[ QUOTE ]
Well, all I can say is that I have not noticed a substantial change in the operation of my tanks since the launch of the game with the exception of Gauntlet getting in and Taunt becoming auto-hit AoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
The first question has to be what type of tanks were you playing then that you are still playing now?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the one you should be comparing is:
Tank + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
vs
Defender + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
[/ QUOTE ]
Any team of good players that know each other well should work. Regardless of AT complement. The playstyle involved, however, will be different.
By substituting a Defender for a Tanker, you immediately cause the aggro to be shared a lot more. Your battle will have to be more mobile and, likely, more swift. The team would need to avoid presenting a solid target and also avoid aggroing extra opponents. The blasters will be less able to concentrate on specific targets as they will have to watch their own life more often. The defender will be busier healing, assuming you have a healing defender.
A controller would be a more equivalent trade for a tank. Tanks and controllers do the same basic job=keep the enemies from attacking the vulnerable party members. In a team with a tank, the controller's job is to handle flankers and specific threats while the tanker holds the front. In a team without a tanker, the controller takes responsibility for holding the main enemy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Irrelevant. Defenders and Controllers and Tanks are all Support ATs. The point of the test is to see how one support AT plus some Damager dealers does against another support AT with the same damage dealers. The performance SHOULD be just as effective all things being equal.
Feel free to add Controller + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
PS: I tend to focus on Defenders because since I stopped playing my Tank my Defender has become my Main and he out performs by Tank by a significant margin IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, and when I read: Tanker = Frontline Fighter in the manual, I don't think of them as "support ATs." But then again, my only other MMO experiance was about 9 months of SWG, so I don't have Tank=Meatshield ingrained into my brain.
Help make America #1 in Broadband: www.broadband.gov
Take the survey/test (like a Census for Broadband): http://broadband.gov/qualitytest/about/
[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to add Controller + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster
PS: I tend to focus on Defenders because since I stopped playing my Tank my Defender has become my Main and he out performs by Tank by a significant margin IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is depressing.
Just do the all defender team and see the power.
I'm about ready to give up on all of my tankers. As a casual player I have none that are 50 yet and will never get there it seems. I agree with Jagged in that my Defender is my best option and most fun to play. Tankers are all forced into the scranker roll with out the tools to do the job.
Once the devs are done castrating the AT perhaps thay can review the "fun factor" again.
[ QUOTE ]
See, and when I read: Tanker = Frontline Fighter in the manual, I don't think of them as "support ATs." But then again, my only other MMO experiance was about 9 months of SWG, so I don't have Tank=Meatshield ingrained into my brain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah! See a lot of us thought we were front line troops as well, but Statesman came along and put us right on that one. We are a Support AT (apparently)
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See, and when I read: Tanker = Frontline Fighter in the manual, I don't think of them as "support ATs." But then again, my only other MMO experiance was about 9 months of SWG, so I don't have Tank=Meatshield ingrained into my brain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah! See a lot of us thought we were front line troops as well, but Statesman came along and put us right on that one. We are a Support AT (apparently)
[/ QUOTE ]
And then he woke up the next day and had another vision that we should be mediocre damage dealers with big HP, "the vision" is subject to change so the vision for monday is not the same for tuesday 
[ QUOTE ]
One of the problems with making first a Defensive tanker and then an Offensive one is that puts them right back in the roles that they were in prior to I5--meatshield and skranker. I think we decided to move past that a couple pages ago.
[/ QUOTE ]
As for roles...
My experience with Mr. Latvia, my Invul/Axe, makes me wonder what makes a "scranker", given his damage output is mediocre despite having taken Hasten, all his Secondary powers (except I'm thinking of ditching Pendulum because of the knockback), and about half his Primaries (TI, DP, Unyielding, Invinc, Unstop). He hasn't taken any attacks from the pool sets, but if he's taken his whole Secondary and pool attacks still make him better, something's out of wack.
One thing I'm considering is that the Tanker is more of an "aggro manager" than a controller or a "meat shield": because he can taunt bosses with one hit whereas they tend to require 2 holds, and because he has mez resistance, he should focus on mezzers and high-damage bosses. Statesman says he wants us to have to think more...unfortunately, we don't have a fast-firing one-target taunt and would hate to lose Taunt for it.
(If the folks dealing non-S/L damage aren't mezzers, grabbing S/L aggro first makes sense because he can handle more S/L attackers and the non-S/L hits the squishies just as hard...unfortunately, mobs rarely break down like that. Those that have consistently non S/L damage tend to also be the ones with mezzes, esp. psi.)
