Pacur
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Quote:Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I've run it 5 times now, and it's been exactly the same each time.
Watch cutscene.
Kill some warworks.
Congregate in big crowd on tennis court near buffers/healers.
Wait for sb to pull Nightwing, defeat her.
Defeat waves of non-attacking runners for 5 mins.
Go back to tennis court.
Wait for sb to pull Seige, defeat him.
He rezzes, Nightwing arrives. Attack them both so they eventually fall within seconds of each other.
All of this happens in a very small area of one map.
I haven't noticed any specific ATs being required. I'm doing this on an en/en/fire Blaster, so I'm there for damage obviously.
Maybe I'm missing sth important being done by other ATs? I heard some talk of 'rings', possibly there's turrets involved?
I haven't been dying more than once per run.
It's all over in half hour, easy. It's extremely repetitive and simplistic, and appears basically unfailaible as long as the teams not made of morons.
I don't understand why anyone would do it more than once ot twice if it wasn't for the Incarnate rewards.
are there any fans of the BAF out there who like it for any reason other than it's an easy way to get threads etc in half an hour?
Eco
Wait a second. In another thread I SPECIFICALLY remember you saying that trials are difficult as one of your reasons for wanting small team/solo content. So which one is it? -
That's it. I'm done. I cant take this anymore. I stated the reasons plainly, clearly, and concisely. I agreed that some things DO need to change about what things are available exclusively through E-Merits, and should be moved to Astrals, regular merits, or whatever.
Incarnate powers are not FORCED upon people. Its a choice if you want them or not. Want just Alpha slot? yes, sure, it's soloable. its easy. Want something more? Well, I'm sorry but you have to work for it.
Not all thing sin life are supposed to be accomplished by a single person. Or, rather, not all things in life are supposed to be accomplished by one persona s fast as a group of people. You cant become a doctor sitting in a library all day, every day, for several years, and expect to have the same rate of progression as someone who goes to school.
You can't paint a house at the same speed solo as a group of people painting the same house at the same time.
You cant...well, you get the idea.
Yet on these boards I see people metaphorically beating this issue to death that they want to solo incarnates at the same rate as groups do. Well, THAT IS JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
TLDR: If you want Incarnate powers, you gona have to do trials for it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
We're not complaining that they're too hard. At least, I'm not. I'm complaining that it's a) trial only, b) grind only, and c) that regular non-incarnate content is locked behind it.
And I don't mention the alternative path, because it's simply not a viable path.
Why is it not viable? You still get the same stuff, it just takes longer. -
Quote:Thank you for putting it that way. I completely agree. Incarnates are the super-powers for the superpowered. They are meant to either A)Take a long time or B)be hard to obtain (yes, yes, BAF and LAM are easy, Keyes was mastered in a day, I know).Originally Posted by MoggieCanada
To add my own voice to the Incarnate trial debate, or is it a civil war? Hard to tell with the volume used by some people.
As a level 50 kin/rad and 4 year player of CoX, I tried my best with the Incarnate trials and tried to learn the system and the slots and all that. I had my keyster handed to me and my lunch money taken. I can't keep up with the breakneck pace. It's not working for me, and I'm not going to do with them again. Ever.
Having said this, I'm not going to join the mobs screaming for the Incarnates to be dumbed down or removed outright or complain they are too hard.
Incarnates are God-like powers. The stuff Lord Recluse and Statesman are made of. They are supposed to be breakneck hard and rapid-fire paced. If you cannot handle it, don't fret about not getting the powers, emotes, or costume pieces. You are not Incarnate material and that's it. Go do something else. That's what I am going to do. There's still 7 years of content a level 50 can still do and there's always the AE I wanted to learn. I love writing stories and the AE is certainly the closest thing to interactive story writing.
I'm not being harsh, but I am offering a reality check on what these incarnate trials are supposed to be and why they are that difficult.
Event Horizon Man
Oh, Moggie, if you are willing, id love to answer any questions you may have about the incarnates trials, and, if you have a character on my server would gladly run with you through them. -
Quote:Ok, read up on the QTE, and I just have to disagree. In no trial (or arc, once in a TF) have I been asked to interact during a cutscene in order to have something happen.Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
It's a term describing a specific game design feature. There's a wikipedia article about it.
If you have a formula, then you do not have a challenge - other than possibly having high enough stats and being attentive enough to follow the instructions.
Not really. Most of the challenges of the trials are conventional game mechanics. There isn't much difference between the "click the glowie" mechanics in a trial and that in a normal mission.
So if there are new mechanics added to the trials, why not add them to the rest of the game? For instance, I would love to have the branching mechanism in Ghost Widow's patron arc. You know, when Arbiter Daos wants you to give her the finger? That's where. I almost stopped playing the arc, because I didn't want to, and not playing the rest of the arc was the only way to not do it.
