You forgot damage debuffed (I forgot what the percentage damage debuff is in Granite though).
You forgot damage debuffed (I forgot what the percentage damage debuff is in Granite though).
Please add the following to Gauntlet:
A small amount of unenhanceable damage resistance versus all that scales up with the number of heroes that are on your team and currently conscious. Outdoors, this effect could be limited to Mentor range.
Start with 1% and test from there.
I think it would solve a lot of problems, giving Tankers a improved Inherent and a little more survivability without turning them into soloing deities.
Please also consider adding the following to Gauntlet: Tankers radiate a melee-range unenhanceable buff to melee, ranged, and AoE Defense for allies. 1% or so. This effect would extend to the Tanker itself, and stack from multiple Tankers.
This effect would be very comic-booky, and feed into classic situations like squishies hanging 'behind' a second group Tanker to use him as a defensive outpost while another Tanker manages aggro. It could even lead to slow but inexorable all-Tanker teams.
Tankers need to be tough enough to be obviously helpful on teams, but not so tough that they are indispensable. Maybe this could help with that.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Okay, now that I'm awake and refreshed, I'll go into more specifics about my tests last night.
First of, my build, in a crappy, non-exported fashion:
Ice Armor:
Frozen Armor - 3 DefBuff, 1 EndRed
Hoarfrost - 3 Heal, 3 RecRed
Glacial Armor - 3 DefBuff, 1 EndRed
Wet Ice - 1 EndRed
Chilling Embrace - 2 EndRed, 1 Taunt
Icicles - 2 EndRed, 1 Acc, 2 Dam
Hibernate - 2 Heal, 2 RecRed
Energy Absorption - 3 RecRed, 2 EndDrain, 1 EndRed
Ice Melee:
Frozen Fists - 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 EndRed, 1 RecRed
Ice Sword - 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 EndRed, 1 RecRed
Greater Ice Sword - 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 EndRed, 1 RecRed
Frozen Touch - 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 1 EndRed, 1 RecRed
Ice Patch - 1 EndRed
Leaping:
Combat Jumping - 1 DefBuff
SJ - 1 JumpDist
Fitness:
Hurdle - JumpDist
Health - 3 Heal
Stamina - 3 EndRecovery
Fighting:
Boxing
Tough - 3 DamRes, 1 EndRed
Ice Mastery:
Block of Ice - 1 Acc, 2 HoldDur, 1 EndRed
I think that's it for powers and slots. So now lets go over results. First off, Pinnacle was a ghost town last night for a while for people in their 40s. So I decided to tackle one of my missions solo. It was the mission with Bobcat, so lots of alley cats running around. Mission setting was unyielding, but it was old, so mobs were spawning even-con.
Minions were in groups of 5, with 0-2 lieutenants. One group, I could solo fine. Although it felt like I was taking constant damage (meaning that one minion in the group was constantly hitting me), the damage was low. However, turning on tough did not seem to lower their damage at all (I /bugged it, so we'll see, as tough seemed to work the rest of the night).
Decided to try to gather three groups to more accurately represent what I would encounter on a 6-8 person team. Got three groups, lost some due to the agro limit of 17, and herded them around a corner. First round of their attacks wasn't so bad, but then two of them got -Def attacks off, and that was the beginning of the end. Hit hoarfrost, but that merely delayed the enevitable. They hit me too fast and constantly to survive, and I took a trip to the hospital. Lesson learned: 17 alleycats is too much for one Ice tank alone. That's fine, probably what it should be.
So I clear the mish of alleycats, and spot Bobcat. Decide to see what happens. Pop two lucks, and charge in. She doesn't hit that hard (550 damage max I think), and between a combination of hoarfrost, hibernate, and green inspirations, I stay fighting her solo for a good 20 minutes. Can't really do too much damage to her since Ice Melee isn't exactly know for it. In the end, I have to run because eventually she'll wear me down. Leave the mission, feeling good.
