I have a level 22 ice/ss tank and playing it is both frustrating and fun. On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I often end up running away from fights leaving my team mates to fend for themselves. I hope they throw ice tanks a bone in the next release....
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I have a level 22 ice/ss tank and playing it is both frustrating and fun. On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I often end up running away from fights leaving my team mates to fend for themselves. I hope they throw ice tanks a bone in the next release....
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If you have to run away, you need better teammates, and as my ex-paratrooper tanker-playing son says, "a brain and a plan".
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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I have a level 22 ice/ss tank and playing it is both frustrating and fun. On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I often end up running away from fights leaving my team mates to fend for themselves. I hope they throw ice tanks a bone in the next release....
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If you have to run away, you need better teammates, and as my ex-paratrooper tanker-playing son says, "a brain and a plan".
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Agreed. 
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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I have a level 22 ice/ss tank and playing it is both frustrating and fun. On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I often end up running away from fights leaving my team mates to fend for themselves. I hope they throw ice tanks a bone in the next release....
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If you have to run away, you need better teammates, and as my ex-paratrooper tanker-playing son says, "a brain and a plan".
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Agreed.
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Yeah, I know. I love being forced to think when I'm goofing off. That's the epitome of "fun", or something. For someone else.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Yeah, I know. I love being forced to think when I'm goofing off. That's the epitome of "fun", or something. For someone else.
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^_^ /agree
My tank used to be my "kick out the jams and have fun" character (unless my SG needed something serious done ~_^). *sighs* Oh for the day ...
OK, in light of the changes to the INV, Ice and Stone sets posted yesterday on Test, we've got a few decisions to make:
1) With these changes being proposed but not live yet, should we figure that they're going to go live unchanged and go ahead with our testing on Nov. 26?
2) Has this changed the abilities of non-Fire Tankers enough that we can be confident that we now are survivable enough to be useful on a team? (I know, Fire got nailed, sorry guys.) In this case, do we really need to run the tests?
3) Can we assume that this is the change to Invincibility that we've been anticipating and now include INV tanks in the test?
If we're going to go ahead, I will start the recruiting this afternoon in a separate topic.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
1) Yes, I remain of the belief that it hits test almost exactly as it will hit live. (It's the regenner part of me.)
2) Sure. It seems like a good buff for all, better for some than others and that in itself is note worthy. If we agree that all tanks should be balanced with each other and agree that the current ranking might be:
Stone > Fire - Inv > Ice then this change could certainly push it to Stone > Inv - Ice > Fire. We also don't know what the change to EA and Invinc fully are, they could be another buff or actually in the end be a nerf.
3) I would say yes. The reduced rate it checks is likely an attempt to prevent stacking. If it works it makes Inv game again.
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OK, in light of the changes to the INV, Ice and Stone sets posted yesterday on Test, we've got a few decisions to make:
1) With these changes being proposed but not live yet, should we figure that they're going to go live unchanged and go ahead with our testing on Nov. 26?
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Unless there are some major bugs, I don't think there will be much difference between Live and Test.
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2) Has this changed the abilities of non-Fire Tankers enough that we can be confident that we now are survivable enough to be useful on a team? (I know, Fire got nailed, sorry guys.) In this case, do we really need to run the tests?
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I need to rerun some numbers buffed and unbuffed vs other ATs once we have some solid numbers for Invince, but my gut says the DP change either closes the gap by a fair margin, or eliminates it all together. So the answer is, we don't know yet, it will require testing (and is very dependant on the net buff/nerf to Invince/EA) but it does help to alleviate a lot of concerns I personally had.
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3) Can we assume that this is the change to Invincibility that we've been anticipating and now include INV tanks in the test?
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I believe so due to the note about the change in the rate at which Invince is activated. I am curious as to the relative and absolute magnitudes of EA and Inv changes were. If we can get a crew together for a test tonight in the Arena to sort this out it would be nice.
