Scorus

I think a skeleton crew is certainly hyperbolic, but many of us who have been around throughout CoH's existence have noticed big differences. I think the decision to share people between running CoH and devloping CoV, instead of having a team develop CoV while another team separately improved and ran CoH, was a poor one. That led to CoV being very disappointing to many of your players due to the lack of original content (new power sets, powers, and enemies, primarily); and to a string of CoH updates going live with scads of bugs and graphic problems that were reported and acknowledged but not fixed in testing (or for months thereafter, in many cases).

It seems that the same thing is going on with CoX. Instead of having two teams that work collaboratively, we have one team doing two jobs. I certainly hope that you are hiring as you keep expanding the amount of upkeep and development, but the game seems to be suffering as that expansion continues to outpace the expansion of staff.

Scorus

My .02:

CoH has fallen into the trap of trying to be all things to all people. If they had put the massive amount of time and effort that they have put into things like arena, bases, PvP, and the crafting system into PvE and content creation; I think we would all be a lot better off. The devs did not look for the deal-breaking assumptions that were just below the surface of these requests (e.g. PvP will give xp), and pushed ahead with them at the expense of developing more and better content to satisfy their player base. Each new system has ended up disappointing and being under-utilized relative to the PvE content that the overwhelming majority of players are looking for.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try and expand a game into new directions. But those new directions have to be consistent with the core thing that you do well and you have to realize that they have a price! Just think how many new power sets could have been designed for CoV if it had been a stand-alone game (or expansion) without PvP. How many graphic bugs could have been fixed with the staff-time money that went into bases?

People started playing CoH for PvE and they are still playing the game for PvE. The only way to keep that going is to focus on adding PvE content. Not more PvP, not crafting, not more bases, but things that add to the PvE experience. Costumes, teaming stuff, new power sets, villains, zones, missions, etc.

/Brimstone Armor

Scorus

Interesting. How does this work for respec? Can we do multiple trials and then respec from one patron to another?

Stalkers: Keep in mind that pets and being hidden don't mix very well at all! If you have a pet, they WILL see you in addition to your pet. Wonder if we get the auto-crit on all of those ranged attacks?

Scorus

I like leets...

Otherwise, I rather agree. The decision to not spend the money on separate CoH and CoV teams, to have at least the key people just double up, has had a big negative effect on both games.

Scorus

I would strongly support not spending any more time on this. I feel that over the last year this game has shifted to making a common mistake among successful games: trying to be all things for all people. I think the core game that so many fans appreciate most has suffered as a result of this. When I think of what this game could look like and how many fewer bugs might exist if all of the staff time that was put into the arenas and skill system were instead put into PvE...

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't say he didn't see it. He said they're looking into it. And he even apologized.

[/ QUOTE ]

They went live with a known bug that eliminated a strategy that some power sets depend on. I think Statesman would agree that he has every right to be angry.

Scorus

Two things:

1) Anyone that regularly tries to AS running NPCs knows that there is more to it than the distance when you activate the power. If someone is running from you (usually back to where they started after chasing you) and you stop to activate it when they are close enough; the power will activate, run through its animation, miss, but will not need to be recharged. The power button will still be full size and can be pressed again immediately. Happens all the time to me (Ninja/Ninjitsu).

2) I thought that stealth powers rendered our power sounds mute, just like it renders our glowing power effects invisible. Is Build Up (and others?) an exception to this? I know some things can't be heard since back in beta I'd stand next to people with some loud toggle powers on and they clearly didn't know it.

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
Exemplar/Malefactor to someone doing the mission and you will get the badge when they do.

We do not want to make the missions in the PvP zones go all the way to 50, because then a character could literally spend all his time in that zone, never needing to leave except to visit stores, and that is gameplay we dont want to encourage.

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Fair enough, but I would like to do the missions while auto-exemplared. If my level 50 soloer is in Bloody Bay and therefore is exemplared down to 25 (or is it 20?), I would like for him to be able to get the mission and do it at level 25 against level 25-29s (depending on my difficulty setting).

No xp, just the opportunity to experience the content and get the badge.

Scorus

Statesman: My SG has three active members left. Yes, we could dissolve and combine with another, larger group, but our SG has a story and we don't want to give up that story.

But we do want to enjoy everything that the game offers. We are willing to do what we have to to do that. We team with others to do TFs and to take out AVs. We don't expect every part of the game to be built for our play style.

But base construction is absolutely insane. For us to build everything that we need just to have a basic workshop, we'll need 690K, unless I'm missing something. That will never happen. Even with the paltry bonus that was given to existing groups. And we were so looking forward to basic medical and teleport options also.