As soon as I exit, I get a tell from a level 45 mind/emp controller, asking if I want to do a mission, I sign up. We eventually get the full team together as I described earlier. Go into mission, where there are a lot of freakshow. Events happen as described, except for one fact: in three of the fights that I took part in, I took down my defenses except for Wet Ice. Fared exactly as well in this situation as without my defenses. The dual fortitudes were covering my defensive needs plenty. Yet, when using FA, GA, tough, and CJ, without any fortitudes, I was dropped very quickly. Result of testing: other defensive powers were accomplishing more than my primary. Not a very good outcome, I think, as I'm not always going to have fortitude on me.
Second test: can scrapper do as good of a job as I can? Scrapper gets fortituded, and charges in. Agro gets spread around a bit more, but they win the fight in about as much time as it took them with me. If they had had another damage dealer, and not me, they probably could've done it faster. Result: my presence was not required on the team.
Third test (unitentional): See a group of freaks, don't see the shadow cyst crystal-thingy. Jump in, and several lesser bound nictus or whatever pop out of the crystal. Now there are more than 17 enemies, and I have agro on about 1/2 of them. Before I can even relay this information to the team, one of them is down. Two people ended up dying in that fight due to the agro limit. Though doing my job, I couldn't keep the agro off my team, which is supposed to be what we do best now. Disappointed that doing my job to the best of my ability wasn't enough, due to game mechanics. If we agroed a second group by accident, the battle became chaotic, as I could not hold the agro of both groups.
So those are the results of my tests are thus:
1) Solo, Ice tanks should be fine, if they have to slow down from what they were used to.
2) My presence on the team was not needed, which will lead to more of number 1.
3) Agro limits, while understandable so that you can't drag 100 enemies to one location, need to be raised to at least 2 max groups worth of enemies, or one group with max shadow cyst spawns.
4) Teaming will require that an Ice tank find a group that can actively increase his defenses. Like I said, when I wasn't buffed by teammates, I went down fast. If I had been with 7 Blasters, and tried jumping into the mobs first, I would not have lived through half the fights. <- Editted to put in number 4
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Talk about low expectations! That is not enough, that is simply not enough. Do you believe this is enough to continue play a character? Obviously you do 
Performance like that would not get you a second invite onto any team I was running and $diety knows I am not fussy.
*walks off in disgust*
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
[ QUOTE ]
So those are the results of my tests are thus:
1) Solo, Ice tanks should be fine, if they have to slow down from what they were used to.
2) My presence on the team was not needed, which will lead to more of number 1.
3) Agro limits, while understandable so that you can't drag 100 enemies to one location, need to be raised to at least 2 max groups worth of enemies, or one group with max shadow cyst spawns.
4) Teaming will require that an Ice tank find a group that can actively increase his defenses. Like I said, when I wasn't buffed by teammates, I went down fast. If I had been with 7 Blasters, and tried jumping into the mobs first, I would not have lived through half the fights. <- Editted to put in number 4
[/ QUOTE ]
I would add a caveat to number 4, that with the same buffing a scrapper or other AT would do better for bringing increased damage potential.
[ QUOTE ]
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank.
[/ QUOTE ]
Skill? Taking taunt and provoke and spamming them isn't really much skill. But more importantly, with the hard aggro cap, it simply can't be done.
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Come to the tankers aid because the tanker's damage output isn't serious enough to finish what he is holding very fast, or because the tanker needs that assistance because they would be defeated otherwise.
Right now Granite Tankers are the only tanks that contribute something unique. It's not a whole lot of fun for many people, but it is valuable, and in certain scenarios (AV's) difficult to replicate. The plan with an AV when a stoner around is clear. The plan with an AV given other team compositions isn't as clear. In fact, when a Granite is around, everyone knows what the plan is. When any other tank is around, well, when I see one, I am perfectly fine giving them a little deference, but I know that really they aren't doing much. But hey, if they are having fun, I'm not going to burst their bubble.
Now, I have seen some interesting playstyles for Invuln tankers now. But it doesn't mean they are using their primaries. Ding Dong Ditch is common, the tanker taunts, and runs around a corner which is the designated fire zone for the rest of the team. Taunt and hold is another, the tanker taunts the important enemies while other players keep the tauntee, so yes, the tanker is contributing, and in some odd situations can be very useful (the ding dong ditch can be pretty effective against some AV's), it's not something that a scrapper couldn't do if they decided to build themselves for that, which was a whole other problem with tankers/scrappers before. In a pinch, a scrapper is a fine tank with some support. In a pinch, a tanker is a sub-par scrapper with a lot of support.
