[ QUOTE ]
The "numbers" issue. I know there is a post around here somewhere where a dev says something about not providing #'s because we don't want it to be "City of Math" - I have seen some of the calculations required to get numbers and I have to say that my head a-sploded. Plus there is the maintenance of such a list - and well, you have seen how often the manual gets updated. (note on that - it is coming this month with I4 included) So I would also state that there are some resource constraints in that area. I doubt this will change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, it's not city of math... it doesn't have to be. In fact, for diagnostic purposes, why don't they just add a slash command so players don't have to do backflips to figure out the stats? I mean the client software has the math... (or the server does) You don't have to give the formula-- because it might change... but the numbers sure would be helpful at times... especially testing wise.
Example:
I hear Energy Torrent has been changed, so after the patch I type a command:
/math Energy Torrent
<chat response>
Query for "Energy Torrent"
Classification: ranged attack power
Base damage X energy Y smashing with current enhancements X1 energy Y1 smashing.
Base accuracy X% with enhancements Y%.
Base endurance cost X with enhancements Y.
Base range X with enhancements Y.
Base recharge time X seconds, with enhancements Y seconds.
For a non attack power:
/math Fire Shield
<chat response>
Query for "Fire Shield"
Classification: Personal Defense Power
Base Damage Resistance X% smashing Y% lethal with enhancements X1% smashing Y1% lethal
Base endurance drain rate X/per second with enhancements Y/per second.
Base recharge time: <continuous toggle> X second recycle. with enhancements Y second recycle.
Now, IRL I do object oriented programming , I would be surprised as HECK if powers weren't objects, and that the devs didn't have something queryable in them already so they can internally know what the heck a power is doing.
This would be a useful tool and it would stop all the guessing-- nobody who doesn't care about the math has to look at it... But someone sure as heck could be on test and go, "jeez, I sure am missing a lot!" Let me check what the power says... /math "Hmmm, its says I'm SUPPOSED to have 90% accuracy" so why am I missing five out of ten times?
I know numbers scare people, but sometimes I think its really nice to have truly informed opinions, and to be able to make informed decisions -- especially where things like enhancements are concerned.
If I put 3 recharge reducers in a power and SEE that the recharge is Y seconds... It's really NICE to know when I put a 4th in there that the recharge has a floor to it, and that the enhancement isn't helping.
That's not information overload, that's just playing nice with the players who care to know with certainty what's going on. Otherwise, you just guess, and guessing leads to wild surmise and surmise leads to people getting torqued off...
[ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
For the first ten levels, it doesn't make much of a difference. After that, and in increasing amounts, enhancement slots are my reward for grinding all the way to the next level. It may take an hour with my fire tank, or 4 hours with my grav controller, but those enhancement slots are my reward for that time. To misuse that reward because of lack of information (damage resistance maximum percentages for example) is upsetting.
In I3, I had a definitely sub-optimal regen build that was fun.
In I4, sub-optimal appears to no longer be sustainable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen, I designed a DM/regen as a concept character designed to be perfectly adequate without either hasten or stamina. Post issue 4, I've had to respec hasten in and am most of the way to getting stamina. The problem is that changes like this restrict rather than encouraging diversity as now most DM/regen scappers will look very similar, whereas before you had a fair amount of choice how you built them. 'Flavour' powers are just not an option any more.
Toxic Texan 35 DM/regen Infinity
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
I'd like to third (or 5th, whatever) the desire for more published numbers. I do things by concept, most of the time, but also get a bit of a quiver up my spine when I respec a toon and can't be sure if I'm not messing it up for a second time. Luckily, my poor, very messed up Katana/Regen scrapper turned out great with the recent free respec. Thanks for that!
:-)
Adam Seven, MA/Regen, Lvl50
Warboy, AR/Energy, Lvl50
Sammy Sorrow, Dark/Energy, lvl44
Cariosus, DB/Will Brute, Lvl50
Myriad, Mercs/Traps, Lvl 42
So many others...
"From the cradle bars
comes a beckoning voice
it sends you spinning
you have no choice...... "
as a long time web monkey myself, thank you cuppa for working so hard with the COH players.
As a word to the angry players, relax. slow down before you vent. people get stung easy. try hard to not get upset so fast. mistakes will be made by the devs. give them a break. they are not out to get you.
eletronic communication is an art. try to be kind to others because it is very easy to come off the wrong way. when someone does come off the wrong way, try to not let it get to you, tone is very difficult to write. There is a reason why there are so few truely awesome novels coming out every year.