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If we're going to go ahead, I will start the recruiting this afternoon in a separate topic.
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Let's get it on!
EDIT- We should definately be testing the viability of Fire. It was already lower than ice in most cases post I6, and now is most certainly the bottom of the defensive barrel.
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Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Well, seeing that Invinc has been "fixed" how do you think you would perform now?
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Statesman's post:
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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So let's break it down:
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
We manage aggro best? Our taunt of 5 villains is better than a controller's hold of 16? :hmm:
Take the brunt of the spawns? We'll come back to this.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
"Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible...". So apparently tanking is not for the unskilled player that just thinks it sounds like a cool AT.
And, I guess our job as a tank is to simply stand there and keep a few of the minions occupied while everyone else kills the rest, then have the rest of the team help us eliminate the ones we are keeping busy. In other words, we are not much more in his view than a mobile defense inspiration. Good to know he's got such a high view of us.
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
He would taunt the Strongman? That is the one in the group that is least likely to hurt him. He even says so. I don't consider my role as a tank to be attack the safest, but instead to be attack the opponent most likely to hurt the team. This generally means lts or bosses. Yes...even against Carnies.
"I'd usually catch some other minions and lts." - he sounds like this wasn't intentional...just a side effect of the taunt power.
1/3 of the spawn? Remember how I said we'd come back to his comment about taking "the brunt" of the attack? I consider 1/2 or better to be the brunt (ie: the bulk, the most, etc.). I don't think 1/3 is the brunt at all.
As far as the last line: That's mighty big of you Statesman. Hope you didn't tax your defenses too much helping out others like that. <_<
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong...is he blaming the rest of the team? "It's not my fault...they sucked!" Yeah...um...grow up. He's saying they are in their 30's and not familiar with their builds. Is he insinuating they were power leveled? :hmm:
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
Musta been those times he was so selflessly helping his teammates because they sucked so bad.
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Does this strike anyone else as thinking tanks are simply something to keep some mobs busy while the rest of the team "works"? I feel like he thinks that tanks are the equivalent of that guy in your office/class that gets the busy work because he isn't really able to handle the work the other people are doing.
If by some chance you happen to read this, Statesman, then know this:
As a tank, I didn't pick and choose my opponents leaving the hardest for the rest of the team to handle...I jumped in the middle of the spawn and took all the aggro I possibly could. Yeah...I died a fair amount doing this (even pre I5 and ED), but that was my role...to protect my team. I really did take the brunt of the spawn's attack...not just 1/3.
I did everything I could to prevent my teammates from going red in the first place, not simply waiting for them to and THEN taunting the villains.
If someone on my team died, I took it personally...I didn't blame them for not knowing how to play their characters.
So I guess you and I have a different idea of what tanks should be. I think the tank should be the tough hero that protects his team, and you think it should be mobile damage mitigation. Unfortunately for us, you are in control, so you win out. I'll be sure to let my future teams know that my job is to hold the aggro of only 5 guys while they take out the rest, and that I will expect them to help me when they are done. I'm sure that'll go over real well. Bet I'll be real popular. 
I know how you feel Val. The problem is, our vision of what a tanker should be does not mesh with PvP. For a tanker to be able to leap into a spawn for an 8 man team and have a better than average chance of survival, his damage mitigation would make him severely unbalanced in PvP. It's clear to me that the meatshield role has no place in the current scheme of things, as there are much more efficient ways to deal with PvE enemies. Heck, it's plain as day that , slot-for-slot, you are better off slotting your attacks than Invuln's passives.
But I digress, the goal was to point out what we felt was wrong with Statesman's post. For starters, the comment about a skilled tanker being able to corral all the mobs: I guess we better hope spawns contain 17 or fewer enemies, what with the hard cap on aggro and all. What's the point of a hard cap? AoE powers were already nerfed, thus removing the incentive to herd. So why implement a cap on aggro, the role that Statesman himself said we are supposed to shine at? This is the one nerf that really ticks me off beyond all others.
