TomTrumpinski

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Oh crap, I know Tina. Now, should I tell her folks or not?

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heh, better watch the tone of that post, there, Tom. Repeat after me:

"The game is properly challenging on Heroic. We don't need to be nerfed to make Heroic a challenge."

Sorry Devs, just had to do that

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Ooops. Oh crap.

"nothing to see here.....

these are not the nerfs you're looking for.....

move along"

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Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.

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Er, Tom, I don't get it.

You DO realize that it was States himself that stated (paraphrasing here), "Tank Power +RES limits in Issue 5 exist so that Sonic Defenders have a job"?

What the players think or don't think is irrelevant. The "balance vision" is that Defenders/Controllers and the Melee classes should be interdependant.

I know that my Empath lost all her attack powers (and attack slots) to pick up the Fitness pool.

For most Defender builds that are somewhat Team-centric, a Level 40 and under toon can't put out enough damage to solo on Heroic.

I can't imagine that this is unintended...

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But they're NOT interdependent on heroic. ANY team of ANY composition can do ANY non-AV mission on heroic.

A team of blasters and Kheldians can do a mission on heroic just fine. So can a few scrappers and some tanks. An Empathy DEF can solo the game to 50. The ATs are anything but interdependent on heroic.

On the other hand, they balanced it so that no one is USELESS on a team on heroic. That's what the DEF buff thing with tanks is all about.

Controllers dependent? What game are you playing? Controllers solo almost as well as blasters now on heroic.

However, the game is sort of boring when no one is in any danger of dying, which describes the typical mission on heroic for decent players.

What worries me, Myr is that quite a number of posts in other topics seem to be urging that Tanks and Defenders become interdependent. Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.

You guys need to cut that out right now.

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The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition.

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WHAT!?!?!

I'm not even sure where to begin with his utterly absurd statement.

If that's the goal, you missed it by miles. You've created a sense of "balance" where if you don't have an absolutely ideal team composition, you'll get hosed. Your explanation then goes on to explain how any team can be "ideal" ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE DEFENDERS present.

And what good is "punchvoke" when he can't take the damage it brings down on him??

GAH!

What game are you playing Jack? It's not the same one.

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Your statement is ABSOLUTELY wrong as a general one.

ANY competent team of ANY composition can do ANY mission without an AV in it on *heroic* without ever being in any significant danger and get xp for it at a reasonable rate.

No one needs a Defender on that setting any more than they need a Tank, Scrapper, Blaster, Controller or Kheldian.

Well, Kali, I've been complaining that the game has been broken since November of 2004 because of easy early access to SOs.

Maybe it's a good thing that the DEVs incorporated ED rather than some of the stuff I suggested:

Making SOs and influence untradable

Making SOs only available by drops

Rolling back the value of all enhancements by 30-50%

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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?

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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.

However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.

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Aye, though i'd point out that rolling continuous damage was more important than anything else. At no point was defense really even tested.

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Exactly. Since, on a competent team on Heroic, defense is not important, whether a tank is on the team instead of another AT makes no difference.

However, this also means that other DEFENSIVE AT/Powersets aren't important either. Shield Defenders also fall into the "no difference" category, while Kinetics should be more important.

Once again, on Heroic, Damage is king. This is probably why CoV seems a lot easier to experienced CoH players and harder to folks coming in from "Triad" type games like EQ.

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Apologies for coming into this monster thread at the 11th hour...I heard about this "tanker test" in the Defender forum and was interested.

Was there a thread somewhere with the specifics of what teams were actually tested and the specific numbers (I think XP per hour was the objective measure used?) that resulted? I had a few ideas for testing conditions and the inclination to play devil's advocate.

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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...o=&fpart=1

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Poster: Circeus
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I've responded to the tanker issue - I've played builds myself, described my tactics. I'll gladly try different builds and circumstances...but all in all, I feel a tanker can still Tank.

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And I still call BS. His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?

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I call BS because in his example he didn't do anything my Blaster couldn't do. Strongmen don't have ranged attacks that I can remember so keep just out of melee reach and pepper his buddies with dmg.

If you see someone going after a person and their health goes red blast them and they will turn on you easily enough.

If a decent Blaster can do the same thing Statesman did with little risk then he wasn't doing anything that required a tanker to do successfully.

As for the tanking......

Well I can't recall any good examples where a Tank started taunting bad guys AFTER someone went red. Any decent or good tanks that I've played with tend to actively control aggro so that people don't take lethal damage not taunt after they are near dead or closer.

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Gideon, I really love pick-up teams. Since they're not quite as good, generally, as those who play together a lot, I adopted a technique when I scranked on those teams.

I would concentrate on initially taunting the spawn to keep them around me and then did as much damage as I could while keeping an eye on my teammates' health bars. When I saw a teammate fall into the yellow (usually through their own inexperience more than anything else), I would target through them and taunt the enemy they were focused on.

Nine out of ten times, this would pull away the guys giving them the most trouble and they'd recover in the breathing space they got.

So, there are a few of us who have done this. For the most part, it's not necessary in a good team unless things really start to go south.

