Apologies for coming into this monster thread at the 11th hour...I heard about this "tanker test" in the Defender forum and was interested.
Was there a thread somewhere with the specifics of what teams were actually tested and the specific numbers (I think XP per hour was the objective measure used?) that resulted? I had a few ideas for testing conditions and the inclination to play devil's advocate.
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Apologies for coming into this monster thread at the 11th hour...I heard about this "tanker test" in the Defender forum and was interested.
Was there a thread somewhere with the specifics of what teams were actually tested and the specific numbers (I think XP per hour was the objective measure used?) that resulted? I had a few ideas for testing conditions and the inclination to play devil's advocate.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...o=&fpart=1
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?
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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.
However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.
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Aye, though i'd point out that rolling continuous damage was more important than anything else. At no point was defense really even tested.
Guys, I still team with tanks, and I feel your pain. Ice is still good, but Invuln, my Dark scrapper can take more beats.
Here's my ideas toward a brighter future for tankers:
Pool Powers.
OK, those of you who already know about this stuff, don't flame me. Some tanks don't. In the Fighting pool, Tough and Weave haven't been nerfed as bad as your sets. Health is now neccisary, wheras before it wasn't. Grab Maneuvers from Leadership if you need more defence love.
Plus that last one helps nearby teammates. Drop a few attacks for these. He11, in some cases, drop a primary for one. It won't make you as cool as you used to be, but with a little more damres, def, and regen, you won't be as easy to kill.
Good luck,
-Acanous
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?
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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.
However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.
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Aye, though i'd point out that rolling continuous damage was more important than anything else. At no point was defense really even tested.
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Exactly. Since, on a competent team on Heroic, defense is not important, whether a tank is on the team instead of another AT makes no difference.
However, this also means that other DEFENSIVE AT/Powersets aren't important either. Shield Defenders also fall into the "no difference" category, while Kinetics should be more important.
Once again, on Heroic, Damage is king. This is probably why CoV seems a lot easier to experienced CoH players and harder to folks coming in from "Triad" type games like EQ.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?
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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.
However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.
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Aye, though i'd point out that rolling continuous damage was more important than anything else. At no point was defense really even tested.
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Exactly. Since, on a competent team on Heroic, defense is not important, whether a tank is on the team instead of another AT makes no difference.
However, this also means that other DEFENSIVE AT/Powersets aren't important either. Shield Defenders also fall into the "no difference" category, while Kinetics should be more important.
Once again, on Heroic, Damage is king. This is probably why CoV seems a lot easier to experienced CoH players and harder to folks coming in from "Triad" type games like EQ.
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I just hope we never move to this "Triad" thing that everyone talks about.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
What worries me, Myr is that quite a number of posts in other topics seem to be urging that Tanks and Defenders become interdependent. Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.
You guys need to cut that out right now.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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What worries me, Myr is that quite a number of posts in other topics seem to be urging that Tanks and Defenders become interdependent. Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.
You guys need to cut that out right now.
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Nope actually the devs started this when they neutered tankers so that they could be more reliant on defenders and controllers. The whole point was to address "concerns" that defenders were perceived as not needed in the upper levels.
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defense is not important
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Hey........
Oh you mean the protective thing....ahh better.
Yeah on heroic the need for anyone to go aggro gathering is just not there. Any competent team can handle things anyway they like. It does make defensive sets like Force Fields less useful or even not useful at all on teams playing at heroic. Rad, Ken, and Emp all have great ways to up your damage so they will shine on that level. It also implies that on herioc since damage is king Blasters/Scrappers with a buffer or two should be the ideal. I think using /Fire did weight things a bit because as an AoE set it does do a better XP/minute deal then a less AoE built set. Still it does make things really odd. The issue is can they balance things for heroic and for Invincible levels? I tend to think they don't think so and thus they gave up on that and just went with this. Makes a mess out of ATs and defenses sets though.
Hmm...when trying to define the role of the tanker, should we look to trying to EXPAND that role or make our current role (meatshield) better?
I've never played EQ but I get the argument for NOT having the triad. I have no problem that any AT can solo/team at heroic, and that any AT can be substituted (to be successful not necessarily from a min/max perspective). I originally thought that invincibility diff should be the level where our AT's strengths and weaknesses shine, to encourage teaming, but now I'm not so sure.