As for taking the brunt of the spawn, I'll just nod in agreement with what you said. I would hate to think all I brought to the table was the ability to occupy 1/3 of a group of enemies with a character whose primary function is supposed to be meatshied.
So to wrap it up, Dull pain was the saving grace of his Invuln tanking experience.....a heal. Kinda rubs against the whole "Invulnerability" concept eh? Oh that's right, it brings us back to the whole "can't be balanced in PvP" crux.
In closing, I can't help but go off on a rant regarding the role of tankers in this game. The following is only my opinion. Tankers in PvE are really nothing more than sheperds for the ignorant enemy AI. Their purpose is to occupy the mobs while the team pummels them with impunity. The whole purpose of tankers in the PvE game hinges on this game mechanic called "Aggro", which can just as easily and more effectively be dealt with through other means (i.e. debuffing, holding, out-right defeating with attacks)
In the PvP game, tankers have even LESS of a raison d'etre (pardon any misspelling there, my french is rusty 
). When facing real people, "aggro" doesn't exist. Sure, you can fire off Taunt and lock an enemy onto you, but that's pretty much the extent of what a tanker does in PvP. Otherwise, the tanker just tries to beat the crap out of the enemy a la scrappers or brutes. And if that is your goal, you are far better off just rolling a scrapper or brute. In short, tankers are collateral damage from a lack of forethought on the devs part. They should just finish nerfing our defenses, give us a fury bar, and make the transformation complete.
Sorry for the rant, it's been a long day.
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I know how you feel Val. The problem is, our vision of what a tanker should be does not mesh with PvP. For a tanker to be able to leap into a spawn for an 8 man team and have a better than average chance of survival, his damage mitigation would make him severely unbalanced in PvP. It's clear to me that the meatshield role has no place in the current scheme of things, as there are much more efficient ways to deal with PvE enemies. Heck, it's plain as day that , slot-for-slot, you are better off slotting your attacks than Invuln's passives.
But I digress, the goal was to point out what we felt was wrong with Statesman's post. For starters, the comment about a skilled tanker being able to corral all the mobs: I guess we better hope spawns contain 17 or fewer enemies, what with the hard cap on aggro and all. What's the point of a hard cap? AoE powers were already nerfed, thus removing the incentive to herd. So why implement a cap on aggro, the role that Statesman himself said we are supposed to shine at? This is the one nerf that really ticks me off beyond all others.
As for taking the brunt of the spawn, I'll just nod in agreement with what you said. I would hate to think all I brought to the table was the ability to occupy 1/3 of a group of enemies with a character whose primary function is supposed to be meatshied.
So to wrap it up, Dull pain was the saving grace of his Invuln tanking experience.....a heal. Kinda rubs against the whole "Invulnerability" concept eh? Oh that's right, it brings us back to the whole "can't be balanced in PvP" crux.
In closing, I can't help but go off on a rant regarding the role of tankers in this game. The following is only my opinion. Tankers in PvE are really nothing more than sheperds for the ignorant enemy AI. Their purpose is to occupy the mobs while the team pummels them with impunity. The whole purpose of tankers in the PvE game hinges on this game mechanic called "Aggro", which can just as easily and more effectively be dealt with through other means (i.e. debuffing, holding, out-right defeating with attacks)
In the PvP game, tankers have even LESS of a raison d'etre (pardon any misspelling there, my french is rusty ). When facing real people, "aggro" doesn't exist. Sure, you can fire off Taunt and lock an enemy onto you, but that's pretty much the extent of what a tanker does in PvP. Otherwise, the tanker just tries to beat the crap out of the enemy a la scrappers or brutes. And if that is your goal, you are far better off just rolling a scrapper or brute. In short, tankers are collateral damage from a lack of forethought on the devs part. They should just finish nerfing our defenses, give us a fury bar, and make the transformation complete.
