The new "role" for my tanks consists of standing around in their colorful costumes and looking pretty for the public. They get to spend the day signing autographs and telling stories to the up and coming heroes of the 'good old days' when tankers were gods and villains cowered in their presence.
Now when villains come around (and my tankers are forced to fight) they turn around, lean against the wall, and assume the "gaping" position. 
Yep. Thanks to ED I have learned that I don't have do a sentence in the Big House to get man handled and donkey punched.
Okay. Seriously. I solo. A LOT.
[ QUOTE ]
The new "role" for my tanks consists of standing around in their colorful costumes and looking pretty for the public. They get to spend the day signing autographs and telling stories to the up and coming heroes of the 'good old days' when tankers were gods and villains cowered in their presence.
Now when villains come around (and my tankers are forced to fight) they turn around, lean against the wall, and assume the "gaping" position.
Yep. Thanks to ED I have learned that I don't have do a sentence in the Big House to get man handled and donkey punched.
Okay. Seriously. I solo. A LOT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now folks, the above is an example of what we DON'T want in this thread.
It is somewhat amusing, however it does absolutely nothing to solve the dilemma that we find ourselves in.
Amusing 'we suck' threads are a dime a dozen.
Now the last line is a good place, however, to begin. Is Soloing our future?
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
[ QUOTE ]
There have been a lot of threads bemoaning the fate of the tank post-ED.
This is not to be one of them. I would recommend not replying to any comments here saying that "Tanks suck now." Everyone knows that already. The last thing we need is to have it reiterated.
This is not a thread for "I'm quitting because of ED." We all know that, too. In some cases I'm sorry, in others, good riddance.
This is not a thread for "I can still solo AVs on Invincible." In that case, I heartily congratulate you and remind you that your powerset may be under the microscope, since Ice seems to be the new standard for tanks.
What I want this thread to be is a Forum for ideas beyond the Pale. What is the role of the tank with our reduced Primaries, our Secondaries that are Defender level and our reduced Aggro-holding abilities? What should a tank be doing on a team? How do we produce the information that will be given to new, young tankers who have only read the CoH manual and don't understand the current reality?
No flamewars, no snide comments. Intelligent commentary only. Personally, I will put anyone violating this on /ignore so I will not be tempted to reply to them. (It might be temporary, it might be permanent.)
This is a big question folks, and will have repercussions on the next six months. This thread is in no way urging that the tanking community cease its campaign to get some of the changes rolled back and/or compensation for the weakening of the sets. That should continue. This thread is going to operate under the assumption that the changes will not be rescinded, and will explore methods of dealing with the reality of the situation as it is now.
[/ QUOTE ]I don't have anything huge to add but I look at it as an obstacle we can find away around. I haven't had much time to redo my enhancements and still running Stamina and Health at 6 slots.
If anyone is really looking into refining from what we are now as opposed to what we can be, please give us your good word. 
Tom (your avatar reminds me of Jack Nicholson),
The sad truth is that our tanks do blow chunks now.
In all seriousness, soloing is really the only option I have. I can no longer effectivly manage aggro and protect my fellow teamates. I've been on more successful teams made up of controllers (that can heal), blasters, and scrappers.
My reply was 'teh funny' though, huh? 
Edit: Upon further review I now see 'Stan Lee'.
I have thought about this question a lot. And really I think it can only be answered by the devs. If they don't have a clear idea as to the role of the tank, we don't really have much of a chance. (And any niche that we may be able to eek out would likely dissapear with the next set of tweaks). What we need is some actual dialog with the devs on this.
EDIT- To add to teh funny, I'd like to suggest a new Tanker sport. Synchronized beard growing. All of the beauty of syncrhonized swimming, twice the follicles!
I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
[ QUOTE ]
Is Soloing our future?
[/ QUOTE ]
Soloing, and small teams of mostly self-sufficient heroes, I imagine. The Tanker doesn't bring anything really major to a team nowadays so he's best in situations where he'll be asked to carry his own weight and nothing more.
Essentially, the Tanker has become a Scranker -- a pure melee fighter with lower damage and higher survivability, which unfortunately translates into a second-rate Scrapper.
