Havok_NA

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Its the defense. Vanguard spam -resist as part of their melee attacks, switching from regen to defense means you don't get hit and debuffed to high hell. Now if only Vanguard were in more than one arc MoG might actually have a real purpose...

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Better ways to deal with Vangaurd as a Regen scrapper then this

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Nice guide. Have a question:

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Controlling Tempo of a Fight

MT's pull first. There are exceptions to this rule but if you DON'T know when to break this rule then stick to it. MT pulls first. Taunt is a FIFO ability. So if you go in first it takes someone with significantly more Taunt Duration then you to take that aggro. If they are taking it from you then they should be MT and you should be OT.

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I'm wondering if you should mention different tanking (or team play) styles like steamrolling vs herding. I'd like to know your take on whether the tanker dictates the style (i.e. we're herding) since we set the pace or should we "go with the flow?"

When you mention "pull" here, it connotes something different than herding/steamrolling (i.e. you're pulling with Taunt), or is it that the MT is the first to run in?

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Great question.

First off pulling means pulling initial aggro. I'll clarify that above when I can. So when you've run in and gotten that initial aggro from a group of mobs you have 'pulled' that group.

Secondly on your question about Herding vs. Zerging (Steamrolling). Back in the day I would of told you to Herd however the efficiencies aren't the same now that you can't herd 1/2 an 8 man instanced zone at a go.

Now the most efficient way to take out mobs depends on your group. It's not just the players but also the characters they play. I tend to try a herd or two at the onset of grouping (especially with players I've never played with) if I feel comfortable that the team is efficient at it AND they enjoy it ... I'll continue to Herd.

If I find in those test pulls that they don't herd well or that they don't enjoy it I won't herd. Any efficiency gained by herding is instantly lost when players don't care to help herd.

CoH is a game designed for the Zerg. Get a bunch of bodies run in and obliterate. It works in any non-event encounter and works in most event encounters.

That's my thoughts on the two ... though I admit I still prefer to herd ... I think it takes better advantage of the small area AoE's such as Shadow Maul or Ripper that have these tiny cones of incredible dps if you know how to position for them.

Feel free to give constructive criticism

IMHO a good guide is a living document. Changes added as need be.

Havok's Guide to Tanking in CoH

Some mostly common sense stuff that I see being missed by some tanks I've observed.

[u]Havok's Guide to Tanking in CoH[u]

Well I may sound like a broken record but I'm exceedingly happy at being back in CoH. After spending sometime playing the game yet again I decided there was some value in putting out another series of guides. The first of these is one on simple basics of Tanking, next I hope to work on a guide to Inv/SS. In some ways I feel this is the least 'valuable' of my guides I'll be write. Why? Well in CoH Tanking in and of itself is very easy. Don't assume by that statement I think this is a bad thing. Indeed I think it's a good thing. CoH is designed to be an enjoyable game not a stressful one. As such there are very few areas in CoH where Tanks really need to be on their A-Game. It's in those instances where this guide is designed to help you refine your skills.

I'm going to follow a used information from a WoW tanking guide by Cardaxar and referencing several existing CoH guides. Their value is insurmountable. I wish I was half as good a tank as my guides make me sound but I'm not. Indeed I've seen several CoH tankers out there, Tic-Toc for example, that I consider a better CoH tank. Use the information that these tanks give you (I know I do )! Now that we have the preamble out of the way ... on to the guide!

Tanking ... what is it?

Juzam's Tao of Tanking for beginners is a wonderful starting point in understanding the purpose of a Tank. In many ways the purpose of a Tank and that of a Defender and Controller overlap.

In essence a Tank:
1) Controls the Aggro of the fight.
2) Absorbs damage to prevent the rest of the team from receiving the damage.
3) Controls the tempo of combat.