So how about a branching mechanism? At that point, you get a choice. You choose to do as Daos says, and the arc progresses as it does now. You choose to not to, and the arc progresses in another way.
Then, there are these gazillions of failable missions where the only thing that happens if you fail is that you don't get the bonus XP reward and there's a silly dialogue brushing your failure under the carpet so that the arc can progress to the next mission.
If you have a formula you absolutely can have a challenge. The challenge lies in applying the formula. To kind of continue your food analogy of a cake you made a few posts ago, you need to know the formula to making the cake, you need to know the order ti mix the ingredients, put it in the over, when to take it out, and when to decorate it. Otherwise you decorate the eggs, put them int he oven, mix the flour and sugar in a bowl, then try to mix it together after the eggs have exploded in the oven.
I have to disagree that trial mechanics are the same as regular mission arc mechanics. In no mission have I been told to stop escaping prisoners, or I fail the arc. In no arc have I been told that I have a pulse damaging me for the entirety of a mission. These are just a couple example and I could go on.
I do agree that a branching mechanism would be nice for some missions, however.
As I said before, I do not find putting a team together for trials and TFs to be exceedingly large. Even on a low-pop server such as mine it is not difficult.Quote:Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Do you have any idea how many MMOs went under due to exactly this? Not that I'm suggesting CoH is likely to "go under," but this is reason #1 people want a wider system at the outset. They do not have the resources to build enough trials to support the system, and even they did, this does not solve other issues, like the lag and the amount of time speent parked waiting for the event to start. All of these are reasons why tapering the game down to just a very small subset of not-yet-developed and time consuming material was a bad idea to begin with. I can't fault them for not having the resources to build out multiple trials at once, but I certainly can for building the system in a way they can't support.
It sounds to me you want as much incarnate content now, as opposed to waiting for it. That is the sense I get from the very first sentence.
I am happy you made this post.Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I expect to have as much variety in task types post 50 advancement as I did pre-50. I expect it will happen someday. Before I learned they were solely making trials for incarnate advancement, I expected a mix of trials and task forces. Once I learned what they were doing, I have been suggesting they should allow more variety, eventually. I do not expect the variety to happen quickly, but I am hopeful that some will appear before I23 (and the Notice to threads is a good start, IMO). However, you seemed to think it was odd to want variety in a game that has taught us to expect variety.
I agree that often there is little variety upon a new system first being released. I actually even prefer that to an extent. But a lot of people want to know if there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think they could be appeased if they just look at the history of the game and see that systems are generally released to expand the variety, but some people are concerned this may be one of those things that takes years instead of months.
For six years, there has been no trial/raiding/endgame content (call it what you will). Now there is, because people have been asking for it for a long time. You say you wish to see a light at the end of the tunnel, as if this is some sort of dark time indeed for the game.
You cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel because there IS no tunnel. -
Quote:I think you're right on that last part there.Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Alting helps a great deal, I really like the characters I make. Only playing for an hour or so when I can play no doubt helps too, leaves me with a twinge of regret for logging off. When it does gets old, I hunker down and work on a new MA arc (and at an hour per session, that's a looong time). Plus I'm not even close to having done everything in the game, all the story arcs, every tip mission, etc - I've never seen the Eden map for cryin' out loud!
As for the movie thing - that's just me, not everyone. I know some people can be all "I've seen Star Wars 35 times! ^^", but I'm not one of them. Heck, I love Frank Zappa too, but after having heard his stuff enough times to actually hear it note for note in a dream (true story), I just don't listen any more; for a film, that's usually about 4 viewings before boredom sets in. I may have one of those personalities that requires novel input more than the average bear for all I know...
There is no way that this game can have as much trial content as there is other content out now. In six more years? Maybe. Currently? No.Quote:Originally Posted by peterpeter
To play different content which is equally time consuming, challenging, and risky, but which they find more fun? And then get the same rewards. -
Quote:As I've said above, at least three of those arguments are just splitting hairs. See above for my response.Originally Posted by Winterminal
4 people, on one page, asking the same question pretty much independently of one another. At this point, I don't think we are even asking Pacur specifically (though, if you read this Pacur, I am still genuinely curious). It would be great to see an explanation from a red name for the reasoning behind this, preferably something other than, "We needed to give Astral Christy and Empyrean Michael more to sell than just the Ascension costume pieces and Incarnate power chest emblems." Because, while I'm sure that's part of it, that alone (without any other reasoning) sounds like the "easy way out" and so far, this MMO has been more innovative than that and I would hate to see that innovation decrease.
It seems all four of these questions have the same root though: Why aren't incarnates auras more flashy? Well, I agree. They need to be more epic, honestly,
Wait, it's hard to detect sarcasm in text. Are you being serious or sarcastic here?Quote:Originally Posted by Arilou
Honestly, considering how repetitive this game is, I can't imagine how you'd stand it.