But in practice, it would be suicide for my tanker to tank for an 8 man invinc mish composed only of dmg dealers and no troller/def if there are non-S/L dmging foes.
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Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.
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Er, Tom, I don't get it.
You DO realize that it was States himself that stated (paraphrasing here), "Tank Power +RES limits in Issue 5 exist so that Sonic Defenders have a job"?
What the players think or don't think is irrelevant. The "balance vision" is that Defenders/Controllers and the Melee classes should be interdependant.
I know that my Empath lost all her attack powers (and attack slots) to pick up the Fitness pool.
For most Defender builds that are somewhat Team-centric, a Level 40 and under toon can't put out enough damage to solo on Heroic.
I can't imagine that this is unintended...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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For most Defender builds that are somewhat Team-centric, a Level 40 and under toon can't put out enough damage to solo on Heroic.
I can't imagine that this is unintended...
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Don't troll. This isn't the Defender Forum.
plus you just got Castle looking at the bug list. Chill out.
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You DO realize that it was States himself that stated (paraphrasing here), "Tank Power +RES limits in Issue 5 exist so that Sonic Defenders have a job"?
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Why should a def have to protect a tank? Tanks and Defs do the same job. If anything, the sonics should say "Hey, we don't want to have to bubble those guys, its saves us end and allows to focus on the ones who need it and allows us to blast without having to worry saving everyone.
Prof
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You DO realize that it was States himself that stated (paraphrasing here), "Tank Power +RES limits in Issue 5 exist so that Sonic Defenders have a job"?
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Why should a def have to protect a tank? Tanks and Defs do the same job. If anything, the sonics should say "Hey, we don't want to have to bubble those guys, its saves us end and allows to focus on the ones who need it and allows us to blast without having to worry saving everyone.
Prof
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And I'm fairly sure if Statesman were to reply to your post, he'd cite a scenario of 7 tanks teaming with 1 defender, or some similar equation, which would end up the Defender feeling like their primary is " useless " or that they're " not contributing enough to the team ".
Of course, now they just changed who feels that way, and they didn't realy solve any problem, but hey.
The defenders are balanced now, so we're good!
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Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.
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Er, Tom, I don't get it.
You DO realize that it was States himself that stated (paraphrasing here), "Tank Power +RES limits in Issue 5 exist so that Sonic Defenders have a job"?
What the players think or don't think is irrelevant. The "balance vision" is that Defenders/Controllers and the Melee classes should be interdependant.
I know that my Empath lost all her attack powers (and attack slots) to pick up the Fitness pool.
For most Defender builds that are somewhat Team-centric, a Level 40 and under toon can't put out enough damage to solo on Heroic.
I can't imagine that this is unintended...
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But they're NOT interdependent on heroic. ANY team of ANY composition can do ANY non-AV mission on heroic.
A team of blasters and Kheldians can do a mission on heroic just fine. So can a few scrappers and some tanks. An Empathy DEF can solo the game to 50. The ATs are anything but interdependent on heroic.
On the other hand, they balanced it so that no one is USELESS on a team on heroic. That's what the DEF buff thing with tanks is all about.
Controllers dependent? What game are you playing? Controllers solo almost as well as blasters now on heroic.
However, the game is sort of boring when no one is in any danger of dying, which describes the typical mission on heroic for decent players.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
heh, better watch the tone of that post, there, Tom. Repeat after me:
"The game is properly challenging on Heroic. We don't need to be nerfed to make Heroic a challenge."
Sorry Devs, just had to do that 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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heh, better watch the tone of that post, there, Tom. Repeat after me:
"The game is properly challenging on Heroic. We don't need to be nerfed to make Heroic a challenge."
Sorry Devs, just had to do that
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"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Heroic! Hah! Sadly enough my controller solo's fine on Invincible, which to me is absolutely wrong! My Blaster can operate at Tenacious at best solo. My Defender dies instaltly above Heroic 
. My Tanker still operates at Invincible. My Scrapper, Unyielding. That dont sound like balance to me.