Bases were a huge part of our advertising for CoV. If the biggest reasons to have them is going to be completely inaccessible to the vast majority of your player base (when you include most all the casual gamers), this is a major problem.

This points out the big flaw in the testing that was done, it ignored the economics. Bases were fun for everyone in the CoV beta but there was no way to see that even the basic luxuries would be off limits to people like us.

Scorus

I thought dumb things made you do fury?

Scorus

Ouch, I thought it was 34. 24 seems early, players don't really start having more money than they'll ever need to spend until around 30.

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
hasten cannot be permaed anymore but you only get minimal downtime if you keep it about 40 seconds or so. I don't get why stone tanks would respect out of it all of the sudden just because you can't perma it.

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I didn't reply to this before because I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight. This is the kind of misconception that many of us Stone Tankers think that non-Stone Tankers have when they talk about how the drawbacks to Granite (and Rooted) don't offset the benefits. So, for the record:

With Granite on, the Hasten downtime is now 2:25 (that assumes 6 Recharge SOs in Hasten).

With Granite on and Hasten recharging, our big attack power has a recharge of 1:00 (assumes no recharge SOs)

With Granite on and Hasten recharging, our littlest attack power has a recharge of :15 (assumes no recharge SOs).

With Granite on and Hasten recharging, Taunt has a recharge of :30.

I agree that the benefits still far outweigh the costs and I personally think any Stone Tanker that uses Granite is crazy to not have Hasten, so at least you get 2 minutes with powers that recharge semi-normally. But wanted to clear the air and point out that until you play in Granite, it is really tough for people to understand the drawbacks. Keeping aggro when you can't taunt or punchvoke more often than above can be challenging.

I now return you to the interesting discussion already in progress.

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
<sigh> I was refering to only your post granite build.

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* 5 of the 6 sentences in my response that you quoted referred to my post granite build. Apologies if the first sentence concerning pre granite forced you to stop reading there.

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My "premise" is only that your ability to still be a tank post-32 colors your judgement.

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Enough Inv and other non-Stone Tankers have reported still being able to tank effectively post-32 that I believe your premise to be incorrect.

[ QUOTE ]
For your pre-granite tests, another AT would have provided more than your stone tank could have.

[/ QUOTE ]

More what? Not a rhetorical question, I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about. More crowd control, damage, buffing, debuffing? Yes. More aggro control and damage soaking? No. If the other categories are more important than what Tankers can and have always been able to do, then the question isn't redefinition as much as definition.

These debates sound like cut-and-paste versions of the old Controller concerns that they were unnecessary because of the Tankers ability to control things, the arguments that got Taunt and Provoke to briefly require accuracy enhancements to get them to land. And they seem rooted in one big concern:

Tankers are no longer needed.

And, you know what? That is a good thing. No AT should be needed. For a good while, we were. After the changes to Scrapper defense and resistance, it became suicide to go into certain encounters, the ones that large groups seek out, without a good Tanker. That is no longer the case, it is now possible for a well-balanced team without Tankers to take these groups and encounters.

But unnecessary is not the same as useless! No one should be necessary and everyone should be useful. As I said in my original message, it is a matter of perspective. People are comparing our usefulness now to the necessity that we were before and finding our desirability wanting. I can understand that, but I team with an Inv tank all the time and I wouldn't trade him on the team for any other AT. His ability to get where he needs to be to draw aggro for the team quickly is a wonderful complement to my ability to stand in one place and take a truly incredible amount of damage. He has powers and player skills that every person in the party knows keeps them from ending up face down on a regular basis.

[ QUOTE ]
To Reiterate again: This is not about comparing what we could do before. It is pointing out that our "roles" have been reduced so far as to be nonexistent.

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I know what you are trying to say even if the two sentences here are contradictory. But enough tankers have proven themselves to be not only 'existent' but full and effective parts of teams, that it again reminds me of the old Controller arguments. They were wrong about being useless and I think those of us that believe we are also in that category are also.

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
Scorus, it seems from your sig you play a stone tank. YOUR character is still able to hold aggro and survive it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expected this, though not in the first response.

The premise is incorrect. Pre-granite took severe hits both from I5 and ED. Granite didn't take a hit as far as surviving, but it took a huge hit in the "able to hold aggro." Without Hasten, the huge -SPD component of Granite makes holding aggro on a large scale very problematic. I don't mean that it is impossible, but it is very difficult. Imagine trying to keep aggro while under the influence of 2-3 swarms and you'll get the idea of the challenges.