I don't think we'll ever see a return to the days of the almighty tank, who can and did tank entire spawns. But honestly I think the game is ultimately better overall for it. Squishies can defintely take on a minion or two and its nice to see some previously "useless" powers gain more prominence. Increases the fun for all...
Except for the Tanker... I have numerous stories of these past couple weeks that mirror everything that's being said here - namely, fighting in instances where my absence would not be noted. Now then, that's not necessarily a terrible thing. You could make an argument that any AT in a team that knows what its doing could be swapped out for another, and it wouldn't hurt the flow of the battle. That speaks more as a strength of the CoH system than a weakness - There are no more "godmode" AT's that can trump everyone else's contribution to the team.
Now for my question: Where's our bone, States? What really irks me is that through all this balancing, we never got anything to counter it. I think the Tankers of Paragon could learn to live with the new system, and so could other AT's figure out that the Tanker cannot handle *everything* and they just might have to fend for themselves from a couple foes... but I would like to think of my Tanker as more than just a big sack of Hitpoints.
It's not so much a question of being "needed" on teams, as I said above you could really argue against "needing" any one AT (much like Defenders feel trumped over by Controllers in the high-end game). And I also do think the Tank contribution is still pretty good overall, but rather I would like to have something that makes we want to *play* my Tanker. Something that makes the game fun for the tanker. That's all most of us really want.
Drop -- 50 MA/SR - Pinnacle
Varia -- 50 Claws/Inv - Pinnacle
Rainfall -- 50 DB/WP - Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Tom, but after reading Statesmans post in this thread, I cannot let is pass without comment.
WARNING: The post made by Statesman regarding Tanking is a terrible example of Tanker skill. Please do not follow the above method unless you enjoy soloing or being kicked from teams a lot. There are plenty of people out there that will do so, so be warned.
If this is your example of Tanking, Statesman, then you need serious help. You are playing an Invul/Fire with access to at least two AoEs, a cone, Taunt, and (hopefully) Invinc, and the best you can come up with is 1/3 of the aggro in a 7 player mission set to Rugged??? Did you learn anything at all about Tanking in those 32 levels or is this one of those artificially PLed characters that you Devs play in your test environment? I can surely put forward one thing for the benefit of new Tankers that are looking for advice: Do NOT use this example as your guide to Tanking. I play a Broadsword/Invul Scrapper that can grab aggro and Tank better than you can with the support you want tanks to have now. And thats WITHOUT the passives that you pretty much destroyed in the last few issues. If I can do that on a Scrapper, why on Earth would I ever bring you to my team? There is a very old saying, States, that pertains to this post of yours here:
When the pupil is ready, the master will appear
Are you ready to learn how to Tank, States? There are plenty of us that can show you. I am glad that you have finally come to the forums seeking advice on your skills. Now, post your build so that we can help you and give you the advice you need. Believe me, the first time you really Tank, you really wont want to go back to what you are doing now. Take our advice and let us help you. Your teams will love you for it. And if you decide to disregard our advice and keep playing this way, then you might as well delete your "Tank" and choose another AT entirely. Your teams would be better off if you did. 
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Damn Myrm... that's cold. Spot on.. but cold.
[ QUOTE ]
Poster: Myrmydon
.
Sorry Tom, but after reading Statesmans post in this thread, I cannot let is pass without comment.
.
WARNING: The post made by Statesman regarding Tanking is a terrible example of Tanker skill. Please do not follow the above method unless you enjoy soloing or being kicked from teams a lot. There are plenty of people out there that will do so, so be warned.
.
If this is your example of Tanking, Statesman, then you need serious help. You are playing an Invul/Fire with access to at least two AoEs, a cone, Taunt, and (hopefully) Invinc, and the best you can come up with is 1/3 of the aggro in a 7 player mission set to Rugged??? Did you learn anything at all about Tanking in those 32 levels or is this one of those artificially PLed characters that you Devs play in your test environment? I can surely put forward one thing for the benefit of new Tankers that are looking for advice: Do NOT use this example as your guide to Tanking. I play a Broadsword/Invul Scrapper that can grab aggro and Tank better than you can with the support you want tanks to have now. And thats WITHOUT the passives that you pretty much destroyed in the last few issues. If I can do that on a Scrapper, why on Earth would I ever bring you to my team? There is a very old saying, States, that pertains to this post of yours here:
.
