Nozybidaj

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It's been a while since I4 and that huge thread back then but I really feel truthfully that was the point were Regen became the enemy of Jack and the Devs.

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I think that is when it really became a personal thing for them, yeah. We caught them with their pants down, and they realized they really didn't know how their own game worked. Regen just happened to be the ones to prove that to 'em.

I would venture that because of that, Regen will never be returned to one of the top tier sets. No matter what happens in the future Regen will be looked at by Jack, Geko, et al., as the "power gamer" set, and allowed to wallow in mediocrity till they shut the servers down.

Personally I think it should be stickied in the Dev Digest, but whatever floats your boat.

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'balanced' and bored

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Pretty much how I feel. CoV was a nice distraction from all the "growing pains" of CoH because it was all shiny and new. Now? Like you said, every bit as repetitive as CoH. Just about to hit 32 with my SS/EA Brute and I don't really feel like I'm growing into a Super Villain at all.

I spend most of my time running errands for people I don't know anything about. When I do get to face a "Hero" I usually end up on the ground in about 10 seconds. Not really feeling super or feeling evil.

In CoH the super feeling isn't really there either but I usually did at least feel like I was playing a hero.

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The Entire Thread

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I guess some people enjoyed Easy Mode(TM). Personally, I did not.

My MA/Regen Scrapper got boring as hell around level 37, when I had all his defenses and attacks pretty much maxed out. I stopped playing /Regen and made some alts. And while the low levels were full of a lot more newbies, they were also a lot more intense.

Obviously, some people don't like "intense". Some people like to turn on a few powers and strut through a mission with +4 mobs without ever dropping below 80% HP. That just wasn't for me. I like to live on the edge. That used to be what Scrapping was all about...

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i guess some people enjoy acting superior and being a Mr. smarmypants. Personally, I do not. ok, well kinda.

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I dunno, his post didn't make a lot of sense. First he says "My MA/Regen Scrapper got boring as hell" then goes on to say "I like to live on the edge. That used to be what Scrapping was all about..." *shrug*

I know Regen was dang powerful but it didn't take much of a co-ordinated effort to drop a regen scrapper. A couple of quick blows from a boss, an unlucky alpha strike from a group of minions, getting into melee range with an AV. All of these could spell death for a regen scrapper in seconds, at anytime. That seems pretty close to the edge to me, and you didn't need +4's to do it.

Sure we all saw videos of a regen scrapper herding an entire wolf map (with excessive use of inspirations, exploiting the pathing AI, and having a complimentary Primary for the task), but it doesn't matter that any powerset in the game could do that given the fine print. Regen is the devil after all.

People like to look back and point out all the great things Regen could do while conveniently forgetting all the weaknesses and downsides to the set as well. Revisionist history for the win I guess. Seems to be par for the course around here.

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I don't know who to feel more sorry for: the people who never played an old Regen or the people who did.

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Oh definitely the people who never did! A regen scrapper was so much fun to play 1-50! Sure the early levels were rough, but man it was fun. Haven't enjoyed the game that much before or since.

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It does make you wonder what the heck were the devs thinking?

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That they were trying to make a superhero, not the jacked up fitness pool secondary we got now.

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So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker.

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Sure a tanker is better at tanking than anyone else. On the tanking scale of 1-100 a tanker is 100. A scrapper probably comes in at around 70. The problem, Statesman, is that for 90% of the game you only need someone that can tank at 65.

Outside of a handful of situations the tankers ability to hold aggro is not a large enough benefit to outweigh the fact that another AT receiving the same support the tanker would need will bring more to the team.

Now if the two points you brought up, higher base numbers (which is laughable by the way) and better aggro control were more in demand you might have something worthwhile there.

Oh well, you've always missed the forest for trees when it came to tankers. I guess we'll have to wait a month or two for datamining to once again point out what we are telling you now.

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Over the 4 day weekend, I left my computer running with Eviscerate on Autoattack. (Both my target and my character were set to not take damage so there was no worry about killing each other.)

I attacked a total of 38917 times.
I hit 29275 times.
I missed 9642 times.

That is a 75.22% overall to hit chance against an even level critter with no defense powers.

There is no "Accuracy Wrap Around" -- otherwise Blasters with Targetting Drone + Aim + Build Up would never, ever hit, which is not the case.

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Internal servers or live?

I only ask because I have watched a scrapper 3 shot a +8 boss on your internal servers, so what happens there and what happens live can be a far, far ways apart.

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Also, did you record anything other than total hits and misses? What was your longest hit streak? What was the longest miss streak?

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This morning, I had PMs in my box saying the Accuracy of Dark Melee, Energy Melee and Claws seem to be wrong. I've gotten similar PMs about Ninja Blade as well.