Now by now some of you advanced players may be saying 'Pshah like that's needed in CoH' and to an extent you are correct. However, I fall back on my original preamble and restate in the vast majority of the game those attributes are not really needed. It's in those rare instances that a Tank makes an encounter far easier that this guide is meant to help you. A prime example is the new Rikti War Zone Event. Tanks most assuredly make that entire encounter go easier. So now lets define some terms that most MMO vets are knowledgeable on.
<ul type="square">[*]Main Tank: To quote Cardaxar who said it very well: "Basically, the 'Tank' job, you will be directly responsible for the security of your group, through mitigation, positioning, and making sure to hold enough threat so that other players in your raid can do as much damage as they can without getting aggro. Truth must be said, sometimes this position is quite wanted by some people in order to gain a kind of "fame" or "respect". If you intend to do this job, leave that aside, and concentrate on doing your job the best that you can for your group." This job can occasionally be frustrating though in CoH is usually wrote with grandeous amounts of fun. Because of the simplistic aggro control system implemented, unlike any other MMO I've ever seen, you can actually enjoy this job if you simply follow basic principles. This job should almost always be taken by the Tank with the highest level of Taunt.
[*]Off Tank: This job in CoH often feels exceedingly boring. You are the second tank in the group and many have stated they feel they lack value as a second tank. You definitely don't lack value, but due to the aggro system put into CoH it often feels that way. Things that you can do as the off-tank to help your group:
1) Because you are free to roam as need be you can traverse the battle field more then the Main Tank. That means that if a Scrapper is stuck in Scrapper-Lock and is out of range of the healers AoE heal don't send the Healer to save him ... get that big ol' butt of yours over there and get aggro and let the Scrapper do his job ... kill! If you see the team just got attacked by a Patrol or a Hit Squad get back and take control of the situation until they can get beat down.
2) Play Back-Up Tank! Tanks do die. I know we find that reprehensible but it does happen. When that occurs you need to be on your A-Game to pick up the aggro and prevent a team wipe. When there are two tanks and less then 17 mobs there should NEVER be a group Wipe simply becuase the MT is dead.
3) Assist with DPS. You are no scrapper but lets face it you can do SOME DPS especially single target.[/list]
Controlling the Aggro of a Fight

Now that we have some basic terminology and hopefully you have looked at Juzam's guide I'm going to touch on Controlling the Aggro of a Fight. I want to point out one of the best guides on the forums Circeus's guide: "So you want to know about Taunt ...". I beg you please please read it. No really it's more valuable to you then this guide I'm writing right now. Go read how Taunt works. No It's not a guide on Taunt the power it's a discussion about Taunt the EFFECT.

Now that you have read it (if not ... SHAME) I want to point out a very critical piece of information that Circeus provides us on item #25 and #26. If you take these two items together you realize that if you are doing your job right you should NEVER lose aggro while keeping Taunt up UNLESS another Tank has Twice the Taunt duration of you (they may be overslotted for Taunt Duration) OR you are pulling mobs but not bothering to switch targets to keep everything constantly taunted (there may be a few exceptions to this such as Trip Mine though I have not personally tested TM and Taunt at this time). Taunt is a FIFO ability that is only overridden by someone with a Taunt Duration of twice the current Taunt holder.

Some additional things to remember ... Aura's may be auto hit Taunt's but their effectiveness is not guaranteed! It may seem like it most of the time but that simply is not true. When you start facing +3 or higher mobs you will begin to see some of your Aura's become insufficient in holding aggro. Taunt the power is an auto-hit against PvE mobs and it has a much more potent duration so it is a far better solution against +3 or better mobs but remember ... it only has a 5 target radius.

Absorbing Damage

Ok this is a no brainer right? Not really. We've all read wonderful guides on how to build tanks to mitigate damage (heck I wrote a few back in the old days myself). I'll not rehash how damage mitigation works instead you can read BuffyASummers guide: "Tanker Primary Information for Issue 7". What I will discuss though is something tanks almost completely forget about in CoH:

POSITIONING. Most baddies do single target damage and as such we can stand right next to the Empath and not worry. Unfortunately some opponents do targeted AoE's. When you stand next to your buddies while playing the role of MT you fail in this role IF they are taking unnecessary splash damage.

Sometimes this is unavoidable. If a mob is coded for melee combat, and can't locked down, he's going to come up and pound on you. For scrappers to do their job they will take splash damage. That's simply a reality. However, there is no need to drag said mob over to that Empath that's healing your big hairy butt, or itty bitty skinny butt, or stony butt, ... well you get the picture! Simply take a second and position yourself so your allies and friends don't take unnecessary splash damage. That may mean you don't get to fire some of your favorite melee attacks but sacrifice is what really forms the character of an MT. You sacrifice for you team so they don't have to. I truly believe this is the biggest thing that most CoH tanks do not do well enough. I'm as guilty of this as others. It's simple to do and can save allot of people if you take control and reposition the mob to prevent damage to your friends.