When the pupil is ready, the master will appear
.
Are you ready to learn how to Tank, States? There are plenty of us that can show you. I am glad that you have finally come to the forums seeking advice on your skills. Now, post your build so that we can help you and give you the advice you need. Believe me, the first time you really Tank, you really wont want to go back to what you are doing now. Take our advice and let us help you. Your teams will love you for it. And if you decide to disregard our advice and keep playing this way, then you might as well delete your "Tank" and choose another AT entirely. Your teams would be better off if you did.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to add that I can teach the Scranker way as well. The main difference in his approach and my approach is I pick what dies and how quick I will make it happen.
An Inv Scranker doesn't pick the weakest minion he can find that does S/L. A Scranker looks at the mob and picks the biggest threat to the team. If there is an AV guess who I go straight at after hitting haste/rage/build up/conserve power/2-3 lucks/1-3 rage/etc. It isn't going to be a minion. I'll be straight up in the face of anyone from Antimatter to Tyrant.
A cowardly tank is a shame on all the tanks great and small.
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
Some people only learn that way, da5id. 
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to add that I can teach the Scranker way as well. The main difference in his approach and my approach is I pick what dies and how quick I will make it happen.
An Inv Scranker doesn't pick the weakest minion he can find that does S/L. A Scranker looks at the mob and picks the biggest threat to the team. If there is an AV guess who I go straight at after hitting haste/rage/build up/conserve power/2-3 lucks/1-3 rage/etc. It isn't going to be a minion. I'll be straight up in the face of anyone from Antimatter to Tyrant.
A cowardly tank is a shame on all the tanks great and small.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, even the Scranks will take pity on States and help him. And I was pointedly leaving out the shame part, Gideon, but by all means add it in.
For all of you that want to get the Tanker community galvanized into helping each other, helping States may be the best way to do it.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
I didn't want to go there.
The thing is, that seems to be what States' expects to be the role of the AT. If you are doing more, then the AT may need to be taken down some more.
How much is enough, and what should you expect. Apparently the contribution that Statesman's Tank made was sufficient to meet expectations.
If that is the case, then the question becomes, is it worth playing a character that contributes that much (little)?
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't want to go there.
The thing is, that seems to be what States' expects to be the role of the AT. If you are doing more, then the AT may need to be taken down some more.
How much is enough, and what should you expect. Apparently the contribution that Statesman's Tank made was sufficient to meet expectations.
If that is the case, then the question becomes, is it worth playing a character that contributes that much (little)?
[/ QUOTE ]
He "tanked" 1/3 of a spawn for 7. He took up a little more than twice his share. On a team with any sort of non-melee AT i'd expect any scrapper to at LEAST do this much. I think it's pretty clear that states' grand vision for tanks is nothing more than scrankers who draw a little more aggro than the vastly more offensively effective scrappers.
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
[/ QUOTE ]
To other-than-Statesman, I would say that tanker hit points are nothing to sneeze at. Especially with Dull Pain slotted for 3 heals and 3 recharge (and not used until I could get the benefit of those heals!), I could absorb a lot of CoT fire pain with just 5-slotted Unyielding plus whatever else Invincibility and Combat Jumping added to the pot. It wasn't comfortable, and I didn't seek out much more aggro after the alpha unless someone was dying, but I could handle myself with one eye on making sure nobody else was dying and the other eye on my heath bar so I could Dull Pain instead of dying.
[ QUOTE ]
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
[/ QUOTE ]
To Statesman, a couple things: Why weren't you, with all your magnificent hit points and mez resistance, taunting the illusionists and ring mistresses, who had half the mezzes you were facing? Your only mez-proof teammate was also invul, so lack of Psi defense is no excuse. Damage doesn't keep your teammates from shooting back, and knockdown is quick to recover from compared to mind control. Is it to get the most out of your Primary that you only taunted the opponents you were toughest against? I'm confused here.