Sorry for the rant, it's been a long day.
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No apologies needed. Many agree with you. I am one of those. My biggest complaint is being "FORCED" into this. No choice. All so they could put out another game "CoV" on the shelves. Okay "stand alone expansion". HAHAHAHA. Another game. It's all about the bucks.
Hey, maybe they'll do another Winter Lords thing so the new players can level their characters up. HAHAHA.
Stone, as a primary, is tough to live with. I have taken EVERY available defense, only 2 attacks (3 slotted accuracy, and nothing else), and taunt. I finally picked up swift around 18. Level 19.8 now. Even with numerous slots devoted (with +2 lvl DOs, as I can) to defense, I still faceplant fairly regular.
I have no travel power. Primary, secondary, and fitness pool, for health.
The good news: If I fall the entire team goes green to red immediately. This shows that I was, indeed mitigating crazy damage. Invuln? Still standing when I fall.
I am useful, I am just finding my limits. We all should.
The problem is, the Tanker is tough to balance with the other ATs. The Devs vision works in a gameplay sense (mostly), but isn't the role people pick up Tankers for.
According to Comics, Tankers should survive the most damage and do the most damage. But then, what is the Scrappers's role if they do less damage and survive less?
If Tankers can handle aggro better than a Controller (and being able to constantly taunt groups of 5 guys is better than an area Hold you can fire off once per 3 minutes...the Controllers took a bullet for the Tankers), then Controllers have no role...especially since they are squishy and do less damage than Tankers without Containment.
Maybe Tankers should be able to protect their teammates better...like Defenders. But then, that diminishes the Defender's role, and Defenders already complain that Controllers can do their jobs.
It's tough to figure it out, and if it's taking the Devs a long time, I don't blame them.
Keep in mind that Tankers should be desirable for a team, but not any more necessary than any other AT. If you don't have a Tanker available, you should be able to recruit an extra Scrapper, just like you can use a Tanker to sub for a Controller, Scrapper, or even Defender (assuming you change your Tactics to match).
Some things, however are a given: most Tankers should be somewhat more survivable than they are.
I still suggest that Tankers be given a small suite of weak Defender-like powers that work as melee range PBAoE auras. I propose that they be given powers that scale up as they take on more teammates. Things like this will vastly increase the utility of Tankers without increasing their overall power back to ridiculous levels.
Tankers could be the Jacks of all Trades that can fill any role but the Blasters' in a group.
...just a thought.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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According to Comics, Tankers should survive the most damage and do the most damage. But then, what is the Scrappers's role if they do less damage and survive less?
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I think the problem is that the Scrapper is what should've been the Tanker from the get go, or the Brute is. This creature that can wade into hordes of even-level enemies doesn't exist in MMOs or comics.
Ask yourselves: does Wolverine or Batman do more damage than Colossus or Superman?
The difference between Scrapper and Tanker in comics is one of skill/training vs. brawn/resillience.
In a game I made, Scrappers would be melee debuffers with critical hits that are self-buffable. Think Parry or Divine Avalanche with a +crit. Tanks would be what Brutes are, basically.
The issue with Tanks has always been sticking an MMO concept on the juice and shoehorning it in.
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The problem is, the Tanker is tough to balance with the other ATs.
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It certainly seems to be doesn't it. However I really don't know why?
My chief causes for complaint currently are:
1) The imbalance between damage types. I don't mind having negative protection from Psi but as to the rest I believe that at 40+ all tankers should have approximately balanced defenses. My defenders might have similar holes against Psi but they do not suffer the same imbalance, why should my tank?
2) My defenses should be better on their own than that given me by a defender.
3) Toggle dropping.
4) Game play style. Recent changes have resulted in the fact that my Inv tank plays virtually identically to my Regen scrapper. Which is just madness! Turn on status protection, occasionally click dull pain and if things go pair shaped click IH Or Unstoppable. Not sure whether than is because Regen no longer regens or because Invuln no longer resists or both 
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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It certainly seems to be doesn't it. However I really don't know why?