Again, only certain costumes are locked behind E-merits, which are only gettable via raids. Other costumes are locked behind Astrals, which are gettable through TFs.Quote:Originally Posted by Arilou
Specifically, they wanted people who liked running trials and liked new costume pieces a way to earn costume pieces by running trials.
Well, from how you describe your playstyle, I again have to say, that you were probably not the target market of this half-issue.Quote:Originally Posted by rsclark
Here's the direction I am looking at the current system from. Not counting alpha, I have not unlocked a single slot without immediately sticking a t3 in it. I have always had enough to create the t3 before finishing unlocking the slot.
Additionally, I don't give a flying fig about t4. The jump in power between t3 and t4 is barely noticeable, and the cost difference is huge.
So, from my standpoint, I want the t3 (in destiny and lore), because it makes me not die instantly when I step into a trial. It makes any future trials have a slightly better chance of actually being fun. It is all I want, and is one step up from nothing. Either I don't have the power at all, or I have everything I want - there is no inbetween.
So, there is no slow playing grind for that unless you like doing something you don't enjoy for no reward. The only sensible option is to hold my nose and swallow whatever icky stuff they are feeding me to get done with it as fast as possible, because along the way there is no point where I get a moment's reprieve to appreciate some small reward. I'm either chasing something in the far future, or I already have it and have no reason to ever play the content again.
And that is literally how I play. LAM until I unlock destiny and then never touch that pile of bad seafood meets large intestine again, then the same with BAF until I get lore. Oddly, I have no reason to play Keyes ever. Once it's unlocked (and immediately slotted with a t3), I place no value whatsoever on getting anything past that.
Well, do you really expect to have as much trials in game as there are ways to level?Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I love all the story arcs, some less than others, but I still run them occasionally. The repetition is not nearly so bad when you space out the content over months. Since I have characters in all level ranges (although I have a dearth of sub-20s since have not gotten new powersets in a year now) I can pick and choose the story arcs and therefore I do not have to run something I have recently run. I do not level up the same way, all my characters take different paths. Sometimes I run the Hollows, sometimes I run Atlas, Galaxy, KR, sometimes I run scanners/newspapers, sometimes I hunt the sewers, Perez, then Boom, sometimes I do lowbie AE arcs, sometimes I run Faultline, sometimes I run Striga, sometimes I run Talos/IP contacts, rarely I run Croatoa, often I run Founders, Bricks contact mixed with some scanners. Sometimes I team, sometimes I solo, sometimes I run just with my SG, sometimes I run on big teams, sometimes on duos or just 3, somtimes I run primarily in PUGs. I usually sprinkle some TFs throughout the leveling as well.
Recently, I have been able to throw in Tips, which has helped my redside play, since prior to tips, my choices were more narrow (the new redside Sharkhead content has helped too, hopefully we get some new redside 30-40 stuff within 12 months).
The massive amount of content in the game for leveling keeps it from being repetitive, IMO. -
Quote:The incarnate system specifically what?Originally Posted by Gaspard
I did and I still don't get why the incarnate system specifically. lol
I have tha auras now myself tho, still can't see anything epic about it.
Edit: The iAuras may be nicer looking than the normal auras, I admit. However that's a prolly because the normal auras came long time ago. Bit like old vs new in weapon models or for example if you compare the blockheaded Hellion models to the new Rikti or IDF.
Just cuz I think it is. If you ask someone else, they prolly have different opinion. lol
If u want to know why I think that way, then I can just say that I was turned off big time by the unavoidable pulses and having to drag an agroed AV around the map to complete objectives.
On the second point, well, no one is forcing you to run Keyes Island. You can just run BAF and LAM.
And, honestly, I am not seeing a lot of people saying that they hate Keyes island, so it seems to me that you are in the minority there.
The line of reasoning int he first part is just splitting hairs. I already said that singling out a single power and using it as an example of all the others, is not good logic, the same way if I held out pixels and used it as a yardstick.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That's all well and good and fine, but then explain how having fire surrounding you is different than having slime or bubbles. How is one or the other more impressive that one goes "oh this person is an Incarnate".
You never explained that part.
That is my whole issue with the logical pretzel of saying this aura or that aura signifies Incarnate power. There is no difference in the aura you get at 1, 30, or 50. Which is why I don't think the CURRENT auras are justified in being locked behind being Incarnate content no matter how you justify power. It just doesn't jive with the other more visually impressive auras we can get at any other time BEFORE 50.
Also, I've said numerous times about my feelings on them being not flashy. Choosing to ignore my answers, and asking the same question again and again and again is a logical pretzel in itself. -
Quote:Well, as stated before, it seems to me that people are having problems accepting that these auras are an increase in power, because people don't see them as "epic".Originally Posted by Winterminal
You're welcome, and I hope that has been made clear to people who view it differently.
