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I really like Foo's AV concept.
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I got the entire Praetorian arc to do with my tanker yet. If you want we can line 'em up one right after the other. 
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Both my Rad Defender and Scrapper are available for this and are in the AV range.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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What should be the ATs and Powersets used in the "fifth wheel" slot to substitute for the tank? While I think it is a very good idea to see other support ATs placed in this slot, the role of damage-dealing should not be neglected.
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Dwarves, since they're designed for tanking.
I'd also suggest anyone with pets, as they're commonly used as pocket tanks.
Controllers/defenders with good mass holds/debuffs, so their efficiency at damage mitigation can be measured and compared against a tanker's efficiency at mitigating damage via refocusing of enemy attention on them instead of teammates.
And a scrapper to represent each of the scrapper secondaries, for the same reason.
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I really like Foo's AV concept.
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I got the entire Praetorian arc to do with my tanker yet. If you want we can line 'em up one right after the other.
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On my lv50 Blaster I'm sitting on Dreck (just got it, so don't you goi pointing fingers you), Giovanna, and I think Dominatrix.
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That's an interesting thought. What would be tests that would be biased in the tank's favor? Pocket defenders?
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Heavily in the tanks favor? Shield-type defenders with no access to heals or other regen type buffs. Maximize the survival difference between the tanker's 90%RES and (??) def cap and that of everyone elses.
ED is wrong you know it and you just dont care! All you Statesman fan boys can say what you want but this drastic change is something we should not put up with. States you took something good and turned it into CRAP with all your nerfs. You forced pvp down our throats with a take it or you can just leave attitude, guess what! I'm leaving! I have put up with your nerfs and changes to what was once a great game just because you wanted it to be what you consider fun, having to recpec your character every time you think we're not having fun is not fun! Bottom line your a pompas [censored]!!! and i'm taking my money some place else. Now go ahead fan boys rip into me all you want but sooner or later Statesman will get to you too!
That wasn't constructive.
Statesman, I'm gonna apologize for this knucklehead in advance. Also, if you've looked over the test we are setting up, your invited to join us on those dates. Get with Da5id, Tom, or Circeus on it.
*The views of the poster do not reflect the views of the entire community, especially the pompous [censored] part.*
Prof
What is the role of the tank?
Uh, to tank. Solo, you have no roll, so you don't have to worry. On a team, well you have teammates. Just hold as much aggro as you can. They may be squishy, but they can handle the guys you can't hold. It isn't your fault anymore if everyone dies. Do your job, and if someone dies, toss 'em an awaken and move on.
But for the love of all that's good and just, could people stop whining about this. Just go play your toons my fellow tank junkies.
"Don't worry. Be happy."
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
I have a 35 Kin/Rad defender which I would like to volunteer if you don't have a need for another inv/ss tank.
I think some discussion on the types of defenders and controllers that would be included in either the core pentad or as a tank substitue is needed. If we are not testing each type, then perhaps we should chose those build types which would highlight the potential difference in team performance when subbed in for the tank.
Maybe because I play one and am biased, but, I think a Kin/* defender should be considered as one of the Tank subbing ATs. I feel this way because a Kin/* defender makes a tremendous difference to the total core functionality of the entire team. A Kin/* increases every teammates Recharge Speed, End Regen Speed, and Damage Output. Faster greater damage out equals mobs dead quicker. By supercharges all aspects of the entire teams attacks, a Kin/* lessens the need for any long-term aggro control. A lot of the alpha strike damage can be mitigated by the initial use of FS which will lower its damage total.
The Kin/* defender in the test should have at least the following primary powers: transfusion, syphon power, syphon speed, increase density, speed boost, transference and fulcrum shift.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
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That wasn't constructive.
Statesman, I'm gonna apologize for this knucklehead in advance. Also, if you've looked over the test we are setting up, your invited to join us on those dates. Get with Da5id, Tom, or Circeus on it.
*The views of the poster do not reflect the views of the entire community, especially the pompous [censored] part.*
Prof
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Actually, joining us would be good for States. Then maybe he can actually see a Tanker in action and learn something. 
Oh and Proft, wipe your nose and chin. That brownish color looks terrible on you, not to mention the....oder...
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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That wasn't constructive.
Statesman, I'm gonna apologize for this knucklehead in advance. Also, if you've looked over the test we are setting up, your invited to join us on those dates. Get with Da5id, Tom, or Circeus on it.
*The views of the poster do not reflect the views of the entire community, especially the pompous [censored] part.*
Prof
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Actually, joining us would be good for States. Then maybe he can actually see a Tanker in action and learn something.
Oh and Proft, wipe your nose and chin. That brownish color looks terrible on you, not to mention the....oder...
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Proft is right, that fella was raving.