Second, when you "saw a teammate enter the red", how could you tell where to target to "Taunt the mobs off of them" or hit them if Taunt wasn't up yet? I usually approximate this by firing off an assist-targeted Taunt, but if they're focusing on a boss while minions are meleeing them to death it doesn't help much...
[ QUOTE ]
Well, no one was that familiar with their builds.
[/ QUOTE ]
At nearly level 50, they weren't familiar with their builds? Were they stupid, or were they still reeling from respeccing every issue? Or was something else going on? Can you be more specific about this?
[ QUOTE ]
The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's odd for a Controller. Much more common for a melee type to melee like he has to, and the adjacent spawn being too close to not aggro when this happens. This is especially an issue for Brutes, who have to make snap decisions about whether to "pull by getting noticed" and waste their Fury bar, or charge the group being attacked and hope the devs sited the next spawns over far enough away that he doesn't get the team killed.
[ QUOTE ]
The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Was this an extra spawn he shouldn't have been aiming at? Or did he attack too soon? And either way, why didn't/couldn't the character whose job it is to grab excess aggro--that is to say, your tank--save him?
[ QUOTE ]
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
[/ QUOTE ]
Usually? Meaning it wasn't safe for the tanker, of all people, to go in without all his powers recharged? Of course, sometimes you didn't need dull pain and would've been wasting your team's time waiting for it, and slowed down the leveling and the game experience...and mind you, Rest doesn't improve recharge times, so there's nothing to do but wait. Remember too, with ED the tanker can't significantly improve the recharge speed beyond those three recharges, even if he does want to sacrifice three SO's worth of Heal enhancement.
(As a side note, my tanker took Hasten primarily to speed up the recharge on the occasionally-only powers like Dull Pain or Unstoppable, not for his attacks, which have awfully long animations anyway. Even 3-slotted Build Up doesn't need Hasten to come back faster than I need it.)
One thing I've been thinking of for a while is some sort of a "mode switch", hopefully flexibile enough to let you switch to more offense at the expense of defense, more knockback when you're solo or among shooters and thus not protecting the mobs from your melee types thereby, etc. One thing I forgot to mention in my PM was that Kheldians already seem to have this kind of capability with their squid/dwarf forms, and Parry attacks and Granite Armor can do this to some extent, but we need it more generally. The other thing I should clarify is that we usually--especially post ED!--have the slots to essentially max out both the offense and defense that ED allows us, and what I'm talking about would go beyond that and actually cause a trade-off rather than a choice to improve one or the other.
(And really, the knockback/knockdown thing is probably a different problem anyway.)
One more thing, I should add, is that fortunately the CoV archetypes have few of these issues. They do have the issue of getting the aggro of all the mezzers (esp. the long-duration mezzers) focused on those with the resistance, and with spawns being so close together that you can't melee them without aggroing the next spawn over, and pulling them around a corner wastes a lot of Fury. In fact that one (especially "downstairs" in a cargo ship) is particularly nasty with CoV and Brutes, though Invincibility not working at range gives an Invul tanker a bit of a problem when he has to do the taunt-pull thang.
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is going to operate under the assumption that the changes will not be rescinded, and will explore methods of dealing with the reality of the situation as it is now.
[/ QUOTE ]
And hand that information over the nerf-devs? I pass. Tanks should be 20% or at worst 18% of the online hero (not CoV) playerbase, but it's more like 5% whenever I check.
I expect that percentage to drop to 1% or 2% once realm vs realm PvP really gets going. The devs won't care. Mission accomplished as far as they're concerned.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
Statesman thinks that tanking 33% of an 8-man spawn is satisfactory.
He thinks that tanking 100% of an 8-man spawn is too much.
He thinks that dropping to 33% of your hp while tanking an 8-man spawn of Carnies is a little more punishment than you should take, but acceptable.
He beleives that tanking double 'your share' of a spawn is good, and that a Tanker should be able to do that better than any other AT.
His avatar is a Tanker.
He thinks that losing 2 players during a mission is unfortunate but acceptable.
Tankers have the highest combination of defensive powers and hp of any AT, and the best aggro management tools of any AT.