High Beam - 50 Blaster Energy/Ice - 1228 Badges
Munitions Mistress - 50 Mercs/Traps
Many Other 50's, Too Many Alts, All On Freedom
Just Because You Can, Doesn't Mean You Should!
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Controllers dependent? What game are you playing? Controllers solo almost as well as blasters now on heroic.
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So true. I started my Controller Alts entirely because the manual "suggests" that solo-ing with a controller might be hard. "Extreme Caution" is the phrase it uses. Now-a-days my controllers solo as well as any of my characters and a great deal easier than my defender.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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heh, better watch the tone of that post, there, Tom. Repeat after me:
"The game is properly challenging on Heroic. We don't need to be nerfed to make Heroic a challenge."
Sorry Devs, just had to do that
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Ooops. Oh crap.
"nothing to see here.....
these are not the nerfs you're looking for.....
move along"
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
It seems to me small teams work well though.
First off, let me introduce myself. I run an lvl 38 Inv/EM tank (hopefully lvl 39 by tomorrow afternoon). I solo missions on the 2nd difficulty level rather easily (thinking of taking it up 1 notch). I've never gotten Stamina but now am missing it. I've previously slotted almost everything for end reduction, but that seems to be making less of a difference lately (even though all my end slots are still up to date) so my plan is to respec this weekend. I'll drop Unstoppable (kills much more often then helps) and TP foe (helped me solo when I was lower lvl, had less defense powers, with less SO enhancements).
Back to the main topic. Duos, however, work exceedingly well. A decent Controller, or Def and I can wade through almost anything a very good speed. The other person need NOT be a Emp Def either. Yes, a controller with healing as a secondary, or perhaps a Rad Def with a Rad Aura healing is nice, but healing doesn't need to be the main thing of the other player. Some good buffing is often all I need. When there's just 2 of us, even at a decent difficulty level, there usually aren't THAT many spawns, so I can keep Agro off my teammate very well. They on the other hand, either pump me up enough, or take down the enemy enough to make me a true "damage dealer". I expect a good Controller/Blaster or Controller/Scrapper team are similar. They might even go a bit faster. Controller(or Def)/Tanker teams reduce the danger to the non-Tank to nearly zero though. The bad guy WILL get held either through control or agro. Anyway, I'm liking a good due these days better then large teams. If only I could get my wife to play CoH :-) I'd be in heaven.
Anyway, let me know if you think Tanks are working best on smaller teams these days.
--- Ollie
Professionally certified pessimism expert
Statesman is someone who shouldn't rap ever, even if he's trying to help people out. -IolitePhoenix
Check out my Infinity toons at the Vis Viva family web page.
The goal of tankers sounds to me, based upon Dev posts and others, to simply be a conduit or channel for defender heals as they draw aggro. They take a massive amount of damage to bring down, but cannot withstand 8 man (above heroic) spawns long enough to survive for the team, hence the need for defenders.
Frankly, I'd rather play as a scrapper in the same role and actually dish out damage too...
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending
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Anyway, let me know if you think Tanks are working best on smaller teams these days.
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Tanking for a small team is doable. Easy, for the most part. And fun.
I think its larger teams (6 maybe - definitely 8) on high difficulties (Invincible comes to mind) is where survivability becomes a major concern.
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Anyway, let me know if you think Tanks are working best on smaller teams these days.
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Tanking for a small team is doable. Easy, for the most part. And fun.
I think its larger teams (6 maybe - definitely 8) on high difficulties (Invincible comes to mind) is where survivability becomes a major concern.
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And AVs. I think AVs got adjusted to ensure I3 tanks couldnt solo them (with a steady diet of reds), then they weakened the tanks. Personally, on a invul/fire tank, I never did the damage required to get an AV down. Even when they couldnt kill me, it was a draw at best.
Large teams arent so bad, as they usually have other ways of winning. You cant herd and nuke for a large team, but typically large teams have multiple tanks (switch agro back and forth), many damage dealers (kill it before the tank goes down), controllers (held mobs dont do damage), or defenders (buff/debuffed, or healing the tank). So, I find that I can tank for a large team, but the other members have to be better than they once did. Unlike I3, their mistakes can now kill me, where once I was going to live, even if they screwed up (normally).
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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?
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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.
However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."