-k
Great Post! Now you made me feel bad for worrying about the Regen changes. Damn you and all your logic-n-stuff. 
Scrapper Slotting Basics
Brute Slotting Basics
[ QUOTE ]
No recent response to an issue -
Many times, if you do not see a response from the dev team about an issue then either investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have been made yet or the dev team is satisfied with the issue as it is. I want to stress that even though this may be the case, they are always reading your feedback and taking it into consideration.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to add something to this:
Internet time is not human time.
By the time I find out something is going on, as a player who spends too much time on the forums, there's already a 200-post thread on the topic, maybe more. If you're a developer, and you get stuck in a 2-hour meeting, you could have a THOUSAND POST THREAD by the time you get back.
So people on the forums go "What the beFriend? We have this huge thread and have gotten no responses from anyone on it!" And the thread started 36 hours ago.
Hell, it takes me a week of advance notice to get my CAR fixed.
Fixing things right takes time.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
There is one thing that I see consistantly happening.
I don't think it's an intentional thing, but it happens.
The Devs make a post about a change they think is nessesary. They seem to do this change with a Fun/risk/reward kinda logic.
Risk in all forms is the spice of life. But a LOT of people don't want a lot of risk. Some folks just want to get on, and beat some bad guys up for the fun of it(I know, something wrong with humanity here).
This seems to be the reason we see so much "Adjusting" to certain arch types. The Thing is, a LOT of us LIKE being a little over powered. A lot of us LIKE the rush of being able to herd large groups of mobs. Some of us LIKE the feeling of power when we can lock groups of mobs down.
The Devs seem to consistantly try to tell US what WE find fun.
I came to CoH becuase it was a combat centric game. Becuase it was something I could pick up and play right away with very little learning curve. It was a screen shot of a tank I think herding a few dozen mobs that got me hooked.
All the other MMORPG's I've tried out(6 at last count) you are more of a 1vs1 combat type. Or at most 3vs1.
You see, being able to go up against 20 minions and win is what I wanted.
In the early game it's 1-3vs1 is the norm. Skilled players can take on up to 5, but most don't till the teens. I expected my ability to handle mobs to raise as I lvled up. I figured if 3-5 in the 1-10 range was good, then at 40 I should be able to take on 40+ and at 50 75+.
Tanks and scrappers seem to be the only ones who follow this. I expected the Blasters/controllers/defenders to have powers that would blossom as they got higher in lvl so they too could take on large groups of mobs. Maybe not 75 or even 50, but I figured that in the 40's a defender should be able to take on 20-30 even con minons.
You see, we start the game feeling like someone's sidekick. We have the potential, but not the experience. As we progressed, I wanted to feel like I'd went from Robin to Batman to Superman.
This game is all about PERCEIVED power. If we don't FEEL powerfull, then we don't have as much fun.
All these "Adjustments" are making some of us feel like we're being lowered back down to side kick levels.
I still dont' see why the devs keep looking at the people who've rushed to the top, instead of the people still back at base camp 1, only 30% of the way up the mountain, and help THEM.
Even if you only brought them up a little, ANY love there would greatly improve the joy in the game for many people.
The devs keep looking at the AT's that are played the most. That lvl the fastest. That Die the least.
Why don'y they look at the AT's that are played the least, that lvl the slowest, that die the most. HELP them, instead of hindering others.
If you lift them up, once they are near the level of the rest, THEN you take down the tanks and scrappers.
You'll have a shorter trip then if you brought them ALLLL the way down to where the rest are now.
Ok. I gotta stop this rambling. In Short, help those who NEED it, those who DESPERATLY need help, not "Adjust" those who don't want it. It whould cause SO much less greif, and build SOO much love for the dev team.
Remember. This is a game. We're supposed to be haveing fun, not screaming in frustration.
[ QUOTE ]
The "numbers" issue. I know there is a post around here somewhere where a dev says something about not providing #'s because we don't want it to be "City of Math" - I have seen some of the calculations required to get numbers and I have to say that my head a-sploded. Plus there is the maintenance of such a list - and well, you have seen how often the manual gets updated. (note on that - it is coming this month with I4 included) So I would also state that there are some resource constraints in that area. I doubt this will change.
[/ QUOTE ]
A couple of things here. First of all, I will be breathing a sigh of relief along with ten thousand others when the updated manual is released. I understand the cost of keeping it up to date is prohibitive.