...I find it hard to find fault with these numbers, actually. I was testing an Ice/Ice on Justice ("IceNine") up until I got caught up in the CoV testing, and I am by no means a 'career Tanker' (She's my highest Tanker at 22), but I was definitely having fun tanking.
I don't think that Tankers are perfect. I don't think they are done being developed as an AT. But I don't think the role he envisions for them is too far off the mark.
- A Tanker should not be a better soloer than a Scrapper. As good, maybe, but not better.
- A Tanker tanking for a team should take less damage from more aggro than any other single character. Yet, he should not be able to handle the whole spawn without help.
- A Team should want a Tanker along to take the aggro. But they should not need one so badly that they can't go out without one.
EDIT: Did I say Champion? I meant Justice.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Tom, but after reading Statesmans post in this thread, I cannot let is pass without comment.
WARNING: The post made by Statesman regarding Tanking is a terrible example of Tanker skill. Please do not follow the above method unless you enjoy soloing or being kicked from teams a lot. There are plenty of people out there that will do so, so be warned.
If this is your example of Tanking, Statesman, then you need serious help. You are playing an Invul/Fire with access to at least two AoEs, a cone, Taunt, and (hopefully) Invinc, and the best you can come up with is 1/3 of the aggro in a 7 player mission set to Rugged??? Did you learn anything at all about Tanking in those 32 levels or is this one of those artificially PLed characters that you Devs play in your test environment? I can surely put forward one thing for the benefit of new Tankers that are looking for advice: Do NOT use this example as your guide to Tanking. I play a Broadsword/Invul Scrapper that can grab aggro and Tank better than you can with the support you want tanks to have now. And thats WITHOUT the passives that you pretty much destroyed in the last few issues. If I can do that on a Scrapper, why on Earth would I ever bring you to my team? There is a very old saying, States, that pertains to this post of yours here:
When the pupil is ready, the master will appear
Are you ready to learn how to Tank, States? There are plenty of us that can show you. I am glad that you have finally come to the forums seeking advice on your skills. Now, post your build so that we can help you and give you the advice you need. Believe me, the first time you really Tank, you really wont want to go back to what you are doing now. Take our advice and let us help you. Your teams will love you for it. And if you decide to disregard our advice and keep playing this way, then you might as well delete your "Tank" and choose another AT entirely. Your teams would be better off if you did.
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Let me know when the classes start Myr, I will be there.
-K
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Statesman thinks that tanking 33% of an 8-man spawn is satisfactory.
He thinks that tanking 100% of an 8-man spawn is too much.
He thinks that dropping to 33% of your hp while tanking an 8-man spawn of Carnies is a little more punishment than you should take, but acceptable.
He beleives that tanking double 'your share' of a spawn is good, and that a Tanker should be able to do that better than any other AT.
His avatar is a Tanker.
He thinks that losing 2 players during a mission is unfortunate but acceptable.
Tankers have the highest combination of defensive powers and hp of any AT, and the best aggro management tools of any AT.
...I find it hard to find fault with these numbers, actually. I was testing an Ice/Ice on Champion ("IceNine") up until I got caught up in the CoV testing, and I am by no means a 'career Tanker' (She's my highest Tanker at 22), but I was definitely having fun tanking.
I don't think that Tankers are perfect. I don't think they are done being developed as an AT. But I don't think the role he envisions for them is too far off the mark.
- A Tanker should not be a better soloer than a Scrapper. As good, maybe, but not better.
- A Tanker tanking for a team should take less damage from more aggro than any other single character. Yet, he should not be able to handle the whole spawn without help.
- A Team should want a Tanker along to take the aggro. But they should not need one so badly that they can't go out without one.
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Kitsune, you seem to be new to tanking and Ice as well, so I will only say this. If an Invul Tanker cannot effectively handle 17 mobs (which is our current aggro control cap) with the tools we currently posses by level 32, then delete that character and play a completely different AT. You are doing any team you join a terrible disservice otherwise.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
If Jack is appearing in your town on his CoV tour, show up and bring him some wet noodles.
If you cant do that then start mailing him Raman with a note that says Instant Tank --- Just add water.
Getting 1000s of packages of Raman noddles in the mail will probably do more than [censored] onthe forums.
