team:
I recently returned to CoH after a long absence. The reason I deactivated my account back then had nothing to do with any particular power not meeting my expectation, it wasn't because of a nerf, and it wasn't due to the quality of the game (well, not in a bad way). I just needed to sleep more.
I'm back now though, partially to see what you guys have been up to while I was away, partially because I miss the game. That's probably the best compliment I can pay you. So on behalf of the silent majority who are too busy enjoying the game to come here and tell you so, keep up the good work.
Actually, I'll just say that you guys do deserve our respect, as do other players who mutually treat others with respect. I personally appologize for any post that you may have felt didn't convey this toward Cryptic staff. Unfortunately I can only appologize on my own behalf.
Thanks again.
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I totally agree. As a person who recently wrote a post not too kindly wirtten...( yes I can admit it )... I would like to extend my apologies for any harsh words. I do believe that respect is greatly deserved.
Do I feel bad about venting?
No.
But as an adult, and having re-read some childish, disrespectful things that had come from my own fingertips, I can say shame on me.
I absolutely appreciate the care Cuppa put into wording her post. This game tends to bring out the Hero-loving, comic book reading kid in me. I maybe care a little too much for the Heroes I've created but that could only happen if the game was wonderful to begin with. To kind of mirror what a few other people have expressed, we would not be upset if we did not care. Take away the things we love and the kid in us throws a fit.
I am expecting one of those electric shocks from my keyboard any time now.
Being as good as I can now,
And Cuppa.. Girl... what are you doing posting this late in the a.m.? LOL