On second thought I will add one more mention on damage mitigation ... don't forget about your secondaries! They can mitigate damage too! If that Rikti Magus or crazy CoT Death Mage is flopping like a Pancake before breakfast he's not hitting anyone. If you have the abilities keep those opponents from attacking. Makes everyone's job easier!

Controlling Tempo of a Fight

MT's pull first. There are exceptions to this rule but if you DON'T know when to break this rule then stick to it. MT pulls first. Taunt is a FIFO ability. So if you go in first it takes someone with significantly more Taunt Duration then you to take that aggro. If they are taking it from you then they should be MT and you should be OT.

Beyond that Tempo should be set based on your Teams level of comfort. In teams that I run in I often find myself teamed with another tank. We know each other and are a well oiled machine. In some bases we'll split up simply because there is no threat of either of us dying. Members will follow who they want. In other missions we know when to follow the MT/OT format and when in the roll of OT I'll often hop the MT and bring more mobs back to him or take turns pulling with him to speed up the entire encounter. Keep in mind the comfort of your team though. If they don't feel comfortable with speedy fights then slow down. When you go too fast for them there will be deaths, unrest, and eventually pitch forks and torches. You determine how fast the team runs if you know what you are doing.

Watch the health and endurance of your team. I often fail to track the endo of my team but I've become a much better player at pointing out health and try and do my best on TS to announce when a player is low. If you see a player taking alot of damage in your group on a consistent basis then watch what they are doing. If you can find a complimentary method to get that aggro off them and on you. They may have a trick that is highly effective but extremely risky. If you can find a way to mitigate that risk it may benefit the whole team. If they are simply retarded though let them die ... protecting the weak is awesome ... protecting the terminally stupid is not.

Don't get fixated! I think that Juzam covered this exceedingly well. When you become fixated on a single target you are often letting outliers run free. You can get those buggers too!


[u]Addendum[u]

Below is a list of guides I personally recommend some were named above:

Juzam's Tao of Tanking for beginners
BuffyASummers guide: "Tanker Primary Information for Issue 7"
Circeus's guide: "So you want to know about Taunt ..."
Aett_Thorn's guide: "Taunt Myths Debunked"

I'll be working on one once I have my build fully tested. It takes me some time though

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Welcome back indeed!!!!

DDO finally bore you??? (I went there for a bit)

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Ended up never playing DDO ... I heard such horror tales out of beta that I went to WoW for a while and got into a high end raiding guild till I got burned out by the 5 hours a night 4 days a week raiding schedule. It interfered with the fam.

With my daughter gone for the summer I got bored and thought I'ld come back to CoH. I missed the people and the lack of stress from the game. CoH still has the best community I've ever seen before.

Bah :P

No debt we all had a ton of fun back in the day. Crazy thing is I hopped back in the game and I can barely remember how to move let alone use my powers ... lol ... It's been what almost 2 years?

Wow someone kept it alive! Awsome job.

BTW Hi to anyone still out there

As an FYI I'll no longer be fielding questions. As soon as I finish collecting some badges (TF badges) I will be retiring from CoH.

I want to thank all those who helped put this thread together and thank all those who helped answer questions when I wasn't around.

It has been a real pleasure being a part of this community.

Well folks I need to warn you there are HUGE nerfs coming down the pipe ... check the testing thread. I don't know how this will affect the builds

lol ... it's a ball. I love my tank ... to the extreme

Yeah trust me it's not a kiddie show. It's more akin to the old Batman cartoons then anything but is far more mature.

It deals with the interpersonal relationship of the heroes, the fear of humans against Superheroes (clearly stolen from Kingdom Come), and incredibly interwoven plots.

It's one of the best cartoon series I've ever watched.

CV ... I love the avatar that's just darn cool!

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Could I use flurry instead (instead of taking another pool) or was the better attack chain with AS?

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AS is vastly superior than Flurry in an attack chain. This is due to animation time. While your buddy is still throwing fists I'm already firing my second attack and AS is starting to recharge. Sure Flurry does more damage per attack but DPS favors AS in an attack chain.

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Also what are your thoughts on the fighting pool (Tough and Weave) and Acrobatics, would that help this build any?

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Currenlty the Fighting pool is useless. When I5 hits if the nerfs are pretty bad I'll do a re-evaluation and see if they need added in.

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How do I rate the posts (The stars) and such cause your posts are invaluable and have helped greatly with my build! 5 Stars to you!