They did a similar campaign here in Texas were they sent the state legislature panties to protest a new tax. It proved very effective.
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Soloing is IN our future and I found that ED has actually made soloing easier for me.
We are however NOT out of place in a team. We still can take damage better than anyone AND hold off enemies. We just can't do it like we used to.
We can still alpha for the team. Example, I jump in and use footstomp for the first attack. That gets the mob's attention real quick. To manage the mob I pull my view screen back and watch which enemy goes where AND watch the HP of my teammates. I use taunt to pull in the stragglers that are pounding any teammates that are in trouble. I usually team with the same group of people so I know how much people they can fight at a time without dying.
If taunt is unavilable I run towards the group attacking my allies and get there attention with some sort of attack...which usually makes them follow me back to my original position.
We also need to understand that we are now at the same level of all the other AT's in that when we are teaming we will need their help as well. We CAN tank large groups but support maybe needed. One tatic my SG uses against AV's is for all support heroes keep my HP up...ignoring everyone elses...making it up to me to keep the AV's attention. So we need to learn that we just can't always do it alone which maybe the very reason we were "nerfed" or whatever in the first place.
I think we can still do our job...we just can't stand still and do it anymore though. In order to tank now we have to be more aware of what is going on in the battle than any other AT and act when we need to. With all the changes made to tanks we will need to be flexible to the point that our playing style for tanking MUST change, and so the other AT's won't see us as a burden, we have to be GREAT at handling our toons so people can see that we are STILL the best AT.
Take more support powers...I never had Dull Pain until I6, and it has saved me MANY times. Don't forget Tough, because I did.
Newbies at tanking need to understand that managing mobs is not as easy as the manual might portray it. You will have to be quite mobil to keep their attention...hmmm teleport could be helpful here now I think about it.
There is my take on it....it all boils down to change your mindset along with the game.
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I can't help but agree here. When I'm teaming, I am still 'The Point Man'. I take the initial attacks, and while my health bar moves now - that is what DP and inspirataions are for. I actually find myself using them now, instead of just ignoring them until something with Psi rolls around.
Fights go: Jump in, Footstomp, Hand Clap, Taunt. Use other individual attacks as they cycle through, repeating FS/HC/Taunt whenever possible.
Even against things that I am terrible against (Negative energy for example), I still can take more punishment than the others. (Lvl 50 Inv/SS vs Many lvl 51/52 Negative energy tossing Spirit Minions/lts/bosses). It was actually FUN.
And yes, I had finished my Respec to slot out for ED. Slotted the heck out of Hand clap (2 acc, 2 disorient, 1 end red, 1 taunt), Footstomp has a knockback enhancer in it now, and Taunt is 3 slotted (1 recharger, 2 taunt enhancers).
Defenses were ED compliant, and I even had a second slot in several passives. A bit of a waste, sure - but I just had nothing else to use them with.
I can still Tank, I just need help now and then. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, it's not how everyone likes to play, but .. unfortunately the may many people like to play is just not what the Devs want it to be. No more 'Taking on the whole Map and just keep them busy while friends pound the snot out of the bad guys'. I don't see that as a Bad Thing.
Freedom - Tiny - Lvl 50 SS/Inv, still having fun, still Useful.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
{edited- the bulk of this reply was in anger and without merit, please disregard}
This is a wonderful quote.
"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?" - Vincent van Gogh
{edited to say -- This is what tankers do. Attempt anything.}
Prof
I feel sorry for States sometimes.
He comes here and posts his results, probably in very good faith - and hoping to possibly help us to reach some AT determinations and move forward.
What he gets is a verbal beatdown that his tanking A) sucked and B) that the AT sucks. Well, both are probably true , but at least he tried. Maybe this will help to promote some future dialog amongst Devs and players about the seemingly widespread discontent amongst the Tankers AT.
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Well, so far you could still be a Stone Tank. There are downsides, but you still get that "Come on, hit me, hit me again, it tickles" feeling when you port right into the middle of that spawn and yell out your "yo mama" jokes.
Only question now, is will Stone face the nerf bat next?
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The day my slow, rooted, -50% recharging Stone tank is as flimsy as Invuln is the day I hang up my tanking boots...