The Tanker's team role is nigh-nonexistent these days, as he doesn't have the defenses to do the traditional Tank role -- not the way this game is set up; he currently lacks the ability to withstand much more than "his share" of opponents, making his role as a main tank untenable, especially in a big team. He's better off acting as something of an off-tank in a team where everyone can take care of themselves, and the Tanker is basically around to contain whoopsies but otherwise slowly wears down his own share of opponents until the rest of the team are done with theirs and can help him out. Of course, you might question his usefulness in such a scenario -- and you'd be right to.
I have nothing against a game where the aggro is spread out among the team rather than centered on one "tank", and in fact I'd welcome such a game... nut the role of the Tanker must then be rethought and right now I don't think he has the tools to fulfill any useful purpose -- except as a second-rate Scrapper.
(You might also question what a Tanker will do in a big team where attacking with the once-awesome Gauntlet inherent will draw more attention than he can likely survive... leaving you to wonder if he can even function as an off-Scrapper without getting himself vaporized.)
In short: I think that right now the Tanker's role is that of a mediocre Brute. If that.
[ QUOTE ]
I have thought about this question a lot. And really I think it can only be answered by the devs. If they don't have a clear idea as to the role of the tank, we don't really have much of a chance. (And any niche that we may be able to eek out would likely dissapear with the next set of tweaks). What we need is some actual dialog with the devs on this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, to tell the truth, we have at least two people who are fairly close to the DEVs--Kali and Circeus. However, from what Circeus has been saying over the last week, it looks like the standard for Tanking is going to be Ice and that INV is going to get hit some more.
From what he says, the hope of major change in a buffing sense from the DEVs' side is a probably vain one, which is why we need to start asking the hard questions.
It's sort of like the folks who die in a disaster waiting for the Government to help them--if we wait for the DEVs to give us something that satisfies us all, it may be six months to a year. The AT will struggle if it goes without a rudder for that long.
If Ice is the new standard, perhaps we can get some idea of what Ice Tanks do for a team? Any of you out there care to comment?
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
I haven't played my tanks a lot since ED, but in my limited experience in a team with my L31 Stone/Axe, my role has been to take the alpha strike, and then play scrapper. I can take an alpha strike, as long as the rest of the team immediately follows me in and takes some of the aggro off. I can push out the damage - not as well as a real scrapper, but with Axe my damage is respectable, and the knockdown helps too.
What I can't do any more is take all the aggro, all the time. And if we make a mistake and aggro a second group, I run like everyone else. Tanker's role? A poor man's Phantom Army, useful only for deflecting alpha strikes and doing mediocre damage.
Skip
My Char. List and Market Transactions
HeroStats Developer
Legion of Valor
Iron Eagles
Hate to say it Tom, my advice is Stone, or scrapper/brute.
Stone with Granite can perform the meatshield role that is the MMO model.
As any other tank, you will be somewhat tougher than a scrapper, but significantly overshadowed when it comes to damge output, and the game is about damage output.
Avoid Mace as a secondary, although with ED in place it isn't quite as gimp as it used to be, since it is endurance friendly.
You will be able to handle most alpha strikes, even in larger teams, but pulling is almost always safer. Rushing in against an 8 man spawn without unstoppable or Granite is generally a dangerous proposition. If the team isn't backing you up right away, and sometimes if it is, expect to kiss dirt.
Since your res caps are higher than any other character, orange inspires are your friend, and so are defenders. Don't be shy about using inspires, but don't just blow them all at once either. Orange, Purple (luck, not , and finally green are your food.
You can appear pretty impressive in short bursts using inspires, but remember the difference between Stone and other tankers. Stone has very poor mobility, and has no choice but to stand and take it. Other tankers are able to move, and need to take advantage of that fact whenever possible. and the team needs to understand that as well. In/Out, like duck mating should be the play, take the alpha, run back, let the team beat on things and then go back in to help out squishies as appropriate.
Probably more than any other AT, your playstyle will be dictated by team composition.
I can't recommend a tank at this point (well, maybe a stoner, but you had better be used to being slow and living on the ground, and being nothing but a target in PVP, a tough target, but just a target), but if you want to play one as the game stands now, that's my 2 influence.
[ QUOTE ]
There have been a lot of threads bemoaning the fate of the tank post-ED.