I, too, consider myself to be someone who tends to put themselves in the world of the character without much RP. It is for that reason that I am upset by some of the things up for purchase with Incarnate Merits, and have therefore included the last sentence of my previous post in the above quote. I am curious how you, someone who (from the sounds of it) seems to have a similar approach to characters as I, would justify that last phrase? For another example, how would you justify a character with the Pixels Aura to be an Incarnate, but a character with a Gaseous Aura to not necessarily be an Incarnate, within the world of the game? I don't mean to put you on the spot nor to come off as attacking, just genuinely and simply curious.
The fix is simple then: make them flashier. Honestly, I think the problem arose either by that the art department not making these auras as flashy, or the game mechanics department locking them behind E-Merits.
As I've stated 3 or 4 times previously, The simple and quick solution is to move them to be either be aquired behind Astrals (which you can get w/o running trials), Hero/Villain merits (no trials required there either), regular merits (no trials), etc...
Well, honestly, I'm getting tired of repeating the same point over and over and over again. So I'm going to make it short this time:Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is indeed true that a fair number of people were not in the market for raids. However, many of the people not interested in raids were (and are) still interested in character advancement. I can only assume that a fair number of people left it be known that they desired raids and the devs decided to link that to character advancement. I am not sure they needed to be linked, but I do know it helps ensure that a large enough segment of the population lines up for the trials.
So since they are linked, those interested in advancement but not raids feel a bit left out.
If people want incarnate abilities, beyond the alpha slot, they have to do the trials. If they don't want to do the trials, they can go the slow route and run TFs and SFs for shards to convert them to threads, etc. They can even run Tin Mage and Apex to get Astrals and threads.
If they are not willing to do that, well, what do they expect?
Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Keyes Island is better to doing that, in having specific goals that require coordination to complete. Still, it's pretty formulaic: from the point where the trial was figured out (Wednesday morning here in Europe) it was pretty much following the instructions, and some of the mechanisms in the trials (disintegration, AM pulse) are still frustrating in the bad sense, not in the "challenging" sense, because they are quicktime events. Press X not to die.
So here are a few suggestions:
- Mini-games - codes to crack, wires to cut, locks to pick, that sort of things - which have to be solved by some members. These would be randomized genuine puzzles, like the safe-cracking in Mass Effect 2, so you actually have to figure them out every time.
- Dynamically spawned adds. Not just a fixed amount of ambushes, but reinforcements spawning if the engine notices somehow that the fight is going easy. Kind of an auto-adjust of rep inside the mission.
- More coordinated actions. Two people on either side of the map have to flip a switch at the same time, in order to turn off a force field in the middle of the map for five seconds. Or even, one switch is flipped for ten seconds. When both are on, the force field is off. The better the two players can coordinate themselves, the longer they can have the field open to allow passage. Add defenses that their team mates have to take care off, so that the switch-flipper is not interrupted while flipping.
- Branching missions. Currently, missions are mostly linear, and if you fail at one point, either the whole chain fails (in trials, for instance) or nothing happens and the failure is handwaved away and you get less rewards (most mission chains). What I would like to see is branching. If you succeed, then this happens; if not, something else happens. You manage to stop the goliath; good, now take the fight to Praetoria. You failed? Shucks, you have to rush to somewhere else to fend off the invasion.
In fact, I would like to see a lot of these in regular missions and task forces.
I'm not sure what you mean by "quicktime events" but I'm sure it's just something being lost in translation.
But I am not seeing how being formulaic is bad: you have a challenge, you know the formula, apply that formula to the problem, and it's solved.
As for your suggestions, you said even yourself you would want them to be in regular missions and TFs, so they kind of go beyond the scope of the trials.
Quick note: The "simultaneously click" feature is one of the most hated aspects in my experience.
I honestly am not seeing a problem with linking character progression with raids. You have a challenge, overcome it, get more powerful, etc, etc...Quote:Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Game, set, match.
Character progression and raid grind are not the same thing, and they aren't intrinsically linked. You can have character progressions sans raids, as the old Inventions system demonstrated, and you can have raiding without character progression, as the Hamidon and Rikti Shuttle raids demonstrated. Choosing to roll both concepts into one is not the natural state of things, it is a conscious design decision, and one I happen to disagree with. -
Well it seems to me this thread is going down the path of :
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA AAAAAAA AAAAAA AAA A AA AAAAAAAAAAAA AAA AAA AAAAAA A AAAAAA AAAAA aaa Aaaaaa AAAA".
"A Aa aAAAAAaaA Aaaaa AAAAA aaaa AAAAAAAA aaaa Aaa Aa"
Or maybe these are just how my sleeping pills are making it seem. -
Quote:So wait, you are advocating the use of the slow path, but you also say it will also burn people out? I'm confused here (or I'm not getting something).Originally Posted by Lazarillo
See, that's not an unreasonable thing to believe. In fact, it's what I believed, when I first started. I figgered, do one maybe every few days, work at it a little at a time, I won't burn myself out. But the exact opposite happened. When you've been working at something slowly for a couple of weeks, and even though you know it's the slow path, you realize you have nothing to show for that couple weeks of work, it kills is just as dead. So if it's a matter of burning myself out either way, it's nicer to have some results from it.
