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I have seen some of the calculations required to get numbers and I have to say that my head a-sploded.
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Off topic.....
Hmm, me thinks Cuppa reads STRONG BAD!
http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail94.html
On topic....
Good thread Cuppa, and I, for one, would like to say thank you for the feedback!
FWIW, I'd never played an MMORPG before CoH, and I've tried a couple others since then (most recently World of Warcraft). Well, I'm still playing City of Heroes, and I'm not playing the other games! Y'all are still getting my $15/month, and it is things like the hard work and information from you, the Devs and the QA team (especially Software Quality Assurance, it isn't as easy as most people think!) provide for our entertainment dollar!
Since it probably isn't said enough, THANK YOU FOR PROVIDING ME WITH HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF ENTERTAINMENT! For example, exploring Boomtown for the first time last August (and falling off of a ledge into a group of purple clocks that killed 90% of the team, that was funny!), the Rularuu Invasion, New cooler Katana animations, running all over the city looking for history/exploration badges (hard to get those Peragrine Island ones safely at 25th level!), first seeing Striga Isle, Trick or Treating (oh that was fun! I GOT A ROCK!), getting the Freakshow disguise (I laughed so hard, the timer almost ran out on the power!), the Winter Lord attacking, the adrenaline rush of the surprise 10 minute mission (what? 10 minutes? We had fun trying!), the vital mission of taking a CD-R filled with music to an old contact, the thrill of finally hitting 50 and trying a Kheldian, most recently the new costumes, and so much other fun that I can't think of.
Sincerely,
The Software Quality Avenger
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CuppaJo said:
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The "roles" question is best addressed by Statesman - AFAIK scrappers dmg > Tanks. Tanks def/res > Scraps. Blasters = dmg via range. These are gross generalities.
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I started by PM'ing Statesman and his response was less than optimal. I know he's a busy guy, wife, job, company, comicbooks, the list goes on and on... I just wanted clairification. I know severl of my Tanker and Blaster friends do too.
Statesman said:
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Scrapper - takes out the boss while the Tanker holds him down...
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While I love ya Jack (in that paltonic, you're very cool kinda way) this just didn't answer my question. I don't know any scrapper over 12 that needs a Tanker to help him/her with a boss. Over 22-ish 2-3 bosses can be handels via kiting (sometimes without). And, Blaster + Tanker will always take bosses down far faster than Scrappers.
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This is actually a very sad way to balance. It reeks of EQ if he responds with that. When I form teams I see heros not ATs. Id like to think that I can grab whoever is available to play and just do a mission or TF. My SG is typically a late nite crew.
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For instance , since issue 4 got live i have read that the Integration power has been modified . My Integration power on my scrapper is currently slotted with 5 healing single origin enh and 1 endurance reduction enh . I have no way to know if this configuration is optimal without having to get on this forum and ask "expert players" who do extensive testing to get a rough answer. In my opinion i think it isnt a convenient way to inform players about enhancements and slotting .
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Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
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Ill answer that by saying that numbers are even more important now with PvP because there is a real competition with players now ( I will do some fights in PvP ) and it is obvious that the "optimal" build will get an edge and that victory or defeat "could" in the end depend upon the slotting of single little Single Origin Enh . It really is that simple . You may not agree with all that but for someone who think his rating is important , it is important . Numbers indeed are important .
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
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THAT may be one of the most intelligent and obvious questions I've ever seen. As a player who takes his flaws along with his uberness in some cases (my phantom army is awesome, but without them I'm little more than a squishy in a big body), I could care less about building the perfect character or being perfect at everything.
But, I CAN see where others are coming from when they want things to be perfect. They want to emulate a certain type of hero, and if perfection is a requisite part of their character's design, then it can be disconcerting to have that affect your gameplay.
I agree, though, that the fun in the game (for me, IMHO) is just enjoying the missions, taking in the scenery, fighting bad guys, teaming up and kicking butt.