On a large team, it's really not as possible now to keep aggro away from everyone on the team and survive at the higher difficulty levels. Therefore, more of the team *are* going to be falling into the yellow and red than they used to.

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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?

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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.

However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.

OK, in light of the changes to the INV, Ice and Stone sets posted yesterday on Test, we've got a few decisions to make:

1) With these changes being proposed but not live yet, should we figure that they're going to go live unchanged and go ahead with our testing on Nov. 26?

2) Has this changed the abilities of non-Fire Tankers enough that we can be confident that we now are survivable enough to be useful on a team? (I know, Fire got nailed, sorry guys.) In this case, do we really need to run the tests?

3) Can we assume that this is the change to Invincibility that we've been anticipating and now include INV tanks in the test?

If we're going to go ahead, I will start the recruiting this afternoon in a separate topic.

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In addition (and it may be a blow to the American ego), the North American market is essentially a test market for the Asian market where the real money is. CoH/CoV makes a bit of money right now, but ultimately the game is being groomed for Asian release where the economies of scale can be more profitable. It most likely doesn't matter if CoH/CoV ever gets close again to 200K with the North Atlantic subscriptions.

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In other words, they do NOT care about us. We are only beta testers for the Asian release.

Statesman, deny that if you dare.

I only wish I had realized this truth a year and a half ago. :/

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Now, come on Remus, let's be fair.

You're telling me that if you had believed that, you wouldn't have played? If you hadn't you would have missed at least a year when the game was very much to your liking.

Things change. If you're not having fun now, I can't argue with you. However, it would be silly to throw away all the time that you DID have fun.

That's like saying that if I had known, I wouldn't have married my psycho first wife. Sure, my life would have been easier, but I wouldn't have three very fine children.

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I have a level 22 ice/ss tank and playing it is both frustrating and fun. On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I often end up running away from fights leaving my team mates to fend for themselves. I hope they throw ice tanks a bone in the next release....

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If you have to run away, you need better teammates, and as my ex-paratrooper tanker-playing son says, "a brain and a plan".

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Noticed that too Tom. Stopped posting didn't see the point. I totally understand and agree with much of the feelings but it isn't getting us anywhere. Chatman thanks for trying too.

Nov 16 put your post up and we'll give this a whirl. I might try and do some this weekend if my pals are about to help, if not then I'll wait.

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DO, any good data is a good thing. They're already doing some interesting stuff with the AV thread. I'll make a hardcopy of the team construction thoughts so they're not lost if something happens to the thread.

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Agreed, thanksgiving is too far away, and I think most of the useful planning we can do 3 weeks in advance is already done. All this good testing talk has brought my testing/analysis motivation back up after all the dev stonewalling sapped my enthusiasm. I'll see if I can finish coding my TTL analysis package, and find some extreme cases to test.

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Ok so when is this happening? I have to download the updates from test so that might take a while and if possible I don't want to miss this event. I'll bring My lvl41 inv/axe and anything else I have that can help.

The Coh version of the 300 Spartans. Last march of the Tankers.

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Current plan is to start at noon eastern time on Saturday November 26th. I'll start constructing the team and setting the boundary conditions on the 16th in this forum.

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Let me know if any of my girls can help. I am @Iron Vixen globally in game. I am mostly on my villainesses on Virtue right now so global is the best way to plan. Or PM me here. I check in at least a couple times a day.

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Thank you so much, Vixen. The line-up of volunteers really reads like a who's who of the AT.

And to the two folks who posted the rants in the last two pages:

It's the easy way out to whine about how things are and say "what's the use?" It's a far better thing to try and support your claim and impart that information to the proper people even if it's ultimately futile. A good, fair fight is a glorious thing to behold and to partake in.

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Noticed that too Tom. Stopped posting didn't see the point. I totally understand and agree with much of the feelings but it isn't getting us anywhere. Chatman thanks for trying too.

Nov 16 put your post up and we'll give this a whirl. I might try and do some this weekend if my pals are about to help, if not then I'll wait.

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DO, any good data is a good thing. They're already doing some interesting stuff with the AV thread. I'll make a hardcopy of the team construction thoughts so they're not lost if something happens to the thread.

OK, looks like this thread is going to hell pretty fast.

If we can't get it out of the handbasket, I'm going to hold off until the 16th, when I'll start a new thread to organize the test team. I think that I've got about enough information to start designing the team requirements.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

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That wasn't constructive.

Statesman, I'm gonna apologize for this knucklehead in advance. Also, if you've looked over the test we are setting up, your invited to join us on those dates. Get with Da5id, Tom, or Circeus on it.

*The views of the poster do not reflect the views of the entire community, especially the pompous [censored] part.*

Prof

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Actually, joining us would be good for States. Then maybe he can actually see a Tanker in action and learn something.


Oh and Proft, wipe your nose and chin. That brownish color looks terrible on you, not to mention the....oder...

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Proft is right, that fella was raving.

As I said before, I am going to PM our final setup to States and see if he has any comments on it. My guess is he'll be spending Thanksgiving weekend with his family.

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When do we plan to this? Tonight? Who should I bring?