Grinding raids is grinding raids. It doesn't matter if that grind is the result of doing 20 raids in two days, or two weeks, or two years.
I'm assuming the 16=15 is a typo, and 16=16 is what you meant.Quote:Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Yes, precisely like man-hours. 1 team of 16 = 15 E-merits. Hence 16 teams of 1 = 1 E-merit each (plus other stuff)
I know it doesn't take that long to set up a trial I was constructing as conservative a case as I could, favouring the pro-teamers because more realistic numbers would result in much shorter suggested solo times.
Frankly worst case timing x4 is still stupidly long, but it's doable, more so that the current between 1:50to100 ratio.
And also it sorta confuses me. You run 16 accounts? or am I missing something here?
I have to disagree with the movie analogy. Movies (in general, I'm not counting that "the movie calls you" thing I saw over in Europe) do not require interaction with the person. The watcher sits there, and gets the information. In the game, you are an active participant, and the outcome (success or failure of a trial) depends on your actions.Quote:Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Yes, only three times!
I feel the same way about movies I really like - 3rd time in, I'm starting to know the film, to have it memorized - thus it's getting dull to re-watch it.
This game has always been fun for me due to alting and the plethora of content all over the place. When I do end up replaying some of it ("Defeat Tindelos and guards!"), at least it's coming at pretty spaced out intervals (like 2 months at a time) and it's over in ten minutes or so. This "end- game content", not so much.
Well, I don't see a problem with alting either. I personally have only two 50s, and the rest are mid-range characters (yes, also some low lvls and some higher lvl). The incarnate trials, in my mind, are meant for people who wanted endgame content and have been asking for it for a long time. If you get bored of the trials after three runs, I am sorry to say you obviously were not int hat target market, as it were. -
Quote:What does his wife have anything to do with it?Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
your alter-ego/wife/whatever needs to be the one posting instead of you.
-
Quote:Originally Posted by Winterminal
To add my two cents to the discussion about what "power" is, mainly between Pacur and Aura-Familia, I think you are both right. Within the world of the game, as in the actual fictional universe, Pacur is correct: Having an aura is an expression of greater mastery over your powers, because that is clearly explained as you complete the mission at level 30 necessary to unlock them. However, Aura_Familia is referencing the technical aspects of an aura vs. a power, in that an aura is purely cosmetic and has no other effect whereas a power (as defined by the game mechanics) not only has a visual effect but also influences the environment and/or other players in some way. Essentially, you both are using the same word (power) to describe two different things: in Pacur's case it is prestige among the player community and the in-universe ability for a character to alter his/her appearance, and in Aura's case it is a player's ability to actually influence the other aspects of the game.
{As a quick side note, the justification for "auras expressing a greater mastery of power" a.k.a. gated behind level 30, is quickly waning with many being available at level 1 courtesy of booster packs, Going Rogue, and now the vouchers. CoHF may continue this trend.}
In the game, these are both things which are, and rightly so, expressed by being an Incarnate: you get access to powers unobtainable by lower level characters, and you gain access to costume pieces and auras that are also unobtainable by lower level characters, thus making an Incarnate character act and look the part. No one can argue that the Incarnate abilities are quite powerful and meant to be so. The cosmetic Incarnate Rewards, like the actual Incarnate powers, are meant, at least in part, to be a statement of prestige.
However, given the fact that most of the cosmetic rewards are visually on-par (meaning what they look like, not graphics quality, because that has improved) with things we already have access to at lower levels, the only "prestige" exhibited is a type of bragging rights; a way to say, "I am able to have metallic objects orbiting me because I saved up my merits after running the trials!" However, if we choose to look at it from Pacur's viewpoint, meaning from within the game universe, the question remains of why having ghosts surround you signifies "Incarnate power" whereas having wisps surrounding you does not have that significance.
Thank you for writing that. That pretty much explains how I define power, as I take context and game universe into account as well. -
Quote:How is it flawed? It was just admitted by the poster that he rushes into the trial, and gets it done as fast as possible. Repeat for 4 characters. I don't care what you're doing, be it playing a game, or watching your favorite movie, or doing work. You see the same exact thing repeated over and over and over and over in a very short amount of time, you're going to get tired of it.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I've covered this elsewhere, but this line of reasoning is flawed. It's essentially a blame shifting strategy and a way to say "If you don't enjoy the trials it's your fault for doing the trials too much." The implication is that the poster is not temperate enough, or is too greedy for the rewards. It's a puritanical kind of stance that switches out "time" and "enjoyability," appearing to deliberately misunderstand that what people want is a path that they find fun.