And, as an aside to CuppaJo, all I can say is I'm shocked and outraged that anyone would threaten you guys, even if the intention is not malicious. This is, after all, a GAME, folks. Not real. Entertainment. Perhaps those who have been that way need to step back from the "online world" of computer gaming and take a look at themselves. This is not a slam against those who disagree with statements the devs make, but rather a slam against those who believe that hurling insults, threats and profanities against the devs are perfectly OK. That it helps things. That it makes people take them seriously.
God bless you for your work. I don't envy your job at times, but I wholeheartedly respect everything you guys do. Next time you're in Chicago, steak dinner is on me! ;-)
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The answer...?
Take two players who both have the same AT and power selections.
Slot 1 for concept.
Slot the other for effectiveness.
Which one enjoys the game more?
Seriously...? This is just a hypothetical, because enjoyment is relative.
But, if BOTH are effectively slotted for the powers they CHOOSE, both can enjoy the game without feeling disappointed when the player next to you stays healthy longer and does more damage.
The BIGGEST benefit of posting numbers is that, when dev's introduce major changes, ...
a.) potentials for abuse can be more easily noticed.
b.) potentials for bugs can be easily identified.
c.) players can follow the logic of the dev's and, hopefully, flame less.
d.) players can feel more confidant in their power & slotting choices.
e.) If done right, game balance can be tracked by both dev & player.
This is a post I made over on my supergroup forum that I think portrays my feelings well enough. In the original post I was talking about the state of the boards just before ish 4 hit. I was really quite upset..and I usually don't post when I'm that pissy..but I had to vent. 
On, a side note..I've been in QA for about 2 years now. As a tester and a lead for Vivendi and Disney. It makes me sad and happy at the same time that Cuppa posted this. Sad, because she feels she has to, that the devs thing our opinion of them is so low and happy because it just proves my point. Most developers would either ignore it or give the equivilent of "F you" to the community
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This is made doubly frusterating for me, because..this is what I do for a living. Developers give me stuff that they think works, or they are trying something...and I check it. I make sure it is working as intended. Sure, some of it I might not like, I might think its a stupid change..but ya know what? Unless I can come up with concrete reasons beyond "its a stupid change" My opinion matters very little. I didnt create the game, I'm here to make sure that when the user get's it into their hot little hands that it's fun, makes sense and works as expected.
The whole point of the Test server is what I do, every day. I make sure the stuff works like the developers want it to work. I've worked with alot of developers and I've played alot of developers games and hands down Cryptic is some of the best developers out there. They do more for the people playing their game then alot of developers do, much less even give a second thought to. That's not just "fanboy" opinion..that's because I [censored]ing know it.
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Ill answer that by saying that numbers are even more important now with PvP because there is a real competition with players now ( I will do some fights in PvP ) and it is obvious that the "optimal" build will get an edge and that victory or defeat "could" in the end depend upon the slotting of single little Single Origin Enh . It really is that simple . You may not agree with all that but for someone who think his rating is important , it is important . Numbers indeed are important .
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Agreed. In a RPG, no matter how good my reaction time or aim is, I'm never any better than my character (unlike a game like UT or Quake). So an optimal build is a way of minimizing that RPG "interference."
IMHO, obsession with an optimized build means you're playing the wrong kind of game. 
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Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I like to know how a system works so that I can develope my character the way I want, whether others consider is 'optimal' or not. I'm not satisfied with finding out from other players that 4 of my 6 slots and enh's are being wasted on a particulare power. I'm not a min/maxer but a little more info certainly wouldn't hurt my enjoyment.
Cuppa,
Thanks for writing to everyone. I think the team does a very, very good job of being in touch with the players and fanbase, and of being responsive while 1) keeping an impressively complex program running 24/7, and 2) running a company.