However, I do think the information on changes might be connected better with the existing manual. At the moment you can download the original game manual and view "recent updates" going back to March, but the City of Heroes website currently has no information on changes between the game's release and this past March. As a result, I have seen arguments recently where an Inv tank defended his choice not to take Unyielding because he didn't like being rooted (changed in January) and another player called Adrenelin Boost a bad power because of the Disorient (removed I don't know when).
Would it be possible to have all changes since the manual's release made into a text file that we could download from the website and keep up-to-date? Or if there already is one there, could you put a link to it next to the link for downloading the manual? If the new manual is going to be up-to-date as of I4 release, you could start a fresh file listing changes since then and add to it until the next manual update. That would keep most of us happy.
If as you said there are "some resource constraints" in that area, I urge you and others to see about having those constraints reduced a bit. Seriously. A few people have mentioned the importance of trust here and you've said you and the devs do not try to mislead your customers. This is true, but having an inaccurate manual makes it easy to believe that you do. If players can't rely on the game information you release and have to use Flaming Troll Boy's Guide to How Powers Actually Work, they are more likely to believe Flaming Troll Boy when he starts a war with you over a change of some sort and says that you are lying about what the change will actually do. From a player's point of view, Flaming Troll Boy was honest with them and you weren't.
Again, I'm not saying you don't post changes properly, but that the changes become difficult to find out about once they get bumped down the list of recent changes and eventually get removed. If you can fix this, it will be better for all of us.
Lastly, as I said to Statesman the other day, keep up the good work.
One more thing...proactive communication can help a lot.
Regenners had been through our nerf war in I3, had a result that everyone was pleased with, then things were silently changed on us in mid I3 (I'll take their word that it was never meant to be live, but we should have been told that the mistake was made and being fixed rather than having to notice it ourselves). We were told that Regen was where the devs wanted it to be. Then I4 hit the test servers, small line about enhancements. Thus the questions--what got changed? How much. Then answers--the effectiveness of enhancements has dropped by FIFTY PERCENT?!?!? based on our calculations. We were surprised and left in the dark a long time.
At whatever point the devs realized that changes needed being done to regen, a discussion should have started THEN. There would have been time to help with crafting solutions (many of us agreed that perma-MoG was a problem but disagree with the sledgehammer solution). Even if nothing changed, we'd have had a better idea of why, and we wouldn't have been surprised.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
You know mildly off subject but when will they make the sequal:
Gone with the Joe! Cuppa Meets with Tom Cruise
I want more action, more drama! I want scandal and scantily clad women running all over!
Oh and midgets there better be midgets. Darn it we need plot!
Ummm ... yeah I'm bored and needed to add a little humor 
CuppaJo said:
[ QUOTE ]
The "roles" question is best addressed by Statesman - AFAIK scrappers dmg > Tanks. Tanks def/res > Scraps. Blasters = dmg via range. These are gross generalities.
[/ QUOTE ]
I started by PM'ing Statesman and his response was less than optimal. I know he's a busy guy, wife, job, company, comicbooks, the list goes on and on... I just wanted clairification. I know severl of my Tanker and Blaster friends do too.
Statesman said:
[ QUOTE ]
Scrapper - takes out the boss while the Tanker holds him down...
[/ QUOTE ]
While I love ya Jack (in that paltonic, you're very cool kinda way) this just didn't answer my question. I don't know any scrapper over 12 that needs a Tanker to help him/her with a boss. Over 22-ish 2-3 bosses can be handels via kiting (sometimes without). And, Blaster + Tanker will always take bosses down far faster than Scrappers.
I'm among the many that find optimizing fun. RPG's have always been about the exceptional amount of items and organizing the most optimal arrangement of stuff.
RPg's tend to attract the same audience as the micro-management games like city builders, resource management games, and god games, so they've been accustomed to having tight control over every little aspect of the game.
It caters to the OCD-ness of some of us.
For me, it's irritating to know that some of my powers are overslotted and could be tweaked more, but not know which or how much.
Just a point of view from the othe side of the fence.
~Tri
The "numbers" issue. I know there is a post around here somewhere where a dev says something about not providing #'s because we don't want it to be "City of Math" - I have seen some of the calculations required to get numbers and I have to say that my head a-sploded. Plus there is the maintenance of such a list - and well, you have seen how often the manual gets updated. (note on that - it is coming this month with I4 included) So I would also state that there are some resource constraints in that area. I doubt this will change.
This has probably been said often in this thread by now, but the real issue here is that people can't tell if their enhancers are doing any good.