The structure of acquiring powers from the trials is absolutely no different than acquiring powers in any other MMO, and if it is fair game to call those MMOs "grindy," it's fair in this one too. The only difference between how power is acquired in this scenario versus others is the specificness of the missions you are required to run. -
Quote:Wait, wait wait. Back up. You've only ran one lambda trial, and one BAF trial?Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I just did a BAF, out of idle curiosity more than anything else. The one Lambda I tried when it went libe was a borrible exoerience of running into a warehouse, dying, repeat.
I joined a queue for anhtjing and after ten minutes i was in a PUG BAF. I zoned in, said 'hi, my first BAF, what do I do?' and sb said 'lol follow the herd'. Then i stood in the middle of a giant mess of AoEs on a tennis court for 20 mins spamming my attacks (en/en blaster). At one point during this, my team ran over to some doors and I spammed my attacks for a bit there before going back to the tennis court.
Then it finished and Seige and Nightwing were dead.
It was dull as ditchwater. I got some astral merits and a common, but the actual Trial was:
a. easy
b. short
c. boring
I can do one of those a day to get my Incarnate stuff, I guess, but it'll be like having cold showers whilst waiting for decorators to finish reinstalling a boiler in my house, ie something to put up with not enjoy.
What on earth do people see in these things?
Eco -
Quote:Incarnates are not related in any way shape or form to AE. If you want incarnate abilities, you have to run incarnate trials. You can also go do the slow route and do shards.Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
What need is there for a fully slotted Incarnate? Why does he need those abilities? To do the Trials? And then what? To do them again? Over and over?
Sounds hideous to me, but fill your boots if it turns you on.
I want Incarnate abilities to feel awesome when I'm soloing Lvl 50 AE story arcs.
But even if I just wanted them to stand in Atlas saying "look at me, I'm uber!", that is reason enough to be entitled to earn them via a rrasonable and fun solo path.
Eco
I personally don't understand why people expect the same amount of effort and man-hours to go into trial incarnates and not solo incarnates. -
Quote:I really hate to say this, but it kinda sounds to me like you are creating the very problem you are trying to avoid. By rushing head-first into the content, to continue the food analogy, it would be if you went to an all-you-can-eat buffet and ate untill you couldnt anymore. End result being unable to move and swearing youa re not gona do that ever again.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Each character took that time, but yeah. I went from No Judgement unlocked to Rare/Vary Rare powers in everything on a given character in under ten hours time. And yes it was a grind. But the time had nothing to do with that fact. Each of those characters probably ran each raid around 10 times or thereabouts. But it was only because they were crammed together that it was even achievable.
Long term goals work in a game like this because there are mid-way goals that are easy to achieve which can give a sense of accomplishment. Getting to 50 is a long term goal. But if you had to play your way to 50 as a level 1 character, and then suddenly got everything, people would lose interest. The raids are the same way. Until you do many, you've shown no notable progress. I've tried the "slow path" a couple times, and I end up barely doing anything because it ends up feeling like a colossal waste of time.
So, instead, I burned through them quickly before my brain realized how mind numbing it was. It's like how by eating more slowly, you get full more easily, but since "full" in this case was a bad thing, the only alternative was to do as many as possible as fast as possible so that I could go back to ignoring them.
In my experience, by the time I was ready to unlock a slot, I already had everything I needed to make a Rare power for it. This wasn't a good way to balance the rate of reward, in my mind. The "long term" time it takes to earn a VR is pretty fair as well, assuming you're reasonably lucky. But it shouldn't take more than one raid, in my mind, to unlock and slot a common. Basically, I feel like it should be possible to earn commons quickly, but then should take longer to get the Uncommons and Rares, with the total amount of time to the endpoint about where it is.
...granted, what I think is meaningless, since it won't change from what it is, but, eh, you asked. -
Quote:Altering can also mean you are altering yourself. Where does it say that power is defined as only ability to defeat mobs faster?Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Uhh, no they don't. The buildings door ways floors etc, aren't permanently set on fire or covered in slime. Auras are only visual.
And yes I define power as anything that increases my ability to defeat mobs faster. So does the game, as standing around looking pretty doesn't get you any type of advancement.
Logical pretzels continue. -
Quote:That was not my intention. I simply believe every person deserves an answer.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Well, you took it upon yourself to give every one of them a stern talking to.
It's kind of like man-hours. It takes X man-hours to complete this (say 10 man hours to make a doghouse).Quote:Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Why? The time invested per person doesn't change, if 16 people spend 1 hour waiting for a trial and 45 mins doing it how is that different from 16 people spending 1:45:00 doing missions?
Also, I have never seen it take an hour to put together a trial. Just thought I'd say that.
Ok, had to go back a few posts, and I see what you are saying now.Quote:Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
wasnt talking about real money. was talking about the Emp merit unlock.
Like I said, it's like your 50 imparting a measure of their power onto the lower characters. -
Quote:Well, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It looks cool, and it gives you braging rights. it's an expression of power.Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
In one way, yes; in another, no.