It's a lot worse out there with other games and companies (Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Blizzard's offerings), so I'm psyched to have the level of feedback we get. To others who feel there are elements lacking, there's room to agree or discuss - but the feeling here is that both on a comparative basis and on an absolute basis, COH does a fine job of listening, showing it listens, and talking with the players.
So, thank you.
cheers,
Radium Jane.
Ps. It's nice to have a reminder that you all love the game as much as we do. = )
It is critical that you pay attention at this time.
Gaming in Limited Times
Guide to Plant/Ice Doms
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In I3, I had a definitely sub-optimal regen build that was fun.
In I4, sub-optimal appears to no longer be sustainable.
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::Raises her hand:: Yo
I was having fun with my suboptimal suck-o-matic build. Now my build doesn't appear to be viable. Just to play my MA/regen I have to resort to using cheap tricks, and plenty of inspirations. I didn't feel overpowered before the change, and I was having fun sucking.
Hell.. I got my as smacked down by seven crey minions only two levels above me(and evens at one point, but that was a foolish underestimation of their damage potential).
Now? I find myself struggling on rugged. I survive, but I struggle. Even a measly +1 freakshow LT will eat my lunch if I am not carefull. I resort to trickry and a "slight" explotation(not a true exploit, but I think of it as such) of my abilty to knockback to my great advantage.
At least I have only died once. Exploits and lame tricks aside, I am to big of a chicken to die. That once came from mobs I couldn't see. I only saw three freakshow. THis time 7 +1 minions did me in. Somewhere around... seven to ten seconds after the additional mobs showed up to greet me.
Should have ran. ::Sigh:: 
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...I'd like to think this community is better then that, but it isn't. I'm sure that if Jack Emmert's house burned down tomorrow people would be stating on the boards that it "served him right for the regen nerfs" or something idiotic like that...
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Although I know you were refering to the 'nutcases' specifically, I just want to add that this is one of the very best communities I've been involved with online, and based on some other poster's comments, it outshines many of the other MMO's.
In short, I take issue with your use of the word community at the begining of this quoted statement,. You are really refering to a vocal minority, and not the community at large.
i apologize for all the stupid remarks i made. i know u devs work hard at this and.. well.. for what it's worth i apologize. keep up the great work!
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I completely agree that the regen test data should have been clarified that it was not the only test data.
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Were you told why only the most extremely mob-effective (Spines) build results were made public but results for the Martial Arts primary and other Scrapper primaries have been kept secret? Letting us know that information would have stopped A GREAT DEAL of grief. Keeping it secret only invites speculation. Why keep it secret? What don't they want us to know? Why did they only publish the data from a very suspiciously mob-effective (Spines) specific build? What don't they want us to know?
No, I'm not paranoid, I work in the natural sciences--open-ness in publication is expected. Secrecy is greatly distrusted. The attitude enters other parts of my life.
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CuppaJo said:
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The "roles" question is best addressed by Statesman - AFAIK scrappers dmg > Tanks. Tanks def/res > Scraps. Blasters = dmg via range. These are gross generalities.
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I started by PM'ing Statesman and his response was less than optimal. I know he's a busy guy, wife, job, company, comicbooks, the list goes on and on... I just wanted clairification. I know severl of my Tanker and Blaster friends do too.
Statesman said:
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Scrapper - takes out the boss while the Tanker holds him down...
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While I love ya Jack (in that paltonic, you're very cool kinda way) this just didn't answer my question. I don't know any scrapper over 12 that needs a Tanker to help him/her with a boss. Over 22-ish 2-3 bosses can be handels via kiting (sometimes without). And, Blaster + Tanker will always take bosses down far faster than Scrappers.
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This is actually a very sad way to balance. It reeks of EQ if he responds with that. When I form teams I see heros not ATs. Id like to think that I can grab whoever is available to play and just do a mission or TF. My SG is typically a late nite crew.
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Not very heroic either is it? beating up on someone while a big guy holds him down.
That's not heroic... that's thuggery.