There has to be a middle ground between zero information and Death By Math. If the confirmation box for slotting an enhancer said, for each quality affected by the enhancer (taking into account HOs and the like) "You will go from X% of maximum to Y% of maximum", it would be better than nothing.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
[ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because ultimately... what else is there for most people who play. We're all limited by time. Many want that time to be as optimal as possible.
Is it *more* fun to finish a task force in 6 hours... or 3? Only you can be the judge of that, but I'll take the three hours anyday.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Cuppa for the post, But I am sorry any heavy negative comments from PAYING customers does contain positive learning for your dev crew.
1. We pay for this!
2. The whole concept behind a super hero game is to make powerful heroes, so if a person finds their much loved been weaken or the rewards being reduce (sewers and Karens). Of course we/I get pissed (see 1.).
3. It is an intentional issue, many people feel that the "reaching balance thru reduction" results in weaken a much loved character. How about "reaching balance thru improvement", so our loved Heroes get more powerful! I love it when I played with the retired Dark Iron on champion as a Regen/DM at 50 he rocked, kicked everything, much enjoyment.
4. Cuppa if you are concerned with Enjoyment, maybe think about 3. ???
Adults behaving like children? Adults paying out good cash and in love with their created hero maybe!!
Peace
[/ QUOTE ]
Even though your post is negative and somewhat passionate, it's still not rude or 'childish' like the posts Cupps pointed out.
A paying customer who says 'You suck!' doesn't do anyone any good.
Thanks Cuppa! Hopefully your post will encourage people to be a little more respectful of others, especially the devs.
Of course, I think we all know what the problem is.
On a more serious note, I respect the changes the devs make - even if it does make me revert my ma/sr scrapper to pre-Issue 2 days. The problem is 1.) people are not willing to admit that this or that powerset is more powerful than it should be and 2.) as soon as a power set becomes "FoTM", all the people in #1 flock to it thereby making future dev modifications difficult.
Thanks devs for Issue 4, as a return customer (I've been gone for the last 4 months, EQII and whatnot) it is exactly what you needed to bring me back.
I've been thinking about the whole "Show the Numbers", "Don't show the Numbers" dilema that seems to have reared its head in this thread, and it got me thinking.
The dev's don't like numbers, but players want to know if they hit the maximum level of benefit from their powers. Have the dev's considered something really simple, like maybe a bar that fills up under each power?
So for example, a blaster could have a bar under one of their attack powers that fills up as they add enhancements. There could be a little button marked "build up" next to this bar to show how much more effectiveness is added to the power when buildup is used.
Any time a cap for a power is in place, just put a bar under it that fills up as enhancments and slots are put in. Then when it's full, just have it read "Max Power!" or some other suitable Simpsons reference.
Where this would get a little sticky is when powers stack, such as defenses/resists for a tanker. But really, all you need is a little subscreen that lists all their defenses/resists. A happy, and simple bar graph.
I would LOVE something like this. It is numberless, but it would offer enough info to both the casual and hardcore gamer to get the most out of their character. And I think it'd be fun, "Just one more slot and I'll be Max Power!"
[ QUOTE ]
The "roles" question is best addressed by Statesman - AFAIK scrappers dmg > Tanks. Tanks def/res > Scraps. Blasters = dmg via range. These are gross generalities.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's actually one of the things that's been driving us blasters completely up the wall (for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the perception that range is proportionally safer than melee), as I'm sure you've noticed in our corner of the forum! (don't worry, we'll be patient, we just wanna make sure no one forgets.. well, and convince those that think we're death-machines or something!)
Still, you guys have done quite a bit. Between things like the test threads and the more recent patch explanations, I really don't see how anyone could say the devs aren't listening...
[ QUOTE ]
I completely changed my attitude on Statesman and the entire team.
This is Damage Control.
Period.
A ton of players have quit and so Cuppajo (bless her heart) is worried. She posts this now we all love the Devs again.
...
[/ QUOTE ]
Here I was taking it as a reprimand and reminder to posters to be more civil.....
[ QUOTE ]
Something I've always wondered...
Why do people feel the need that they *have* to be "Optimal" to have fun? Why does everything have to boil down to the numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
THAT may be one of the most intelligent and obvious questions I've ever seen. As a player who takes his flaws along with his uberness in some cases (my phantom army is awesome, but without them I'm little more than a squishy in a big body), I could care less about building the perfect character or being perfect at everything.
But, I CAN see where others are coming from when they want things to be perfect. They want to emulate a certain type of hero, and if perfection is a requisite part of their character's design, then it can be disconcerting to have that affect your gameplay.