Purely visually, yes, the environment changed. It now has little flies/gaseous tendrils/sparks/whatever in it that wasn't there before. However, visual stuff is just that: visual stuff. It doesn't affect the game in any other way.
Heck, even walking is more powerful. Not only are you visually at another position, so is your collision box. Anyone who previously tried to walk at your old position and failed will now succeed; anyone tho previously walked where you are now standing will now fail. Not only the visual appearance of the game world has changed, but also the virtual physical reality of it. And you did it!
Auras doesn't affect the game's physical reality in any way. It just looks cool, and it gives you bragging rights. But that's all. -
Quote:Then I did not completely understand what you were saying. Can you please reiterate?Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Thanks for making my point.
Top of the page where your post was made.Quote:Originally Posted by rsclark
The top post of the page is you.
Ok, the $300 toothpick made me laugh. Thanks, I needed that.Quote:Originally Posted by rsclark
No. I want it to be something that the average person can work gradually at, but be working at a long time - you know, the necessary elements of an endgame.
What we have instead is a system that lets you get big things fast and then has marginal improvement so far away that it's easier to just not do it at all. It's like offering a free steak dinner to tempt people to come in your $300 toothpick store.
But back to the point: You CAN work on it now, gradually, and still unlock all five available incarnates and slot them. Yes, it takes a long time, but you get there.
Well, I certainly see how the system you are proposing will work, but keeping in mind it takes a minimum of 16 people to run the trials (the Keyes and BAF anyway), I think it'll need to be a bit slower than 4x.Quote:Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
Similar, yes. the same? I doubt anyone would let that happen for some reason. I threw around a number or x4 in another thread, that is x4 the total time the teamers take to advance. So if you can run 2 trials with full rewards a day in about 1.5hr + 2hrs waiting For.. 2 components ~8 astrals and 2 Empyreans I'd be fine with solo (Incarnate) content taking 14hrs of constant play over a minimum of 4 days to get something similar.
Interestingly tip missions require 2 days to get to a morality mission. So you could use a similar structure. ~3.5 hrs of Incarnate tip missions = 2 astrals and that is your limit for the day, do that over 4 days and you get the option to go for an Incarnate "axiom" mission where you really get the wells attention, it's failable but if you succeed you get an Empyrean and a random component. Maybe even skew the reward tables to the low end. Just to be sure we don't advance too fast.
4 times slower than team content. Surely no one can say that that is somehow unfair to those who like to team?
I strongly suspect that if they make it more challenging, there will be cries, still, of "It's too hard".Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
They can simply make them more challenging. This isn't that hard.
Yes, but like I said, using IRL money to unlock content is a tricky subject. Hence, I gave my alien analogy. Yes, it's not perfect, but it's the easiest thing I can come up with off the top of my head.Quote:Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
No you don't. Lots of auras from boosters are available at level 1, and with the new Vendors you can buy an unlock for Capes or Auras usable by any character.
Quote:Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Challenge? Not so much.
To become an incarnate you need the fortitude for extensive downtime while waiting for the event to begin, a strong enough net connection to make it through said event, and the stomach to repeat those action over and over.
What seperates an incarnate from a non-incarnate is not challenge or skill. It is almost entirely based on how much you want to deal with these 3 specific missions and all of the things associated with them. Some people do want "solo" missions but that does not sum up everyone. IMO the majority of complaints are from people--soloists, teamers, and non-commitals--who simply take issue with the limited scope of the system and the downsizing of elligible content. I think for many of them the issue is not specific to trials but would be apparant whether the game was whittled to soloing, bank missions, radios, the AE, street sweeping, AVs, or GMs. This is why so few of people currently posting took issue with the Alpha system but now are suddenly up in arms.
I think you are referring to all the things people are complaining about here.
So how would you rather the trials challenge the playerbase?Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
The argument from the trial lovers goes "you have to work for your reward". Also known as "you have to do X to get Y" or the "go to bed without dinner" argument.
What I'm trying to convey is that I don't mind having to work for the rewards, as long as it isn't grinding. I don't need the rewards now, but I need another way of getting them that doesn't involve grinding 3 x 30 minutes of trials. I want alternative paths. Other things to do that's not grinding trials, and still progress as incarnate.
And the "bites" part is probably swenglish. It means that I don't buy into his argument about "do X to get Y", and I suspect that he won't buy my argument that I want alternative paths.
There isn't a challenge. It isn't hard to complete a trial. Really. Even I can complete them. It's mostly a matter of statistics and people actually listening to instructions rather than reading the forums. But the challenge is on the level of getting people to listen to instructions like "you, tank Recluse; you, heal the first guy; the rest take on the towers in this order. Go!"
The only "challenge" is to not get bored of grinding it before you're done. That isn't a challenge that I would want in this game - or any game. Boring games are failed games. On top of that, it's a meta challenge, not an in-game challenge. -
Quote:Well, we only have servers here because of hardware limitations (among other things). If this were like EVE online, with us all sharing the same server, it would be quite different, really.Originally Posted by Anchor
That might explain giving the items to characters on the same server, but can you not also uplift/take under your wing/send global mails to a character on a different server on which your Incarnate has never existed?