Tanker: Powerful, plodding powerhouse. The first line of defense for a team. Not a front line fighter..... The tanker IS THE FRONT LINE.
Scrapper: Prescise, lethal, fast. Incarnate warrior who can take down or disable foes with dispatch. Master of the decappatack.
Controller: Master of his environment. Specializes in confusion, misdirection and strategic control over large areas.
Defender: Force multipier and enabler posessing a fair amount of ranged support. The tanker may protect, the controller may control but the defender puts things back together when they go wrong.
Blaster: Overwhelming Ranged force. Irresistable and vulnerable at once. Master of mass destruction, lacking the prescision and combat prowess of the scrapper while maintaining a more versatile arsenal of attacks.
That's the way things SHOULD be.
Not you hold him down while I give him a wedgie.
Half the problems here on the boards(and boards in general) are on assumptions.
2 Examples
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Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
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Assumption is that the reason that people want the numbers is for "Optimal" builds. I have looked up numbers for theme builds.
For example a blaster that is super high damage little defense(pretty much what they are now) + max range, but can teleport quickly out of danger. Had no idea if I was/could max slotting damage and range, what return on Interrupt I was getting, etc. Was not an optimal build, did it for fun.
Same with an early empathy defender, did not know what he needed to heal, but without knowing base etc. did not know if what I was slotting was overkill(it was, found some numbers and respeced later) Yes many are looking for Optimal, but many are just looking because they know it is screwed up and don't want to mess it up again or to max a theme out even though it isn't optimal but not use extra slots that don't do anything.
The other example was this...
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As I promised, here are the results from our latest Scrapper tests. Hope that we don't have the errors we did previously. We adjusted the builds and mobs faced based upon your input (thanks!). This includes the changes made to Regeneration and Dark Armor.
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Assumption was the emphasis was on "the" why not put the emphasis on "our latest" and now you have defeated his whole argument.
Hey both could be absolutely right on what people are trying to do or meant, but also may not be.
Why I never get annoyed with bold and emotes. Those caps still tend to when an exclamation point will do the trick.
Also my third example: Thinking it is personal, don't know the people I quoted that well on the board and just examples I noticed that I could look from a different angle. Didn't mean it that way and hope not taken that way.
Some are legends because of their posts, others just post becoming legends in their own mind.
[i]I refuse to have Numina regen/recovery envy.
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...But, I CAN see where others are coming from when they want things to be perfect. They want to emulate a certain type of hero, and if perfection is a requisite part of their character's design, then it can be disconcerting to have that affect your gameplay.
....
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I found this statement generalizes those of us who would like more info on how powers and enh's work. I personally don't care if I ever have a 'perfect' character. Actually, having more info would probably induce me to have more varied builds, because I'd know I was only 15% from my resist or damage caps, for instance, rather than wondering if I was 2 enh's over. I could then make 'an informed decision' as to whether I could sacrifice that slot to increase my travel speed, or whatever.
Make sense?
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...But, I CAN see where others are coming from when they want things to be perfect. They want to emulate a certain type of hero, and if perfection is a requisite part of their character's design, then it can be disconcerting to have that affect your gameplay.
....
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I found this statement generalizes those of us who would like more info on how powers and enh's work. I personally don't care if I ever have a 'perfect' character. Actually, having more info would probably induce me to have more varied builds, because I'd know I was only 15% from my resist or damage caps, for instance, rather than wondering if I was 2 enh's over. I could then make 'an informed decision' as to whether I could sacrifice that slot to increase my travel speed, or whatever.
Make sense?
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Exactly. I haven't slavishly taken Tough/Weave on my Regen precisely because I knew that Stealth offered a decent defense buff only slightly less than Weave and offered as a level 6 power.
Information could lead to singular builds, but I don't think that it will.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Exactly. I haven't slavishly taken Tough/Weave on my Regen precisely because I knew that Stealth offered a decent defense buff only slightly less than Weave and offered as a level 6 power.
Information could lead to singular builds, but I don't think that it will.