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Single tool used. For whatever reason (limited imagination, or limited resources) ... at any rate, they are difficult to balance when the only tool utilized is the reduction of values stored in tables. If they were willing to actually come up with some new ideas now ... and write some new code ...
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Recent changes have resulted in the fact that my Inv tank plays virtually identically to my Regen scrapper. Which is just madness!
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See above. Where the only tool utilized is the reduction of values, balance and convergence are essentially the same thing. The more the sets are balanced, the more powers in each set effectively cease to exist. When the only powers that have an appreciable effect are dull pain and status protection from unyielding/integeration, invul and regen will be literally identical. It's not so far from there now.
Post ED makes things a bit tricky for Tankers. It lowered their defensive capabilites.
-Fire set. Well they got destroyed pre-ED with the destruction of Burn and since the beginning with Fiery Embrace/Rise of the Pheonix. ED was just like shooting to make sure they were dead.
- Every other set...will get back to them.
What ED affected the most was the secondary. Tankers complained about lack of damage. So what did they do? Force people to start slotting their offensive skills by limiting the usefulness of certain slots in their primary set. Ice/Granite/Invuln should see an offensive increase by maximizing the number of slots they can use in the secondary, while minimizing the number of slots needed in the primary.
Now...fire tankers. They really only had 5 useful skills. Fiery Aura, Fire Shield, Consume, Plasma Shield, Healing Flames. Everything else is situational at best. So, to begin with, Fire Tankers already had a surplus of slots for their secondary.
What did ED do?
Slot tertiary! Now you can have SUPER-FAST SUPERSPEED!
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Stone, as a primary, is tough to live with. I have taken EVERY available defense, only 2 attacks (3 slotted accuracy, and nothing else), and taunt. I finally picked up swift around 18. Level 19.8 now. Even with numerous slots devoted (with +2 lvl DOs, as I can) to defense, I still faceplant fairly regular.
I have no travel power. Primary, secondary, and fitness pool, for health.
The good news: If I fall the entire team goes green to red immediately. This shows that I was, indeed mitigating crazy damage. Invuln? Still standing when I fall.
I am useful, I am just finding my limits. We all should.
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This isn't a knock on you, but what you said really illustrates one of my points. You are generously slotting your primary and still face-planting regularly. Does it seem odd to you that, the AT that is supposed to be all about damage mitigation, goes down as much as anyone else? Isn't the trade off for lower damage supposed to be more survivability? Your problem is that in the early levels you are playing, you have to take care of your defenses before you can fill out your attacks. You'll finally start to see increased survivability when you get some more attacks and slot them up. And therein lies the rub: for a lot of tanks it boils down to killing them before they can kill you, which IMO doesn't really sound tankerish.
But have heart, at least you are leveling up a Stone tank. After you get Granite you will finally be a tank, although while using GA you will hit like a 10 year old girl. But I'm fine with that, it makes the power balanced and feeling like an impenetrable force is worth the loss of damage.
I couldn't help but notice your comment about limits at the end of your post. I think you missed the point of what I was saying. My issue is not with what a tanker can handle now, its how much better any other AT can handle the same situation. For example, I have an alt who is a level 15 Rad/Rad defender. With Radiation Infection and Enervating Field on, I can stand in the middle of 8-10 even con enemies and hardly take a scratch. I'll bet there have been times when your Stone tank couldn't do that (I faintly remember my times with my Stone tank in the Hollows, yum, dirt) Now, that isn't to say I think my defender is too powerful, I just think tankers whose primary is all about damage mitigation should get out what they put into it.
P.S. Were you running Mud Pots? The reason I ask is that at that level, Mud Pots will bleed you dry of endurance and attract more attention than your build can likely handle. Statesman himself said you can pull your weight by only tanking 1/3 of a spawn, so don't bite off too much and you will live longer. Let your team take a little bit of that aggro, they are heroes too after all.