This is not to be one of them. I would recommend not replying to any comments here saying that "Tanks suck now." Everyone knows that already. The last thing we need is to have it reiterated.
This is not a thread for "I'm quitting because of ED." We all know that, too. In some cases I'm sorry, in others, good riddance.
This is not a thread for "I can still solo AVs on Invincible." In that case, I heartily congratulate you and remind you that your powerset may be under the microscope, since Ice seems to be the new standard for tanks.
What I want this thread to be is a Forum for ideas beyond the Pale. What is the role of the tank with our reduced Primaries, our Secondaries that are Defender level and our reduced Aggro-holding abilities? What should a tank be doing on a team? How do we produce the information that will be given to new, young tankers who have only read the CoH manual and don't understand the current reality?
No flamewars, no snide comments. Intelligent commentary only. Personally, I will put anyone violating this on /ignore so I will not be tempted to reply to them. (It might be temporary, it might be permanent.)
This is a big question folks, and will have repercussions on the next six months. This thread is in no way urging that the tanking community cease its campaign to get some of the changes rolled back and/or compensation for the weakening of the sets. That should continue. This thread is going to operate under the assumption that the changes will not be rescinded, and will explore methods of dealing with the reality of the situation as it is now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the main role of tank is one of a philosophical sense. The appeal of a tanker has diminished as those individuals playing the role have come to the realization that the Tank is one that has no purpose. This is not a negative comment but one of reality. The primary focus of the tank was to sit there and take a beating while the more damage dealing AT's could put the foe down. That has dramatically changed from the capabilities now inherent in most tank builds. one can argue that the tank can still take a beating better than other AT types but I would say from the posts by those players who are Tank AT types, that the abuse we once suffered from a Foe can no longer be tollerated and would end in a defeat. I know from teaming with other tanks and other AT's that the tank is actually weaker in most senses. the inherant traits other ATs have been given enhance the team dynamic in a way where its both benificial to them and the team. Where the tank suffers a less than honorable inherent trait that only provides a quicker demise for him and possibly the team.
Add to this the lack of defence imposed by changes in the powersets and enhancments. This is the nobleist of the heroes simular to the character in "The last Samarai"
faceing all odds knowing defeat is but a stone's throw away, The samarai charged. A noble defeat none the less but a defeat. Compared to other archtypes the Tank Archtype is now the least desireable archtype. Of course this is my opinion and you may have your own.
Soloing is IN our future and I found that ED has actually made soloing easier for me.
We are however NOT out of place in a team. We still can take damage better than anyone AND hold off enemies. We just can't do it like we used to.
We can still alpha for the team. Example, I jump in and use footstomp for the first attack. That gets the mob's attention real quick. To manage the mob I pull my view screen back and watch which enemy goes where AND watch the HP of my teammates. I use taunt to pull in the stragglers that are pounding any teammates that are in trouble. I usually team with the same group of people so I know how much people they can fight at a time without dying.
If taunt is unavilable I run towards the group attacking my allies and get there attention with some sort of attack...which usually makes them follow me back to my original position.
We also need to understand that we are now at the same level of all the other AT's in that when we are teaming we will need their help as well. We CAN tank large groups but support maybe needed. One tatic my SG uses against AV's is for all support heroes keep my HP up...ignoring everyone elses...making it up to me to keep the AV's attention. So we need to learn that we just can't always do it alone which maybe the very reason we were "nerfed" or whatever in the first place.
I think we can still do our job...we just can't stand still and do it anymore though. In order to tank now we have to be more aware of what is going on in the battle than any other AT and act when we need to. With all the changes made to tanks we will need to be flexible to the point that our playing style for tanking MUST change, and so the other AT's won't see us as a burden, we have to be GREAT at handling our toons so people can see that we are STILL the best AT. 
Take more support powers...I never had Dull Pain until I6, and it has saved me MANY times. Don't forget Tough, because I did. 
Newbies at tanking need to understand that managing mobs is not as easy as the manual might portray it. You will have to be quite mobil to keep their attention...hmmm teleport could be helpful here now I think about it.
There is my take on it....it all boils down to change your mindset along with the game.
[ QUOTE ]
If Ice is the new standard, perhaps we can get some idea of what Ice Tanks do for a team? Any of you out there care to comment?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I have a level 43 Ice tank that I need to respec on live...I can do some work with him tonight and see what he is capable of. I almost wish I could make a scranker out of him, but with his Ice melee set, I don't see that happening too well.