As I said before, I am going to PM our final setup to States and see if he has any comments on it. My guess is he'll be spending Thanksgiving weekend with his family.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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See, and when I read: Tanker = Frontline Fighter in the manual, I don't think of them as "support ATs." But then again, my only other MMO experiance was about 9 months of SWG, so I don't have Tank=Meatshield ingrained into my brain.
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Ah! See a lot of us thought we were front line troops as well, but Statesman came along and put us right on that one. We are a Support AT (apparently)
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Support sucks. We are Tanks not tanks... notice I captialized Tank. Tank is the CoH archetype. tank is the MMO class/role of meatshield. I want to be a Tank not a tank.
I wanna be a fighter... one who is touger than he is strong. Slow and powerfull with a heavy fist and slow feet. The big guy with tough armor and a strong arm. I dont want to be a wall of hitpoints walking around screaming obscenities at folks and relying on people to keep me alive.
I want to Tank not tank.
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That wasn't constructive.
Statesman, I'm gonna apologize for this knucklehead in advance. Also, if you've looked over the test we are setting up, your invited to join us on those dates. Get with Da5id, Tom, or Circeus on it.
*The views of the poster do not reflect the views of the entire community, especially the pompous [censored] part.*
Prof
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Actually, joining us would be good for States. Then maybe he can actually see a Tanker in action and learn something.
Oh and Proft, wipe your nose and chin. That brownish color looks terrible on you, not to mention the....oder...
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Oh cmon Myr, you know we finally get a dev in here after many months, no sense running him off with some angry new guy raving at him. Its ok, I know you were joking about the last part. 
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We are Tanks not tanks... notice I captialized Tank. Tank is the CoH archetype. tank is the MMO class/role of meatshield. I want to be a Tank not a tank.
I wanna be a fighter... one who is touger than he is strong. Slow and powerfull with a heavy fist and slow feet. The big guy with tough armor and a strong arm. I dont want to be a wall of hitpoints walking around screaming obscenities at folks and relying on people to keep me alive.
I want to Tank not tank.
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Well, some of us are 6'5" masochistic dominatrices, light and nimble on our feet, who run into the middle of a sea of pain and misery, and deal a little back out, simply because that's what we enjoy.
But that's neither here nor there.
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Hey BL, haven't seen ya in a while. At this point, I honestly think a Brute is the best way to go. If you picked up CoV go get your SMASH!! on.
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Heh Nozy - I have picked up CoV but up to now haven't started a Brute, been enjoying a Stalker as a change of pace but I will be starting a brute over the next couple of days and see how it plays out - if it plays like I think it will then I will be re-rolling the Lion as a Brute because the playstyle seems to be closer to a comic book brick than Tank ever will be, just have to hope I can bring him over to the side of good at some stage (because the British Lion is a hero not a villain) and find someone willing to take all the influence that the Lion picked up over 50 levels.
As an aside from my brief time in CoV I feel that the Devs have really learnt from the mistakes they made with the CoH AT's because everyone brings damage to the table, no-one is a cripple that must team with someone else to level. It's a subtle change in the team dynamic but people still team even though they don't have to and in my opinion represents the team dynamic of supers better than the CoH dynamic.
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Hey BL, haven't seen ya in a while. At this point, I honestly think a Brute is the best way to go. If you picked up CoV go get your SMASH!! on.
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Heh Nozy - I have picked up CoV but up to now haven't started a Brute, been enjoying a Stalker as a change of pace but I will be starting a brute over the next couple of days and see how it plays out - if it plays like I think it will then I will be re-rolling the Lion as a Brute because the playstyle seems to be closer to a comic book brick than Tank ever will be, just have to hope I can bring him over to the side of good at some stage (because the British Lion is a hero not a villain) and find someone willing to take all the influence that the Lion picked up over 50 levels.
As an aside from my brief time in CoV I feel that the Devs have really learnt from the mistakes they made with the CoH AT's because everyone brings damage to the table, no-one is a cripple that must team with someone else to level. It's a subtle change in the team dynamic but people still team even though they don't have to and in my opinion represents the team dynamic of supers better than the CoH dynamic.
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Speak for yourself Meat Bag, i only team to increase the pool of minnions i have to toose at my aversaries...you you /happen/ to benifit from my manuvers, forcefield generator and triage becon so be it, but i am not here to hel you meat bag. You are there to take the agro for me liike a good little pet
((sorry channeled my Mastermind a bit there...Gina doenst like to sit back i nthe old head :P)))
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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If you run some tests that are obviously biased in the tanks favour and the performance is still lack luster then you will have powerful amunition. If.
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That's an interesting thought. What would be tests that would be biased in the tank's favor? Pocket defenders?
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I was thinking things like 14 melee based s/l etc etc.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank.
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This is an absolute load of crap. As soon as a tank comes on here and says "I did it" you'll nerf. You nerf as soon as someone claims they did something amazing.