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lol thanks a ton!

As info there are two ways to 'star' folks. One is to star their post. At the very bottom of this page there is a place for you to select the star rating and accept it. The other is to rate the player. If you click on my name you can view my profile. In my profile is a way to rank me (good or bad ).

Anyway hope that helps

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Is there some benefit to Swift I'm missing?

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Yes ... it makes you run around faster in missions when you don't have superspeed on because Invincibility triggers suppressino

It's a minor benefit though so you can grab Hurdle ... it's preference.

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Treating this build more as a 'Respec at 50th' guide, would it be better to get Fly for now and Respec it later to Hover? And also given that, would there then be a need for Super Speed to get about?


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Fly is fine till you can afford the slots for 6 slotted Hover. When you herd with Hover you'll know why!

If you want to take fly till you can afford to respec that's no biggie but as soon as you can switch to Hover and slot it up ... you'll quickly see why when you begin to herd.

Well I hope you've been watching the Justice League Unlimited series!

Man they have been doing some cool stuff with Supergirl and her clone

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Havok,

I just gotta say "Thank You!" for your guide. I have 2 Inv/SS tanks that I am using it with (one is tweaked toward superjump rather than flying).

I duoed with another Inv/SS tank of my same level and did a couple of missions in the Hollows the other nite. Most of the time he had to run away with like 10% health, while I was still pounding away at 75%. It was Awesome!!

Thanks again!

Blue Monolith - Inv/SS Tanker, Infinity (Hulk-like)
Commander Valor - Inv/SS Tanker, Virtue (Supes-like)

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I absolutely love to hear it ArcticStarr ... keep on tanking

Personally I'ld love to do an Inv/Stone guide some day. Something for fun

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I just read this whole thread. Certainly a nice build, but I wanted to point out a small problem here in your description for your next update. KO Blow doesn't have a disorient. It has a hold. The animation is the same as the disorient animation from Jab or Hand Clap, but the mob doesn't move.

It does stack with other holds which means that, as a tank, I can (and have!) encase AVs in blocks of ice. This is much fun.


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It's a disorient AND a hold

It's got both (that's why it's insanely expensive).

Back in they day when it sucked the arguement why it had such low damage wast that it had multiple Mez affects but the fact was players didn't take it because we didn't care about a power that had low damage but did a disorient and a hold.

Eventually the changed it by upping the damage significantly.

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All of that backstory is leading to this: This thread and the people that have commented on it have reaffirmed both my interest in CoH, and in playing my Tanker again. The advice has been great, the people friendly and helpful. I'm astonished by how much the game has changed since I left it, and gratified to see that there's such a fantastic group of people out there that want to help others. Thanks to _Havok_ and everyone else that's posted here.


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Wow I'm really glad you posted your story. Makes me glad that I posted this build for folks. Really glad to see it helped get you interested again

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Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.

This change will come in Expansion 5.

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Wow ... that's too bad!

I actually thought they were well built badguys. Really damn tuff but not overtly soo to any specific AT.

Every AT I tried against them had a challenge!

They were well built.

Ok you actually don't have a bad build there are some tweaks I would do.

1) I'ld yank the two extra RECRED out of Rage. You only need one.
2) Add one more slot into Hasten to 6 slot it and make it perma.
3) LBE is a solid power and is worthy of 6 slotting.
4) The last 2 are ok decisions (very safe and conservative). You may want to consider Energy Torrent. You can easily 4 slot it by taking the base slot, adding the spare slot you yanked out of Rage, and then adding 2 slots yanked from Dull Pain.

You'll want to post that on the Test forum also.

You did the testing on Test and that definately looks like a bug. I'ld even consider sending Valdermic a PM if I were you. That's good stuff.

Well actually if you have the numbers and they show they are out of line then yes.

You first have measure your endurance cost per mob without enhancers and do it again per mob with enhancers.

Then you need to see if those numbers are appropriate. If they aren't then you post the results and they will get looked at if you have numbers.

Whirlwind is a funny power. It's great when grouped ... horrible when solo.

If you happen to have Kinetics or Emp (Defender or Controller) then the cost of Whirlwind is easily mitigated when facing those nasty CoS or Rularuu.

I love Whirlwind but I don't take it. Why? I don't run consistant enough groups to ensure I can handle the endurance drain. It's an awsome power but you need support to hit full potential on this ability!