Another possible Tanker role is "pocket controller", where the he uses Ice, knockdown (maybe disorient? but it doesn't happen as much), etc. to not just keep aggro but keep mobs from attacking. Invul and Fire aren't any help at that, though Ice is good and Stone at least has mud pots. Axe is good for fairly reliable knockdown; Mace seems to have a poor enough chance of disorient at low levels, and short enough of a duration, that it doesn't seem worth it; many other secondaries have knockdown and/or disorient, usually both. And of course add the Presence pool, and Ice Mastery for the Epic. If you don't need Acrobatics, either use the Teleport pool for TP Foe, or use the Fly pool for Air Superiority and maybe whirlwind.
I may respec Mr. Latvia in this direction, if only because I don't think I can solo sappers without some form of hold/fear power. But I don't like giving up Hasten and I don't know that I want to give up too many attacks either (except Pendulum)... If we were on a team that had the discipline to use a sleep, earth mastery could replace Ice Mastery and you could get Salt Crystals...but such a team is rare.
So anyway, Tom, there's a slightly refined role and a somewhat different role (that, admittedly, not all tankers can even effectively respec to) that may or may not make Tankers more wanted in a team. Personally, I think the first is probably just the smartest a meat shield can play and the second isn't something a Tanker can really do all that well anyway, not as well as an Ice blaster anyway...
Lots of volunteers, lots of input. Very, very cool.
From what Circeus was saying, it looks like the Pentad is about the best bet, since it has a higher chance of being taken seriously.
Some practical considerations here. We're going to need someone who is running herostats on the "core team" (the four characters that do not switch out.) We'll also need someone who is decent with the /demorecord function. In addition, I would like to be one of the people in the core team so that I can observe and organize.
I've got two characters in the 30s, a level 37 Triform Scrapping PB and a level 32 Claws/SR scrapper.
This would mean that we've got one potential core team with levels 36-38 and an alternate one with levels 32-34. In either case, the Tanks and the rotating ATs would have to be at the same level, preferably in the center of the range.
Questions:
What should be the composition of the "core team"? Should there be any limitation of their powersets to get better data about team dynamics?
For tanks, we'll be using Fire, Ice and Stone. What secondaries would provide the most accurate assessment of their "typical" abilities?
What should be the ATs and Powersets used in the "fifth wheel" slot to substitute for the tank? While I think it is a very good idea to see other support ATs placed in this slot, the role of damage-dealing should not be neglected.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
Well Foo has a 31 Ill/Kin Controller that he says can get to 32 soon. You have a 32 scrapper. I have a 32 defender and 32 fire tank. Certainly not claiming anything here but I could certainly run the fire tank then my defender to see if we have a change. We need a blaster for certain at this point and while I have a defender that I would happily use as the team's standard defender we then need 3 tanks all 32, keeping the levels the same seems a really good idea to me.
So lets post what we need and see who can help.
Fire tank (I really think secondary should be the same for all tank if at all possible) (I have Fire/Fire)
Stone tank
Ice Tank.
Then we need
Defender to replace tank
Controller to replace tank
Scrapper to replace tank
Blaster to replace tank
All 32 if possible but I think the power sets of the non-tanks shouldn't matter other then no /Inv scrappers.
As for the tank secondary if we could simply roll level 32 tanks I would say take /Axe as its a pretty solid and yet well rounded set. I would avoid /SS because of Rage and Fire because its so heavily based on AoE. That said we can't so I suggest we take the one we can fill the three slots with.
actually Scrappers are a GREAT replacement for Tanks
If you have a Defender/Controller to back them up
My Dark Defender can sit behind a scrapper and fear and debuff and KILL, and no alpha strke will kill him (within reason)--any type of Scrapper!
My Rad can to the same, and my Kinetics.... scrappers love kinetics!
Tankers do the same, but with less damage!
and who doesn't like less damage
HUYA
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
My Fire Tank was a soloist and a damage dealer in I3-I4
I5 stopped that hard
I6 I tested ED slotting and was face-planting VERSUS FUGGIN COT (oooohhhh +1s lets Pull!)
Having a tanker was supposed to mean you had to do less pulling, IMHO
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
Oh, one thing I forgot to include. If we're going to do this in the 32-34 range, we need to decide on an enemy for the test, so that I can try to get a mission to run. Blinky missions would be best, probably. I would absolutely hate to have to copy my character over again just to get a mission that someone blew by killing off the last mob in a fit of enthusiasm.
Choices are:
Council, CoT, DE, Rikti, Crey, Nemesis and Freakshow.
I sort of lean towards Crey because of the different damage types, although if we could avoid Orenbega missions, CoT might be good, too.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
Tonight if possible I will let you know what missions my boys have.
