HarleyRyder

We are obviously sitting on 2 different opinions. My idea of survivability is different from yours. CAN I run without Fighting and/or medicine. Sure. This gets into the "is stamina" needed conversation as well.

I'm looking at the numbers. I thinks its rediculous (or even extreme) that I have to take that many powers to reach those numbers. My issue isn't with the requirements. I was ready to do it. It's that now I have to squeeze taunt into an aggro magnet build.

Ice/SS with icicles and CE shouldn't need taunt EVER!!! some builds do need taunt in my opinion. Ice isn't one of them.

This bug is making where I have to give up haymaker, my second best ST attack for taunt.

My idea of survivability may seem extreme, but look at the numbers it actually represents.

38% (and that's 3 slotting combat jumping) defense to all but Psi and Toxic...not counting EA. so the only way to max out defense is with a GOOD application of EA.
39% resist versus Smash Lethal
Max resist to cold
15% resist to fire (this could be off, correct if wrong)
And Resist to toxic in hoarfrost.

That's my SUPER SURVIVABLE build.

So you may think I'm going to the EXTREME. But numerically, that's not that extreme. I4 invul was extreme.

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My issue here is power choices. I'm currently playing ( or was) an Ice/SS tank. Figuring CE/Icicles/Footstomp would give me more than enough aggro control (and for everything but AV's it has). I was trying to build the toughest Ice tank possible to handle AV's etc.

To attain the highest defense/most survivalbe build I planned
All 9 primary powers
Fighting for 3
fitness for 3
medicine for 2
leaping for 2
Rage, Jab, Haymaker, KO Blow and footstomp.

Thats all 24 powers. Because I feel I have to take medicine AND fighting to maximize my character. Now I have to drop the medicine pool in order to take taunt.

So basically if I want the most survivable tank, I can't have the best aggro control....but if I want the best aggroing tank, I can't be the most survivable.......

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If the goal is most survivable then why not drop an attack like Haymaker? If survivability is your primary goal then sacrifices need to be made. Personally I'd rather watch paint dry but I've seen people who like playing Emp defenders with just one attack - in the end it's your money so do what you want.

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Yup. Like now my warrior in WoW is level 13....That's where my money is going now.

Yes I agree with dropping an attack. I can run Icicles, Jab, Boxing, Foot Stomp and KO Blow. But why not make it where I don't feel like I'm loosing survivability if I didn't have aid self or fighting.

My issue here is power choices. I'm currently playing ( or was) an Ice/SS tank. Figuring CE/Icicles/Footstomp would give me more than enough aggro control (and for everything but AV's it has). I was trying to build the toughest Ice tank possible to handle AV's etc.

To attain the highest defense/most survivalbe build I planned
All 9 primary powers
Fighting for 3
fitness for 3
medicine for 2
leaping for 2
Rage, Jab, Haymaker, KO Blow and footstomp.

Thats all 24 powers. Because I feel I have to take medicine AND fighting to maximize my character. Now I have to drop the medicine pool in order to take taunt.

So basically if I want the most survivable tank, I can't have the best aggro control....but if I want the best aggroing tank, I can't be the most survivable.......

This really was the straw for me. I've been playin WoW for a couple weeks to see if I like it. CoH was always HANDS DOWN my favorite game. Not any longer.

I started playing this game back in teh summer of 04. I created my first tank in sept. 04 after trying blaster, then scrappers. I fell in love with my tank.

I've watched nerf after nerf after nerf. To the point where I can't find a tank fun anymore. I keep telling myself, adjust etc. But when you look at what you were to what you are...it gets frustrating.

I'm playing a WoW warrior now. He's not as strong at taking damage as a tank, but he is what he is. And I can learn and accept it. If WoW suddenly goes and changes him on me, I'll probably quit WoW. I've become complete disenchanted with CoX. I feel like a game I loved was taken from me FOR NO REASON!!!

So for all of you who knew me on Liberty as Harley Rider, Harley Ryder, Uber Nova, Buck N. Bronco, Daemon Strife or War Train. It was good playing with you. The community is what it's all about. I'm just tired of having my characters stripped of their powers and not play like they did for HUNDREDS of hours.

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Sigh...so controllers become 2nd rate defenders and get to be controlelrs for 1/3 of an AV fight.

