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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Statesman's post:
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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So let's break it down:
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
We manage aggro best? Our taunt of 5 villains is better than a controller's hold of 16? :hmm:
Take the brunt of the spawns? We'll come back to this.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
"Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With
a lot of skill, it
should be possible...". So apparently tanking is not for the unskilled player that just thinks it sounds like a cool AT.
And, I guess our job as a tank is to simply stand there and keep a few of the minions occupied while everyone else kills the rest, then have the rest of the team help us eliminate the ones we are keeping busy. In other words, we are not much more in his view than a mobile defense inspiration. Good to know he's got such a high view of us.
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
He would taunt the Strongman? That is the one in the group that is
least likely to hurt him. He even says so. I don't consider my role as a tank to be attack the safest, but instead to be attack the opponent most likely to hurt the team. This generally means lts or bosses. Yes...even against Carnies.
"I'd usually catch some other minions and lts." - he sounds like this wasn't intentional...just a side effect of the taunt power.
1/3 of the spawn? Remember how I said we'd come back to his comment about taking "the brunt" of the attack? I consider 1/2 or better to be the brunt (ie: the bulk, the most, etc.). I don't think 1/3 is the brunt at all.
As far as the last line: That's mighty big of you Statesman. Hope you didn't tax your defenses too much helping out others like that. <_<
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Please tell me I'm reading this wrong...is he blaming the rest of the team? "It's not my fault...they sucked!" Yeah...um...grow up. He's saying they are in their 30's and not familiar with their builds. Is he insinuating they were power leveled? :hmm:
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
Musta been those times he was so selflessly helping his teammates because they sucked so bad.
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Does this strike anyone else as thinking tanks are simply something to keep some mobs busy while the rest of the team "works"? I feel like he thinks that tanks are the equivalent of that guy in your office/class that gets the busy work because he isn't really able to handle the work the other people are doing.
If by some chance you happen to read this, Statesman, then know this:
As a tank, I didn't pick and choose my opponents leaving the hardest for the rest of the team to handle...I jumped in the middle of the spawn and took all the aggro I possibly could. Yeah...I died a fair amount doing this (even pre I5 and ED), but that was my role...to protect my team. I really did take the brunt of the spawn's attack...not just 1/3.
I did everything I could to prevent my teammates from going red in the first place, not simply waiting for them to and THEN taunting the villains.
If someone on my team died, I took it personally...I didn't blame them for not knowing how to play their characters.
So I guess you and I have a different idea of what tanks should be. I think the tank should be the tough hero that protects his team, and you think it should be mobile damage mitigation. Unfortunately for us, you are in control, so you win out. I'll be sure to let my future teams know that my job is to hold the aggro of only 5 guys while they take out the rest, and that I will expect them to help me when they are done. I'm sure that'll go over real well. Bet I'll be real popular.
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Wow. Had to take a moment reading all that. And Wow.
Does it strike you at all that States sounded like the one just figuring out his AT? I got the sense that he doesn't or maybe never really ever played a tanker.
I've been gone for a bit, since the Hamidon Enhancement fiasco, leaving on the note that if they messed with them, nothing was sacred... looks like I was right. And I came back before knowing... lol.
I was wondering where our special power tag or bar was, looks like they put in the Tanker's keister. I thought we were only hurt in PvP with the Toggle Dropping. I was about to ask what was ED, but did enough reading to realize what it stands for Entirely Dicked.
I don't understand the mentality here. You don't have to break an AT to make the others feel better about themselves. And no one should understand that better than the people behind the scenes.
The answer for making Tankers PvP ready was already in their hands: % Irresistable Damage. They already did that for the Blasters, right?
That's just a simple answer. Other ones exist that wouldn't require great leaps in imagination. Just probably a little expenditure of resources.
And unless there's a gambling or crack addiction in the works, there's no good excuse why they don't simply do some code writing here.
As for the role of the Tanker: Since I started this game in Headstart, I primarily played my Tanker daily until boredom forced a few alts. I know the role, how it's supposed to be filled, and remember that it was Statesman's posted definition of the Tanker's role that I followed to a tee.
Aggro Management, Team Protection, and Damage Assist was how it was to go. Seeing Statesman taunt the Strongman, my first thought was "Wrong". You taunt the guy that a Blaster would choose to Snipe: The guy likely to rush in and kill a squishie fast. Lieuts, Bosses, Elites, and even AVs.
Depending on the Damage Type of the mob, I could handle 75-100% of the mob fairly easily, relying on Dull Pain or a Defender to keep me in the green IF there were plenty of Lieuts, Bosses, or Damage Types that could hurt me.
1/3 of the brunt isn't the brunt. That's more Scrapper detail but
they have the ability to actually mow down their crowd in short order.
In a team, I'd play meatshield and take down a few of the guys at the same time. I felt useful, even though it was easy to see that I was not a damage dealer in comparison to the others.
But I knew my role very well and fulfulled it. I almost never had a wipe out unless it was just simply unavoidable.
As for what Role now? I haven't taken my tanker out to play much except just a few trips to build Prestige, but untimately my role will be to play a figure head for my SG while I rebuild it. I won't team if I can't keep my team alive.
Such a shame, where's the pride I once saw in this game?