The cycle is this:
1) Amazing claim from uberskillzman
2) Devs notice and grin with glee
3) Devs play on some strange in-house system for a few months to come up with "numbers"
4) Someone says "balance" and all the fanboi's nod
5) Devs say "test before complaining"
6) Test server is down for a week and the change is pushed to live
7) The AT of uberskillzman gets it up the tailpipe
Seven steps to turdville.
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Soloing is IN our future and I found that ED has actually made soloing easier for me.
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Not to be blunt but... LIAR!
How does going from an effective 6-slot to a less effective 6-slot make you more effective at soloing? What in the frackin world are you slotting in your passives to bring your defenses back up to snuff?
I think what you meant to say is "because I was forced to rebuild my tank, I stumbled onto what everyone else is now playing" or "because every tank is the same now, I can just do what everyone else does."
That's not the same.
But I digress, no Dev gives a flying fart about how much their players HATE enhancement "diversity" (really, could you have chosen a word that wasn't so obviously placed to evoke happy-joy feelings of cultural equality... VOMIT!) while they're sitting on top of their piles of money rubbing peanut butter on their nipples... or whatever it is insane people who crap on your game do in their spare time.
If you're getting a sense of loathing for a certain group of people here, then you're dead on. I'd post numbers and tests and more logical arguments, but that's been done to death and the net change is zero. All I'm left with is the bitter disappointment the Dev-olvers have turned out to be.
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Heh, I find it funny how people go from "Statesman knows too little about his own game!" to "Statesman knows too much about his own game!"
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And I find it funny someone actually lumps all posters into "people" and finds humor in different opinions as though "people" should all be one cohesive thought unit.
Or was that post just an attempt to belittle a dissenter?
OK, looks like this thread is going to hell pretty fast.
If we can't get it out of the handbasket, I'm going to hold off until the 16th, when I'll start a new thread to organize the test team. I think that I've got about enough information to start designing the team requirements.
Thanks to everyone for the input.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
Noticed that too Tom. Stopped posting didn't see the point. I totally understand and agree with much of the feelings but it isn't getting us anywhere. Chatman thanks for trying too.
Nov 16 put your post up and we'll give this a whirl. I might try and do some this weekend if my pals are about to help, if not then I'll wait.
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Noticed that too Tom. Stopped posting didn't see the point. I totally understand and agree with much of the feelings but it isn't getting us anywhere. Chatman thanks for trying too.
Nov 16 put your post up and we'll give this a whirl. I might try and do some this weekend if my pals are about to help, if not then I'll wait.
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DO, any good data is a good thing. They're already doing some interesting stuff with the AV thread. I'll make a hardcopy of the team construction thoughts so they're not lost if something happens to the thread.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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Noticed that too Tom. Stopped posting didn't see the point. I totally understand and agree with much of the feelings but it isn't getting us anywhere. Chatman thanks for trying too.
Nov 16 put your post up and we'll give this a whirl. I might try and do some this weekend if my pals are about to help, if not then I'll wait.
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DO, any good data is a good thing. They're already doing some interesting stuff with the AV thread. I'll make a hardcopy of the team construction thoughts so they're not lost if something happens to the thread.
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Agreed, thanksgiving is too far away, and I think most of the useful planning we can do 3 weeks in advance is already done. All this good testing talk has brought my testing/analysis motivation back up after all the dev stonewalling sapped my enthusiasm. I'll see if I can finish coding my TTL analysis package, and find some extreme cases to test.
mmm, Bookends? Yes, I think Tanks make good bookends now.
The question is, why would you play most of the Tanker powersets now and why would you waste your time on the few that still work when you know they will be nerfed also within the next month or so? All but one of my Tanks are now unplayable and this one will have it's one saving grace nerfed soon also and then it will be unplayable. Sad, it's a level 40 Tank that I have struggled to get to level 40 because playing a Tank in CoH is always being changed. This was my first created toon from CoH's 2-day headstart back in 4/04 and back then Tanks could not be defeated, but did no damage so a study in boredom. Now Tanks do minor damage and die, so a study in futility now. Hey stick around, in 10 years I am sure Cryptic will make a game.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
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You have a point but I was thinking along the lines of the Tanks survivability due to hit points from a lucky alpha. However your point stands.
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It's an interesting question. I mean, that's kind of what the testing is all about isn't it? If we have a hard time thinking of tests that are biased in a tank's favor, that says a lot in itself.
I'm thinking that maybe Lusca would be a test in a tanks favor. It can hit hard with area attacks and ranged attacks. I wonder if we can get the devs to give us a pet Lusca to play with for awhile?
Another possible test in a tanks favor might be a team made of:
1 Tank
2 Peacebringers
1 Blaster or Scrapper
1 Defender
The reason is that the team has lots of damage, but with 2 PBs you'll have voids, quants, and maybe a crystal or 2. I think that team will be far better off with a tank than any other AT.
Or maybe some of the TFs/Trials lean heavily in a tank's favor. Every team I can remember doing a TF/Trial with has wanted a tank.