We've tons of data here which all support that accuracy is working as intended and players still have a base 75% to hit even level critters.

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Castle, has the to-hit chance vs. yellow and higher-con minions changed?

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That is another good question. They very well may have tightened up the Purple Patch.

How about the streak breaker? While base accuracy may still be 75% I get much longer streaks of both hits and misses than I used to, say 6-10 months ago. It is quite noticeable and may be leading to a lot of the accuracy complaints. It really became evident post I4.

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Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.

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Well, seeing that Invinc has been "fixed" how do you think you would perform now?

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Bug… In an upcoming patch, flying entities that are disorient will no longer behave oddly.

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Any hope for a fix of non-flying entities that are behaving oddly?

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I really like Foo's AV concept.

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I got the entire Praetorian arc to do with my tanker yet. If you want we can line 'em up one right after the other.

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Do add me to the list of helpers,

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Not sure if I have any that could lend a hand here or not. My 50 DM/Regen scrapper is doing requests currently, as is my 47 Invuln/EM tank. Aside from that I have a mid 30's Fire/Rad 'troller that I haven't played since before the changes to controller holds. A ~27 Dark/Dark Defender. Nothing else of a level that would be a big help.

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Now change your tank for an equal level Brute and run the same missions and then answer this simple question honestly - what was more fun?


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Hey BL, haven't seen ya in a while. At this point, I honestly think a Brute is the best way to go. If you picked up CoV go get your SMASH!! on.

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It becomes a philosophical argument, rather than a numerical one.

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It certainly will come down to a philosophical argument. Statesman can make the numbers line up however he wants, and is working with numbers we don't even know about yet. There is no testing we can do now on Live or Test that can replicate whatever changes the devs have in store for us in I7, I8, etc.

Therefore the devs if they feel so inclined can simply throw out any data we provide as being inaccurate (they won't tell us that but that is what they will and have been doing).

Just like Bridger's post long ago on the Euro forums about Havok's spreadsheets. He said that while players can perform detailed anaylsis they can never replicate dev testing because we are only dealing with half the information.

Unless Statesman was kind enough to come here and provide us with some background data on upcoming changes so we can try and replicate that on the test server, whatever data we do collect can be simply thrown away as not being pertinent if it doesn't match up with what the devs want to see.

That is why you have to try and make it a philosophical argument. You have to set up expectations that the tanker AT should aspire to and how they should relate to their comic book counterparts.

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I guess I don't understand how testing anything other than the meatshield role will be useful.


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I appreciate what you guys are trying to set up here really I do. Even testing the meatshield role is a moot point though I think. If Statesman's example is to be considered the new role of the tanker, we already know it is inadequate and bugged. He does too. It makes me wonder what else they have in store for us we don't know about yet that will make his example meaningful.

Lets look at what has happend the last couple of Issues. Many of us knew that if they nerfed tanker defenses it would lead to a domino effect of nerfing for the rest of the game. For instance say this post:

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from Nozybida 06/02/2005 Issue 6 - Today:
Yep, spot on. I laid it out on a thread on the tanker forum, but I'll say it here too.
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If you lower Tanker and Scrapper defenses all of the sudden it is going to be far preferable to have defenders and Controllers do the job. That'll lead to further nerfing of Defender Primaris and Controller Secondaries. Then of course Controller Primaries are seriously over the top for anything the team can reasonably fight, and as noted by Statesman fighting statues isn't fun. So we'll see controller Primary nerfs too. Of course Blaster, Scrapper, and pet Controller's offenses can turn mobs at the new fighting range into dust in seconds and again make Tankers and Defenders not very useful, so all of those will get nerfed to make the game "fun" again. Of course that would only serve to make Defender and Tanker offenses seem overpowered by comparison, so more nerfs there.
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Now of course no one can even begin to think of taking on a full size group mission or dare to enter a TF so all the mobs will need to be adjusted or the spawn tables reworked.
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Also, the leveling grind is going to seriously draw out since we can no longer fight mobs where the XP and rewards are actually worthwhile, so either the devs would need to rebalance the rewards to the new fighting level or I guess they could simply let us wallow in the drudgingly long grind.
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And as should be expected all of this tuning will only cause new imbalances and require more "fun" tweaking. In the end at best, the entire super feeling of CoH will be lost. At worst they'll wreck the game.

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Look familiar? Looks like the results of I5 and ED to me. About the only thing I didn't get right there was them rebalancing the mobs to compensate.