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Do which? The test that DO and I are going to organize is planned for Thanksgiving weekend. The other tests, I'm not sure.

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I really like Foo's AV concept. It might be an enjoyable experiment with our 50s. I might raise a note of caution on that one, however. If we find that a duo combination massively outperforms all others either the DEVs or other players may be tempted to call for nerfs.

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Back in the pre-I5 days the most efficient AV killers I every witnessed was a Defender/Blaster Duo. They were lethal. I didn't think they needed nerfing then and I wouldn't think they need nerfing now. I think Tanks need a boost, plain & simple.

On a different note I think you should come up with some scenarios that give tanks the utmost advantage. If you run some tests that are obviously biased in the tanks favour and the performance is still lack luster then you will have powerful amunition. If.

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That's an interesting thought. What would be tests that would be biased in the tank's favor? Pocket defenders?

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In either case, "give us higher defenses" or "give us more damage" may not be a viable answer.

I just don't want the total result of all the testing effort to boil down to "Told ya!"


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Well the funny part is we must do this as impartially as possible. So we can't be going in looking to prove anything. We are going in to test, if that test suggests a problem, ie removing the tank actually improves the groups performance, then we need to look to the tests and try and explain why followed by testing that hypothesis. Then after and if we find why we can work on how to fix it. We really should do our best not to go in expecting anything, I know it's not easy but it is best that way.

So I strongly suggest we not jump the gun and start coming up with fixes for a problem that at this point is only speculated at.

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One very interesting test I was thinking of is to drop the fifth wheel entirely from the run and see what happens.

I really like Foo's AV concept. It might be an enjoyable experiment with our 50s. I might raise a note of caution on that one, however. If we find that a duo combination massively outperforms all others either the DEVs or other players may be tempted to call for nerfs.

I have no preconceived notions on what we'll see right now. I do propose that before we run the tests, we PM the DEVs and ask them if anything we have in the test will bias it in their opinion. After all, if we're trying to show them what the situation is, we don't want them to diss it because of something stupid we overlooked.

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May I suggest

Fire / Nrg for Blaster (lots of AoE / Damage at all ranges)

Grav / Rad for Controller (avg. Smash/Lethal damage primary, secondary heals / debuffs)

Kin / Arch for Def (Good mix in primary, secondary will be smash/lethal and some fire)

Of course, provided these can be found/made in time. The preponderance of S/L damage in the Controller and Defender ought to help not skew the test by adding exotic damage types, right?

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There's a lot of alts out there, Cass. The last one might be a bit harder to find since we've only had Archery for two months. However, I don't think it's all that important, since I don't think the Defender secondary is really going to change things that much.

I am assuming you are suggesting them for the core team.

I'll pencil these in unless someone objects.

Now, we've got a choice of enemies:

Nemesis, DE, CoT and Rikti. Which should we go for?

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Don't forget that you can still have a 6-man mission with a pentad team ... just have one member drop out in the mission and that can be the "impartial observer" ^_^

Not to rehash, but what is the list of definites on the "replace tank with" list, and should one of them be an Illusion Controller, since they have unkillable tanking pets?

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Any controller post 32 is going to have some interesting pets.

One of the things we're going over now is trying to determine what the substitution list should look like.

Tenative Substitution List:

Empath Defender

Shield Defender--Sonic or FF


Controllers:

Illusion Controller--Multi pets with unkillable ones



Blasters:

Open to discussion

Scrappers:

Open to discussion

Kheldians with Dwarf form

Kheldians without Dwarf form.

Core team: All between levels 32 and 34. Mission will be set to match the highest level in the core team.

Claws/SR scrapper, level 32

Fire/Eng Blaster

Grav/Rad Controller

Kinetics/Archery Defender

This is a start, I can quote and expand on this in later days.

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No sonic here. Specifically using a sonic though could seem like we're weighting the test to prove our point. We might want to take what comes. Its more random and less looking let we're out to skew the results. If a sonic comes great, if not if our point is to be made and valid it shouldn't matter what defender. Unless we're saying that sonic defenders have taken the special place tanks used to have on a team.

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I think that a Sonic or FF Defender should definitely be one of the Powersets in the group that rotates in to substitute for the tank. One of the big contentions is that such a Defender makes everyone a tank.

This would seem to indicate that the Defender that is on the "core team" should be of a different type. It might save us some time to have a kinetic, but the shorter the mission, the less likely the spread of xp/min differences between the different runs, even if there are real problems.

(In other words, a 10% difference in xp/min speed is a lot harder to see if a mission lasts 10 minutes than if it lasts 25--you run into problems of noise.)

Oh, one thing I forgot to include. If we're going to do this in the 32-34 range, we need to decide on an enemy for the test, so that I can try to get a mission to run. Blinky missions would be best, probably. I would absolutely hate to have to copy my character over again just to get a mission that someone blew by killing off the last mob in a fit of enthusiasm.

Choices are:

Council, CoT, DE, Rikti, Crey, Nemesis and Freakshow.

I sort of lean towards Crey because of the different damage types, although if we could avoid Orenbega missions, CoT might be good, too.