After I5, I could still tank fairly well on a team, except against AVs. I really haven't found a build I like on test, but I'll give some a try.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Heh.. so.. my Ice tank now blows.. boulders? She always was squishy.. but now.. heh..
Ok. First off.. nice to see a good topic.
Gather round young kape jerks.. Melo troll has lesson for small-time tanks.
First ting you do, is pick your flavor. Melo troll like ice. Keep beers cold good. Melo big-time no like head on beers. Plus.. it fun to see baddies run all big-time slow from cold Melo troll.
I think, more now than ever, we tanks need to pay attention to secondary powers/status effects in our attacks. I for one, love the knockback from an axe. Keeps me on my toes. Plus, a foe on his back is not attacking you.
Now.. Melo understand fire big-time hurt. Not much else fire do cept' burn. Slotting that secondary may be fun. Your results may vary.
Now, Melo no good at speaking.. er.. speeches. I just know.. that previously.. we slotted our primary for max DEF/RES. Now.. Me being ICE. I had low defense already. Its when i stacked my armors, plus EA, i was able to take down a 8 mob +2 rikti ambush in Talos last night. SOLO. I was 30, the mobs 32 and 33, with an open portal.. and drones.. and monkeys. And i survived.
In closing.. Tanks stand tall. Beat chest in big-time glory. We, are the ones teams call when the missions is tough. Me been here since I3, with the purple patch, through the nerfage.. and i can STILL tank. I, Melora, am a Big-Time agry Troll Tank.
Global: @Pandemonia
We're sorry. Due to the lack of adequate marketing, user patience has died 90+ days ago. Please try again sans "Soon."
[ QUOTE ]
I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
SpiritWraith, can a Stone tank hit DR cap solo with his powers as they are now including the Fighting Pool but not counting Granite Armor?
AettThorn, the more information that you can give us, the better. If Ice really is the new standard, this kind of information could be very important.
Got a couple questions for you guys.
Do you think that a tank now is safer soloing than a scrapper prior to level 40?
Will you actually die less often than they do? (Different answers for different level ranges is ok.)
What do you see the role of inspirations in tank battles, either with or without a team?
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
Hm...
I'd say our role is still pretty much what it allways was: take the hits for the team.
But now you're a bit more limited in how many hits you can take for the team. In a large fight, you basically play scranker. You try to hit as many enemies as possible, to hold their attention. You should keep an eye out for targets that are particularly important, like mezzing lts for example and make sure that you get them. Also, you need to keep an eye on your teammates when you can and be ready to pull some aggro off them if they get in too deep.
The point is that you have to know the limits of what a single tank can handle. Don't go into a 8-man team mission expecting tank everything for the team. Same as a defender can't go into a 8-man mission expecting to keep everyone alive no matter what. Teams have to work WITH their Defenders to really benefit from them. Tankers are now the same. What you do, is try to lessen the amount of aggro your team takes. But you have to know when you've reached your limit and will die if you get any more aggro. Once you're at that limit, you're basically doing your job. You have to trust your teammates to be able to handle themselves as well. The days of babysitting teammates is over.
[ QUOTE ]
If Ice is the new standard, perhaps we can get some idea of what Ice Tanks do for a team? Any of you out there care to comment?
[/ QUOTE ]
If Ice is the new gold standard Tom - the best way to help your team is to roll up a controller. No jest. Not being humorous.
At least with my earth/storm controller I can still affect massive control and manage aggro for a rather large team. And that is WITH my rather annoying pet that tends to use ME as the meatshield. I realize that sooner or later my controller will probably be nerfed again, but my hope is that by the time it happens the Fragiles in this game will have revolted causing the Tanker AT to once again get bumped back up to what many of us deem as "useable". (yes I realize that is a sliding-scale determination, but one that many of us don't feel the AT currently meets)
Soo, my take although not the hopeful outlook that many are looking for, is that if you want to still control a big battle - roll up a "controlling" controller. And as many on the boards have suggested (Myrm most recently), park your tanker until changes are made.
Jack, we are seeing threads now regarding a major change to Invincibility getting defense knocked down to 1.5 percent.