Now, I think we are still in store for some major changes, changes that I think will revolve around offense. Even with ED in effect most of the AT's are simply able to defeat mobs too quickly for defenses to matter much except in extreme situations. I would predict many changes for offensively focused characters in the next Issue or two. If you make it take twice as long to kill things all of the sudden defensive potential and aggro control become pretty important.

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So I mostly find the example demeaning for the Tanker AT as a whole.


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Par for the course then.

2 Defenders is considered Extreme Support? I'd call it par for the course. I think his point, which you missed is if those two defenders can make the entire team into psuedo tanks what would you need a tanker for? What does a tanker bring to a group that a group would desire?

According to Statesman himself the answer is Hitpoints. There are few occasions where those extra HP are going to be such an advantage as to warrant having a tanker on the team. Situations such as AV fights to absorb the alpha and hard hits. After that the team could do just as well with the tanker face down in the dirt the rest of the fight.

Did the devs make a mistake be having an AT in the game with a Defensive Primary? I think the evidence certainly weighs on the side of yes as far as the devs are concerned. So instead of just putting tanks out to pasture so to speak I'd rather they just retrofitted tankers with more Brute like qualities.

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so our role by your own experience is to take the initial aggro, to tank 1/3 of the group eventough by your own admission you went to 1/3 in the red even with an emp and a kin on team long enough for the rest of the team to do it's job. So what is it you were doing that a buffed scrapper and he would be buffed with a kin controller with pets and emp on team would not be able to do plus he would be adding damage to the team which you were not. Is this really your impression of tanking is? that someone even as knowledgable and skilled as you could only contribute handling 1/3 of the spawns? what if you were EM,SS with only one AOE unlike fire is 1/3 too high of a standard then?

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Nicely put. Basically what Jack's example comes down to is this. "A tanker is a bag of hitpoints to absorb the initial alpha from the mob. After that the team goes on as normal."

Quite a job description for an entire AT huh? I was kinda wondering how he handled the Carnie bosses that should have been spawning, didn't see him mention them. Would also be interesting to see how he does against AV's like Anti-Matter or any other non Smash/Lethal exclusive AV.

I like that Jack came here to tell us how he see's the AT and how they should perform. A description with a bit more scope would be nice though. Want to make sure I'm having fun the right way at all times for now on.

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Yah the day I see superheroes farming instances for uber gear is the day I join the Scrabble Tournament Championship

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Maybe not for "uber gear" but super heroes have been farming instances (Hammidon) in this game since release, and you better believe SG's will be farming instances for Prestige and Salvage to get the CoH equivalent to "gear" in their bases.

And just wait till these mysterious new enhancements Statesman spoke about come out. Better believe people will be farming for them too.

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If I may, what is your presumably "higher standard" in gameplay changes and balance decisions? I'm interested to know...

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The move provided by all of these "balance changes" has had one prevailing effect. To remove consequences from the choices players make. To make the difference between what one player slots and another slots ineffectual. To make the choice of chosing one power over another irrelevant.

Balance is one thing, but trying to ensure the Harry the Chimp over there who picks powers and enhancements at random is just as effective as EvilGeko who takes the time and effort to think about and plan his build is not only irrational but idiotic.

Did the top end of builds need to be tuned down? Sure did, there was (and still are) some things capable in this game that are so far over the top as to be ridiculous. But hammering everyone down to the point that my choices as a player have such an insignificant effect as to be pointless makes for an even more boring game.

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I would so hate to see Statesman and the other developers so wearied by what happens here that they lose their creativity and start worrying about catering to the lowest common denominator and thinking in terms of PR and press release mentality.


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So it's not okay to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to PR but it is okay to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to gameplay changes and balance decisions? Seems a bit backwards to me, but hey whatever floats your boat.

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And no, I DON'T hope I7 is "huge." 1.6 gigs is MORE than enough for my bandwidth to choke on, thank you very much.

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LOL I didn't mean big as in size, I meant big as in Blockbuster, as in spectacular. Something that will get the playerbase excited about an issue instead of fearing it and crying about nerfs, something that is rare around here since I3.

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If DOOM means never hitting 3 millions subs, then you win. Doom, it is.


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You all are so eager to jump to States' defense you completely miss the point of just about everything don't you?

Alright, one last try here. I could really care less if CoH has the same number of subscribers as WoW. What I do care about is the fact the devs seem so focused on a very narrow view of the game and their own interpretation of fun that it is driving many people from the game. What I do care about is the fact that the focus of the dev team is centered around making sure every number in their spreadsheets line up instead of keeping the game in line with the genre itself. What I do care about is the fact that every issue for the last year has been centered around reigning in playstyles that Jack doesn't think are fun instead of giving us more options in what style of play we want. I could go on and on, but about the only person still bothering with this thread that might be able to grasp that is Clint here.