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Yeah... exactly. I did decide to get Tough, though, when I realized it provides almost 4 times the resistance that Resilience does..... I was a little surprised by that, seeing as how the descriptions are similare (one says 'some resistance' while the other says 'slightly resistant').
I've got a big reason to publish numbers in some reasonable fashion... 3 respecs, plus the occasional freebie. 10 lvls of gimpness between respecs can really blow... leads to 'PL' calls.
PS. I still think DM acc is still borked somehow. 2 green SO's, soul drain, and I still miss...
PPS. I'm one of those to skip ToughWeave. Might have to go cookie cutter now. Rugged just got a lot dicier...
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There is one thing that I see consistantly happening.
I don't think it's an intentional thing, but it happens.
The Devs make a post about a change they think is nessesary. They seem to do this change with a Fun/risk/reward kinda logic.
Risk in all forms is the spice of life. But a LOT of people don't want a lot of risk. Some folks just want to get on, and beat some bad guys up for the fun of it(I know, something wrong with humanity here).
This seems to be the reason we see so much "Adjusting" to certain arch types. The Thing is, a LOT of us LIKE being a little over powered. A lot of us LIKE the rush of being able to herd large groups of mobs. Some of us LIKE the feeling of power when we can lock groups of mobs down.
The Devs seem to consistantly try to tell US what WE find fun.
I came to CoH becuase it was a combat centric game. Becuase it was something I could pick up and play right away with very little learning curve. It was a screen shot of a tank I think herding a few dozen mobs that got me hooked.
All the other MMORPG's I've tried out(6 at last count) you are more of a 1vs1 combat type. Or at most 3vs1.
You see, being able to go up against 20 minions and win is what I wanted.
In the early game it's 1-3vs1 is the norm. Skilled players can take on up to 5, but most don't till the teens. I expected my ability to handle mobs to raise as I lvled up. I figured if 3-5 in the 1-10 range was good, then at 40 I should be able to take on 40+ and at 50 75+.
Tanks and scrappers seem to be the only ones who follow this. I expected the Blasters/controllers/defenders to have powers that would blossom as they got higher in lvl so they too could take on large groups of mobs. Maybe not 75 or even 50, but I figured that in the 40's a defender should be able to take on 20-30 even con minons.
You see, we start the game feeling like someone's sidekick. We have the potential, but not the experience. As we progressed, I wanted to feel like I'd went from Robin to Batman to Superman.
This game is all about PERCEIVED power. If we don't FEEL powerfull, then we don't have as much fun.
All these "Adjustments" are making some of us feel like we're being lowered back down to side kick levels.
I still dont' see why the devs keep looking at the people who've rushed to the top, instead of the people still back at base camp 1, only 30% of the way up the mountain, and help THEM.
Even if you only brought them up a little, ANY love there would greatly improve the joy in the game for many people.
The devs keep looking at the AT's that are played the most. That lvl the fastest. That Die the least.
Why don'y they look at the AT's that are played the least, that lvl the slowest, that die the most. HELP them, instead of hindering others.
If you lift them up, once they are near the level of the rest, THEN you take down the tanks and scrappers.
You'll have a shorter trip then if you brought them ALLLL the way down to where the rest are now.
Ok. I gotta stop this rambling. In Short, help those who NEED it, those who DESPERATLY need help, not "Adjust" those who don't want it. It whould cause SO much less greif, and build SOO much love for the dev team.
Remember. This is a game. We're supposed to be haveing fun, not screaming in frustration.
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/signed
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Some of the players with the most passionate responses are also the ones who care the most about the game.
Being respectful to anyone is important, Devs included. I must say though, that over the past year it has seemed (I say 'seemed' not 'is') that the same level of respect is not always returned. And I don't mean that Devs are directly rude, but that they sometimes take what appears to be a condescending approach of You don't see the big picture, so you do not realize that what you are doing is not actually fun.