I've tested ED at the mid-20s, mid-30s, and mid-40s (I keep old versions of my character on the test server). If I push the envelope with my character the way I used to, then I and/or my teammates die. If I make sure that I take the aggro from the most dangerous enemies in a group and my teammates understand that none of us can get away with what we used to, everybody walks away.

Scorus

I haven't read this thread through so I am probably repeating someone else, though I don't expect my stance to be common or popular.

There is no need to redefine our role in PvE. We can still tank, we can still get and keep aggro, we can still take tremendous amounts of damage.

The difference between pre-ED and post-ED is that we cannot take ALL the damage. This is consistent with a number of changes they have made in the past few months. Controllers can no longer control ALL of a large group, Blasters can no longer blast ALL of a large group, Defenders can no longer debuff ALL of a large group, and Tankers can no longer tank ALL of a large group.

This will make some people no longer feel like superheroes, and I expect that group to no longer want to play this game over the other options out there. But I believe that the role of the tank has not changed, only the way we play that role. If the rules had been this way from the start, as they are in CoV, then we'd be known as the people that can take tremendous amounts of damage, damage that would easily kill most of our team if we were not there. Instead, we are known as the guys that can now not take nearly as much damage, and the guys that fall over quickly if we don't realize that we are no longer Invulnerable and play our characters accordingly.

Part of the problem is that teams are still trying to do what they did pre-ED instead of turning the mission difficulty slider down (I know, I know, blasphemy that I would suggest that). Tankers are obviously the class that is going to take the brunt of that decision, even though everyone is now able to do what they do worse. That fact is leading good Tanker players to go through massive amounts of existential angst concerning their disappearing role. The role is the same, our ability to do that role on a massive scale has changed, just like it has changed for every single AT out there.

I5 and ED were an ugly 1-2 punch for Tankers and I think there need to be some changes to ED. But if you try and do less to match the fact that you can do less, just like everyone else, you'll find that the changes are only a matter of degree and not redefinition.

Where our role does need to be redefined is in PvP because we are NOT equipped to get and hold aggro there any longer.

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
Scrapper Mez protection abilities were reduced somewhat by intent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tankers have reported this also. I'm sympathetic to the fact that sometimes changes don't make it into the patch notes, but as a customer service person I hope people get their wrists slapped for it. I really puts your CS people in a difficult spot.

[ QUOTE ]
We've reduced base To Hit from 75% to 50% for PvP purposes. This change was made to give Defense sets more effectiveness. With the ED changes, coupled with the prevalence of +To Hit buffs it was necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

This change might offset the punishment that defensive powers took from ED but it does not address the problem that was there before. Now instead of that blaster having a 175% to-hit, he will have a 150% to hit before subtracting my ca. 30% defense. Whoopee. Between accuracy enhancements (which after ED are much more common), build up, aim, targeting drones, etc., it is not uncommon for defense to not matter whatsoever in a PvP engagement.

Scorus

This happened to me with a Hellion Boss in Port Oakes beta. I thought it was a bugged mission ambush, bugged because a solo player shouldn't be ambushed by a boss, but it happened just like you are describing. I also helped two other people that had it happen to them. In my case, I led my pursuer to the arbiter drone.

Scorus

City of Aliens/Interdimensional beings is next.

Scorus

In beta I couldn't pass a Crey Public Relations Officer in Nerva without killing them...

I tried, just couldn't do it.

Scorus

Is it possible to set cone attacks to automatically critical from Hidden whenever only one target is in range? Until L26, Ninja Blade is stuck with using their L1 power if they want an auto crit outside of Assassin's Blade.

Any chance we can get the base defensive numbers for Ninjitsu, which you mention as being the lowest. A lot of people have been assuming they were the same as the equivalent SR powers. Knowing these numbers is necessary to make an informed decision about slotting.

Scorus

So is Vicious Circle being reconstituted on Virtue?

Scorus

Good catch. I remember that when this change was made they didn't change all melee powers, only Tanker and Scrapper powers. Blaster and pool melee powers could still be debuffed to 0 range (by design).

Scorus

So all I have to do is aggro 17 Rikti Monkeys on me and that boss will never attack me?

Scorus

[ QUOTE ]
You'll have your chance - I'll be playing the one and only Statesman!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny, I saw several of you the other night in Atlas Parks.

I thought you would be taller...

Scorus

My favorite hunting ground in the late 20s is the Crey area in Nerva. The Public Relations out there getting their pictures taken are great targets.

Scorus