However, I don't see us all merging onto one server anytime soon.
There is no need to resort to personal attacks.Quote:Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And I call BS, because THAT is called railroading, aka 'Game Godmoding Players'.
Who the hell gave anyone, anyone but me, the right to decide what the hell my characters can and cannot do? Sure, I can live with levelling. I can live with other things that are base-line MMO fare.
I can wear a damn cape at level 1, courtesy of booster packs. But, I cant wear THIS cape until...well, whenever. I can have THIS aura but not THAT aura...oh, and I have to be THIS awesome to catch my breath, faint and collapse.
That argument is utter, utter tripe.
Again, I have to reiterate that these particular costumes and auras signify your increase in power as you travel down the path of an incarnate.
I have expressed my views previously on the faint and collapse emotes.
How is this however "railroading" or "Game Godmoding Players" (a term I have never encountered before)?
how am I making anything up? You unlock these things with your lvl 50 character who has E-merits, and it gets unlocked on all your other characters. Honestly, if it WASNT unlocked globally, there would be cries for the dev's heads.Quote:Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Well, I can make anything up to make this not work or any number of things to make it work or not work or whatever I'd wish to do.
So, I think it is time to stop any attempt at a conversation here.
Auras give your character the ability to alter the environment about themselves, so it is power.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
See my question above.
I never said I like trials anymore or less than other game content.Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
Of course you don't. You like the trials, so you don't see it my way.
Which is why you have to modify the analogy to make it reflect your point of view. That point of view is not my point of view, so from my point of view, your analogy don't hold.
However, your analogy shows how you feel about the whole business, and I will respect that point of view. But, and here's the big but, it doesn't show how I feel about the "do X to get Y" arguments or "learn to like it, because more is coming" arguments, and it certainly doesn't show what I feel about grinding trials.
Please, continue to enjoy spinach.
As i said earlier, people will learn, adapt, and it will be easy.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Funny as how teams are already steamrolling through Keyes. I was just on three back to back ones.
I agree. Though I wouldn't have put it into such words myself.Quote:Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You wait for the next round of non trial stuff. Just like people who like big group raids/trials had to wait for years for something they liked.
Acting like everything from now on forever and ever is gonna be related to this feature and locked behind a wall you're unwilling to climb is shortsighted at best, moronic at worst.
Again, I have to restate that I do not agree that swoon and those types of emotes are only unlockable with E-merits. In my opinion, you should be able tog et them with something else as well.Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow_Kitty
No, it actually works like this: "I have a barcode on my chest. And I can swoon. That means that one of my characters have grinded Incarnate content. I has bragging rights!!! Fear me!!!" -
Quote:I fail to see how it is a logical pretzel.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
If you have to twist yourself into a logical pretzel it fails.
I think the issue is what one considers power.
I don't consider a flashy costume to be indicative of power.
Any fool can put on a costume, doesn't make them a superhero if their weak as spit.
Traditionally for this game, power has been equated with increased recharge, end managment, new abilities, etc.
So what are these auras increasing my character's ability to do?
Also, as I said before, I think we are working from different definitions of power here.
I like the definition of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28philosophy%29
Power gives us ability to control the environment around us. Auras change the environment. So, they are a measure of power.
Traditions, however, can change when the circumstances change.Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
See my response.
Traditionally for this game costume pieces have not been seen to be an increase in power. -
Quote:Higher characters give an aspect of their power to lower characters, etc, etc....Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Another perfect example...
How do you handle the fact that these auras and costumes unlock globally?
You say it shows the increase in power by earning that power in-game...
How does The Electric-Knight unlocking these auras for a level 30 Mastermind that player also plays fit into that in-game-world reasoning that you use to explain things to me?
Again, all of this is with respect and I apologize for not replying directly to the post you made in reply to me... These just inspired the exact thoughts I wished to express. And I honestly only express them because I think you'll understand.
And I appreciate your honesty. -
Quote:Ok, but auras DO signify an increase in power. See my reasons above.Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I'm just quoting this as it is a great, concise example of what I was going to say to your reply to me...
It is the ridiculous" things that many people have been offering their negative feedback about.
And your post was pointing to this particular negative feedback as being wrong/unnecessary.
You keep acknowledging the actual points of the people expressing negative feedback... and then dismissing them as you go back to saying that there is no overall problem.
That was my point in my first reply to you and your reply to me and replies to others continue to do the same thing.
It's cool... everything is okay.
We both agree about this.
There are reasons for the negative feedback and it is not hyperbole and doom cries.
It's just people, actual people, with different playstyles, preferences, enjoyments, tastes, amounts-of-time, interests, etc. that are using these forums to express their opinions.
They are not wrong.
And no one is wrong to enjoy the way things are.