I agree, though, that the fun in the game (for me, IMHO) is just enjoying the missions, taking in the scenery, fighting bad guys, teaming up and kicking butt.
And, as an aside to CuppaJo, all I can say is I'm shocked and outraged that anyone would threaten you guys, even if the intention is not malicious. This is, after all, a GAME, folks. Not real. Entertainment. Perhaps those who have been that way need to step back from the "online world" of computer gaming and take a look at themselves. This is not a slam against those who disagree with statements the devs make, but rather a slam against those who believe that hurling insults, threats and profanities against the devs are perfectly OK. That it helps things. That it makes people take them seriously.
God bless you for your work. I don't envy your job at times, but I wholeheartedly respect everything you guys do. Next time you're in Chicago, steak dinner is on me! ;-)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A ton of players have quit and so Cuppajo (bless her heart) is worried.
[/ QUOTE ]
A ton have quit? Just how many is that? Is there proof? I know of absolutely no one that has actually quit over any changes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Judging from the server loads the past couple of nights (in an admittedly non-scientific way, of course) I'd say the opposite is true.
But then again, if 10 people quit and they weighted 200 pounds each, I guess that would constitute "a ton of people."
Cuppa -- please pass this along to Statesman, Positron and the rest of the hardworking folks at Cryptic -- lots of us actually appreciate what the Devs do. Please keep up the good work and please keep working to keep this the best MMO on the market.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some people are more docile than others. On the other hand, some people grow up and become revolutionaries, protestors, and radicals. Those people were taught (rightly) to question authority. And those people will speak loudly and tersely when it's justified. And the docile ones will think the loud ones are being immature.
And the authority under question can respond to protest in a number of ways. How Cryptic responds to the community, even when the community is rioting, is up to them. But don't cause the riot and then act all offended that you got one.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet there is a difference to protesting against a great injustice or starting a revolution against social intolerances, and sitting on a message board posting things like "OMG! YOU SUCK BECAUSE YOU NERFED SMOKE GRENADE! STATESMAN IS A LIAR AND A THIEF! CRYPTIC NERFED MY BABY! I'M QUITTING FOR WOW IF YOU DON'T ALLOW ME TO CHANGE MY EYECOLOR TO PEUCE!!!!!111"
People are not being asked not to voice their displeasure. Their being asked to voice their displeasure in a calm, rational manner.
Or, in case you need another example:
Your being asked to conduct yourself like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, not like Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.
[/ QUOTE ]
LiquidX, You nailed that one ..Exactly True IMO 
Recent Regen Test Results
You say they had other tests but didn't post them. Ok fine. But why did they post the one using a primary that would most skew the results if not to make any arguement by regen look worse? It did seem they posted results that only benifited the arguement to nerf regen. As for whether or not the community was heard on this I can take your word for that BUT real proof isn't in saying something after the fact its in reacting before it.
Official Threads, Posting, and You
Here's a problem the moderators seem to have with offical threads. You say post after testing. Fine. But you lock all other threads regarding the issue. So those who wish to discuss what is happening and how as a community it will affect us have no place to post. In locking all these threads it creates a very adversarial relationship between devs and the community. It also makes it feel like we are being herded to be ignored. Whether true or not the fact that feeling is created does not change. As it does come off very heavy handed.
As for comments about hating the changes well you are going to get those. Some people don't like change. Its a fact. That you have to not take personally.
Now as for how you edit the threads it also seems very ... well its not always done well. Often someone comes to start throwing fire and others respond and offer support for their points. The flame thrower continues and so on and so forth. Well eventually it gets cut from the thread. Often taking many good posts with it. A little more care with that would be helpful, but I do understand that the best way to avoid that is to respond to red names only.
Speaking on responses that get removed. Why do responces like:
Come on you know it's overpowered. I mean I retired my regener because of how great he is.
Not get pulled.
This kind of response did not come from testing it is a simple flame yet the regen thread was filled with them. Here's another issue since you mentioned it.
Regen was told it was "unparalleled" the devs word not ours. At that point it becomes extremely valid to point out that regen is not. And in doing so bring other ATs and powerset up that we feel can do the same things we are accused of doing. It is not "nerf-herding" to do so. It is trying to show the error in the "unparalleled" statement. Fair is fair when accused of being more powerful then others it is fair to point out that others are able to do what you can and in some cases better.
Anyway. All this is words. And nice as they are actions speak louder. The only action we saw was a release without response to question before hand. That does weigh a lot in my thoughts about this. I hope both sides can learn, and yes we seem to me to be on oppisite sides on this, from this and improve. Thanks for your efforts.