Any truth to this and how will this affect our role as meatshields and aggro managers?
[ QUOTE ]
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny I see this A LOT. People also need to be aware of what they can and cannot do. That would help US too.
Look at it this way guys..
Ice Primary can slow the mobs, drain their end, and slow their recharge(a little, but it helps)
The secondary just adds flavor. Go with Ice seconds, and you get some controll. Go with fire, and you got some serious offense. Go with mace, and you get some disorient and SMASH. Axe, you get knockback, plus an occasional disorient. SS, you get some knock back, PLUS, disorient. Im not to sure about stone, but i hope you understand what im describing.
Now.. when i see people saying that the secondaries arent worth slotting.. SHOW ME THE DEMO. I wanna see your proof that they arent worth the slots. They have more than proved their worth to me.
Global: @Pandemonia
We're sorry. Due to the lack of adequate marketing, user patience has died 90+ days ago. Please try again sans "Soon."
[ QUOTE ]
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, that's pretty much what i was trying to say. You lessen the amount of aggro spread around, amking everyone else have an easier time of the fight by not having to deal with everything at once.
Hey, while you're here: any hope of ever evening out the resists in Invuln? Most people that take the set do so for its generic nature. Now it's suddenly defined as the smashing/lethal set. The problem a LOT of us had with I5 was not the overall lowering of our tanking ability but the concept and feel change of our sets. I'm not looking for "immortal" but rather "ok vs all damage but not great against any". Sorry for the plug, but we're still hoping for this
Don't take this the wrong way, Tom, but I wish I'd gotten this much response the two or three times I tried to get people to give an idea of what tanking should be now ...
Anyway ...
I have zero experience with Ice, so I don't have much to contribute in that context. However ...
I think that Tanking should involve a series of low-level short-duration controller-style effects combined with a healthy amount of DR that scales up based on an inverse of how many enemies are within melee range.
I think that the Tanking Primary sets should be specialized with regards to defense. Fire being specialized v. Fire and Negative Energy, Ice being specialized v. Ice and Positive Energy, Stone being specialized v. Smash/Lethal and Psi, and Invulnerable having a median role in all these, save Psi, which should be replaced with Toxic.
I believe that every Tanking primary should include some mitigation of "untyped" damage
I beleive that aggro control should not be accomplished via a power but rather by an inherent that simply counts our damage as double, triple, or even quadruple when we deal it.
I believe that every tanker should have a maximum high DR (60-75%) vs. Smash/Lethal and a moderate (30-50%) in the areas they're specialized in, with current 7.5 - 10%s being reserved for "other types."
[ QUOTE ]
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
[/ QUOTE ]
This has come up in other threads, but I think the flaw in your tests is that you're not representive of the typical player. You understand the math behind the game far better than any of us could hope to and that gives you quite an edge. These posts come across like Evil Knievel saying "I don't see why you people can't jump your motorcycles across the Grand Canyon too. I'm managing it just fine."
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
There have been a lot of threads bemoaning the fate of the tank post-ED.
This is not to be one of them. I would recommend not replying to any comments here saying that "Tanks suck now." Everyone knows that already. The last thing we need is to have it reiterated.
This is not a thread for "I'm quitting because of ED." We all know that, too. In some cases I'm sorry, in others, good riddance.
This is not a thread for "I can still solo AVs on Invincible." In that case, I heartily congratulate you and remind you that your powerset may be under the microscope, since Ice seems to be the new standard for tanks.
What I want this thread to be is a Forum for ideas beyond the Pale. What is the role of the tank with our reduced Primaries, our Secondaries that are Defender level and our reduced Aggro-holding abilities? What should a tank be doing on a team? How do we produce the information that will be given to new, young tankers who have only read the CoH manual and don't understand the current reality?
No flamewars, no snide comments. Intelligent commentary only. Personally, I will put anyone violating this on /ignore so I will not be tempted to reply to them. (It might be temporary, it might be permanent.)
This is a big question folks, and will have repercussions on the next six months. This thread is in no way urging that the tanking community cease its campaign to get some of the changes rolled back and/or compensation for the weakening of the sets. That should continue. This thread is going to operate under the assumption that the changes will not be rescinded, and will explore methods of dealing with the reality of the situation as it is now.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."