This ignores that some people spend almost as much time playing the game as a Dev spends working on it. It ignores that many players often are more current and aware of power changes(as a whole) than the Dev team sometimes appears to be. And it ignores the (I think) obvious problem of actually telling someone else that you know better than they do whether or not they are having fun.
There has also been much disillusionment over the Test server.
Folks spend hours and hours testing changes, give extensive feedback, and find widespread support of their findings, and then the changes go through to live as is. (Only to have the Devs find on Live the same issues that were reported by players on Test.)
There is much that goes into peoples behavior, and I think that the fluctuations in respect go both ways. It is just less subtle from the players side. 
If we cared less about the game being great, we would just quit, not criticize.
I would like to end with a thank you to you Cuppa for still being an advocate for the community, even though we are so contentious. And one to the Dev team for making this game, which I have enjoyed greatly this past year+. You are obviouosly a talented team.
Now about SS&SJ...
-Gallant
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You know, I read through nearly all these posts, and Gallant's by far made the most sense to me. Thanks Gallant for an excellent response (without being too fanboyish like most here) that speaks for many players frustrated with current events.
I am OFFICIALLY making a complaint here.
If you agree with the Devs you can insult, belittle and slander as you want.
If you disagree you get editted.
How about editting some of these personal attacks on ME?
EULA and TOS.
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The BIGGEST benefit of posting numbers is that, when dev's introduce major changes, ...
a.) potentials for abuse can be more easily noticed.
b.) potentials for bugs can be easily identified.
c.) players can follow the logic of the dev's and, hopefully, flame less.
d.) players can feel more confidant in their power & slotting choices.
e.) If done right, game balance can be tracked by both dev & player.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I understand your argument, this is something I don't exactly agree with. Because you want to start to introduce the numbers into the mix, people start seeing their characters as less of a "character" and more of a jumble of statistics and figures. It becomes less about creating a character you enjoy and more about being worried about how your character performs without that extra .08 of damage.
In the end, to me at least, I think the more "numbers" and "statistics" you have available to you, the greater the risk of cheapening the game and the more destructive it becomes to the enjoyment of the game.
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The thought of changes to it make me feel all squicky inside.
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Ya know, Cuppa said all that and all I heard was "squicky"
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Question, do you enjoy spending money on something that has little or no use to you?
While I know influence and power slots and enhancement slots aren't money, they're comparable things- currency you work to earn and can be "spent" to your benefit.
So the parallel is similar- people don't want to spend their hard-earned currency on something that gives them marginal (or nonexistant) benefit, especially when there's alternatives that are far superior.
Also, we're heros- We want to feel powerful. Its part of the game's theme.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now, don't get me wrong. I fully agree with the fact that people shouldn't end up wasting influence on enhancements that will not affect their hero's powers thanks to caps. The Dev's SHOULD have some sort of way of indicating to the player that yes, adding another Flight Speed SO (for example) won't increase your flight speed anymore thanks to the cap.
What I don't understand, for lack of a better term, is peoples desire to Min/Max. To wring every last ounce of power out of their characters that they can. I'm not saying it's a wrong playstyle, and if thats what you enjoy, that fine. But I just don't understand HOW people find that fun.
I guess what it boils down to is that while everyone else seems to want to be the Supermans or Galactus's of the world, I'm content with being the Spider-Mans or Ambush Bugs of the world.
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Just because the devs didn't say what you want to hear doesn't mean they didn't show you respect. And with the level of insults, conspiracy theories, and outright lies the vocal minority has provided in the last few weeks, it's you that needs to earn respect at this time.
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Speaking of the use of hyperbole and hysteria to convince people to not listen to what you're saying... You're mirroring what you're complaining about to a "T", while also exaggerating its occurrence.
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As someone who actually tried to read and constructively contribute to the Regen changes thread, I can assure you this is not hyperbole. After reading through enough insults, conspiracy theories and outright lies I gave up.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.