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Statesman's post:
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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So let's break it down:
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
We manage aggro best? Our taunt of 5 villains is better than a controller's hold of 16? :hmm:
Take the brunt of the spawns? We'll come back to this.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
"Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible...". So apparently tanking is not for the unskilled player that just thinks it sounds like a cool AT.
And, I guess our job as a tank is to simply stand there and keep a few of the minions occupied while everyone else kills the rest, then have the rest of the team help us eliminate the ones we are keeping busy. In other words, we are not much more in his view than a mobile defense inspiration. Good to know he's got such a high view of us.
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
He would taunt the Strongman? That is the one in the group that is least likely to hurt him. He even says so. I don't consider my role as a tank to be attack the safest, but instead to be attack the opponent most likely to hurt the team. This generally means lts or bosses. Yes...even against Carnies.
"I'd usually catch some other minions and lts." - he sounds like this wasn't intentional...just a side effect of the taunt power.
1/3 of the spawn? Remember how I said we'd come back to his comment about taking "the brunt" of the attack? I consider 1/2 or better to be the brunt (ie: the bulk, the most, etc.). I don't think 1/3 is the brunt at all.
As far as the last line: That's mighty big of you Statesman. Hope you didn't tax your defenses too much helping out others like that. <_<
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong...is he blaming the rest of the team? "It's not my fault...they sucked!" Yeah...um...grow up. He's saying they are in their 30's and not familiar with their builds. Is he insinuating they were power leveled? :hmm:
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
Musta been those times he was so selflessly helping his teammates because they sucked so bad.
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Does this strike anyone else as thinking tanks are simply something to keep some mobs busy while the rest of the team "works"? I feel like he thinks that tanks are the equivalent of that guy in your office/class that gets the busy work because he isn't really able to handle the work the other people are doing.
If by some chance you happen to read this, Statesman, then know this:
As a tank, I didn't pick and choose my opponents leaving the hardest for the rest of the team to handle...I jumped in the middle of the spawn and took all the aggro I possibly could. Yeah...I died a fair amount doing this (even pre I5 and ED), but that was my role...to protect my team. I really did take the brunt of the spawn's attack...not just 1/3.
I did everything I could to prevent my teammates from going red in the first place, not simply waiting for them to and THEN taunting the villains.
If someone on my team died, I took it personally...I didn't blame them for not knowing how to play their characters.
So I guess you and I have a different idea of what tanks should be. I think the tank should be the tough hero that protects his team, and you think it should be mobile damage mitigation. Unfortunately for us, you are in control, so you win out. I'll be sure to let my future teams know that my job is to hold the aggro of only 5 guys while they take out the rest, and that I will expect them to help me when they are done. I'm sure that'll go over real well. Bet I'll be real popular.
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Wow. Had to take a moment reading all that. And Wow.
Does it strike you at all that States sounded like the one just figuring out his AT? I got the sense that he doesn't or maybe never really ever played a tanker.
I've been gone for a bit, since the Hamidon Enhancement fiasco, leaving on the note that if they messed with them, nothing was sacred... looks like I was right. And I came back before knowing... lol.
I was wondering where our special power tag or bar was, looks like they put in the Tanker's keister. I thought we were only hurt in PvP with the Toggle Dropping. I was about to ask what was ED, but did enough reading to realize what it stands for Entirely Dicked.
I don't understand the mentality here. You don't have to break an AT to make the others feel better about themselves. And no one should understand that better than the people behind the scenes.
The answer for making Tankers PvP ready was already in their hands: % Irresistable Damage. They already did that for the Blasters, right?
That's just a simple answer. Other ones exist that wouldn't require great leaps in imagination. Just probably a little expenditure of resources.
And unless there's a gambling or crack addiction in the works, there's no good excuse why they don't simply do some code writing here.