Tanks simply need to use taunt/provoke - moves that are EASILY accesible to them - for them to do their job. Maybe because I'm an old schoo ltankl thats accustom to provoke > taunt, and eventually vice versa - to me having punchvoke was a + allowing me to do my job easier, but its not an end all to being a tank. Like I said if you want to take the aggro of an AV use taunt, you don't have to slot it, and if you doslot it you get even MORE time to attack still. Tanks are still herding huge amounts of minions and lts like nothing - so whats the problem? Its merely a balance thing, its become enritely TOO easy to beat Avs with a tank on the team who doens't even have taunt. Thin kof it in the classic comic book terms - Fantastic four - fighting a bunch of doom's henchmen - Thing will aggro them all and they will attack him - even though Johny Storm is doing the real dmg with his fireblast. They get to Dr. Doom - the 'AV' is he really going to focus on thing simply because thing hits him a couple times? Hardly - he 'knows' better.
- :blue:

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Actually to look at your comic book example. Yes he will completely focus on thing, because thing is sending him through walls, etc. Never does Thing say "Yo Doom, That a cod piece or you just happy to see me!?!?!" to get Dr. Doom off The Torch. The Thing walks up and knocks him down....oh wait AV's can't be knocked down or taunted with punches....Looks like it's back to the ole "insult yo mama!!" trick for tanks.

Stop and think about this.
Devs "We don't want tanks being taunt bots so we'll nerf taunt by implementing an aggro cap"
Devs "AV's are supposed to take a balanced team to take down"
Devs "We want you to be a taunt bot to beat an AV".....

Uhhhhh....hmmmmm.

do they come with an inherent fly, or do you have to take fly as a power. A superspeeder with wings just is kinda meh!!!

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Tanker damage going up? is it true? if so YAY!

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most likely not...this was from back in 2004 when our damage was indeed bad. It already got upped, I doubt they'll do it again.

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Yeah, this was I2 to I3 if I remember correctly (or I1 to I2)

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I know how you feel Val. The problem is, our vision of what a tanker should be does not mesh with PvP. For a tanker to be able to leap into a spawn for an 8 man team and have a better than average chance of survival, his damage mitigation would make him severely unbalanced in PvP. It's clear to me that the meatshield role has no place in the current scheme of things, as there are much more efficient ways to deal with PvE enemies. Heck, it's plain as day that , slot-for-slot, you are better off slotting your attacks than Invuln's passives.

But I digress, the goal was to point out what we felt was wrong with Statesman's post. For starters, the comment about a skilled tanker being able to corral all the mobs: I guess we better hope spawns contain 17 or fewer enemies, what with the hard cap on aggro and all. What's the point of a hard cap? AoE powers were already nerfed, thus removing the incentive to herd. So why implement a cap on aggro, the role that Statesman himself said we are supposed to shine at? This is the one nerf that really ticks me off beyond all others.

As for taking the brunt of the spawn, I'll just nod in agreement with what you said. I would hate to think all I brought to the table was the ability to occupy 1/3 of a group of enemies with a character whose primary function is supposed to be meatshied.

So to wrap it up, Dull pain was the saving grace of his Invuln tanking experience.....a heal. Kinda rubs against the whole "Invulnerability" concept eh? Oh that's right, it brings us back to the whole "can't be balanced in PvP" crux.

In closing, I can't help but go off on a rant regarding the role of tankers in this game. The following is only my opinion. Tankers in PvE are really nothing more than sheperds for the ignorant enemy AI. Their purpose is to occupy the mobs while the team pummels them with impunity. The whole purpose of tankers in the PvE game hinges on this game mechanic called "Aggro", which can just as easily and more effectively be dealt with through other means (i.e. debuffing, holding, out-right defeating with attacks)

In the PvP game, tankers have even LESS of a raison d'etre (pardon any misspelling there, my french is rusty ). When facing real people, "aggro" doesn't exist. Sure, you can fire off Taunt and lock an enemy onto you, but that's pretty much the extent of what a tanker does in PvP. Otherwise, the tanker just tries to beat the crap out of the enemy a la scrappers or brutes. And if that is your goal, you are far better off just rolling a scrapper or brute. In short, tankers are collateral damage from a lack of forethought on the devs part. They should just finish nerfing our defenses, give us a fury bar, and make the transformation complete.

Sorry for the rant, it's been a long day.

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No apologies needed. Many agree with you. I am one of those. My biggest complaint is being "FORCED" into this. No choice. All so they could put out another game "CoV" on the shelves. Okay "stand alone expansion". HAHAHAHA. Another game. It's all about the bucks.

Hey, maybe they'll do another Winter Lords thing so the new players can level their characters up. HAHAHA.