As for the role of the Tanker: Since I started this game in Headstart, I primarily played my Tanker daily until boredom forced a few alts. I know the role, how it's supposed to be filled, and remember that it was Statesman's posted definition of the Tanker's role that I followed to a tee.
Aggro Management, Team Protection, and Damage Assist was how it was to go. Seeing Statesman taunt the Strongman, my first thought was "Wrong". You taunt the guy that a Blaster would choose to Snipe: The guy likely to rush in and kill a squishie fast. Lieuts, Bosses, Elites, and even AVs.
Depending on the Damage Type of the mob, I could handle 75-100% of the mob fairly easily, relying on Dull Pain or a Defender to keep me in the green IF there were plenty of Lieuts, Bosses, or Damage Types that could hurt me.
1/3 of the brunt isn't the brunt. That's more Scrapper detail but they have the ability to actually mow down their crowd in short order.
In a team, I'd play meatshield and take down a few of the guys at the same time. I felt useful, even though it was easy to see that I was not a damage dealer in comparison to the others.
But I knew my role very well and fulfulled it. I almost never had a wipe out unless it was just simply unavoidable.
As for what Role now? I haven't taken my tanker out to play much except just a few trips to build Prestige, but untimately my role will be to play a figure head for my SG while I rebuild it. I won't team if I can't keep my team alive.
Such a shame, where's the pride I once saw in this game?
Yeah, makes you wonder if Statesman knows in the least of what he is talking about. He obviously doesn't know how to play a Tank, doesn't understand a Tank, and needs to open his eyes and look at what is going on. 1/3 of a spawn.... Max aggro cap, 17 enemies. 1/3 of that? 5.61(around) or 6 if rounded to the nearest whole number. Now that ain't much, now is it? Yeah, let me go rush at the weakest enemies and let my team get eaten by the illusionists. Team wipes, yeah, it ain't my fault, it is my teams fault... yeah... Well, we all know statesman don't know three ***** about Tanks. Well, I don't expect Statesman to ever understand Tanks, atleast when another free respec comes around I can respec since it is gonna overwrite my free respec anyways. My tank falls 7 times, gets up 8, Tanker pride for life!
I don't mean to be too harsh on anyone about it, but actually playing a tanker and still trying to play off that they didn't ruin the AT.
The only reason that the team started doing 'fine' after two wipes, States, is probably because they figured out just how much you weren't helping and stopped relying on you. They picked up your slack and carried your broken butt since they couldn't kick you.
The AT is broken and there's some of us just too smart to be lead to believe otherwise. Play a tanker for a week, not just a couple missions and see.
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1) The imbalance between damage types. I don't mind having negative protection from Psi but as to the rest I believe that at 40+ all tankers should have approximately balanced defenses. My defenders might have similar holes against Psi but they do not suffer the same imbalance, why should my tank?
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/Agree. I'm lvl 28 now and am beginning to experience how mobs are getting more nasty toward invul tankers (non-S/L dmg). A sobering experience.
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2) My defenses should be better on their own than that given me by a defender.
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There should be some room in our defenses to welcome buffs. But I duo with a D3 and there is a noticeable difference when Darkest Night (an acc debuff) is on or off. "Noticeable difference" means life or death in many cases when running Unyielding mish.
I like what they're going to do with Dull Pain. I could live with the fix to Invincibility since that was a bug anyway. I wish they would increase non-S/L RES to 50 - 60%.
Not sure how it will play out in the long run but I disagree with the fact that that Brutes can reach the 90% RES cap. The 90% cap should belong to Tankers only. That provides an incentive for tankers to team so they can reach the cap and other AT's to team with tanks so they can help him reach the cap. 82% sounds fair.
So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Please don't accuse Statesman of a blatant lie and ask him to throw you a bone in the same post.
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If the shoe fits
Lets face it the Devs were less than honest with us. But, life goes on.