[ QUOTE ]
Well Foo has a 31 Ill/Kin Controller that he says can get to 32 soon. You have a 32 scrapper. I have a 32 defender and 32 fire tank. Certainly not claiming anything here but I could certainly run the fire tank then my defender to see if we have a change. We need a blaster for certain at this point and while I have a defender that I would happily use as the team's standard defender we then need 3 tanks all 32, keeping the levels the same seems a really good idea to me.
So lets post what we need and see who can help.
Fire tank (I really think secondary should be the same for all tank if at all possible) (I have Fire/Fire)
Stone tank
Ice Tank.
Then we need
Defender to replace tank
Controller to replace tank
Scrapper to replace tank
Blaster to replace tank
All 32 if possible but I think the power sets of the non-tanks shouldn't matter other then no /Inv scrappers.
As for the tank secondary if we could simply roll level 32 tanks I would say take /Axe as its a pretty solid and yet well rounded set. I would avoid /SS because of Rage and Fire because its so heavily based on AoE. That said we can't so I suggest we take the one we can fill the three slots with.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'm very curious as to how well Sonic Defenders in the test. Does anybody have a high enough level sonic? Mine is only 18.
No sonic here. Specifically using a sonic though could seem like we're weighting the test to prove our point. We might want to take what comes. Its more random and less looking let we're out to skew the results. If a sonic comes great, if not if our point is to be made and valid it shouldn't matter what defender. Unless we're saying that sonic defenders have taken the special place tanks used to have on a team.
[ QUOTE ]
No sonic here. Specifically using a sonic though could seem like we're weighting the test to prove our point. We might want to take what comes. Its more random and less looking let we're out to skew the results. If a sonic comes great, if not if our point is to be made and valid it shouldn't matter what defender. Unless we're saying that sonic defenders have taken the special place tanks used to have on a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that a Sonic or FF Defender should definitely be one of the Powersets in the group that rotates in to substitute for the tank. One of the big contentions is that such a Defender makes everyone a tank.
This would seem to indicate that the Defender that is on the "core team" should be of a different type. It might save us some time to have a kinetic, but the shorter the mission, the less likely the spread of xp/min differences between the different runs, even if there are real problems.
(In other words, a 10% difference in xp/min speed is a lot harder to see if a mission lasts 10 minutes than if it lasts 25--you run into problems of noise.)
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
[ QUOTE ]
No sonic here. Specifically using a sonic though could seem like we're weighting the test to prove our point. We might want to take what comes. Its more random and less looking let we're out to skew the results. If a sonic comes great, if not if our point is to be made and valid it shouldn't matter what defender. Unless we're saying that sonic defenders have taken the special place tanks used to have on a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
No I'm just particularly curious about them is all.
I was actually hoping to be able to get one of each type of defender primary. Barring that because of logistics, it would certainly be nice to have a few defenders representing a broader range of abilities ie a healer, a buffer/bubbler, and a debuffer. (and the same goes for every other class)
It's not so much as important to get every KIND of character in particular as it is to try to represent each of the gross styles. Of course how far you want to go along this line is limited by how long we want to test, and how many people we can get involved.
Before the event, Tom should probably draw up a list of team combinations/scenarios so we can quickly run through each of the tests. Otherwise it will easily take more than a single weekend.
Don't forget that you can still have a 6-man mission with a pentad team ... just have one member drop out in the mission and that can be the "impartial observer" ^_^
Not to rehash, but what is the list of definites on the "replace tank with" list, and should one of them be an Illusion Controller, since they have unkillable tanking pets?
[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget that you can still have a 6-man mission with a pentad team ... just have one member drop out in the mission and that can be the "impartial observer" ^_^
Not to rehash, but what is the list of definites on the "replace tank with" list, and should one of them be an Illusion Controller, since they have unkillable tanking pets?
[/ QUOTE ]
Any controller post 32 is going to have some interesting pets.
One of the things we're going over now is trying to determine what the substitution list should look like.
Tenative Substitution List:
Empath Defender
Shield Defender--Sonic or FF
Controllers:
Illusion Controller--Multi pets with unkillable ones
Blasters:
Open to discussion
Scrappers:
Open to discussion
Kheldians with Dwarf form
Kheldians without Dwarf form.
Core team: All between levels 32 and 34. Mission will be set to match the highest level in the core team.
Claws/SR scrapper, level 32
Fire/Eng Blaster
Grav/Rad Controller
Kinetics/Archery Defender
This is a start, I can quote and expand on this in later days.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
[ QUOTE ]
Council, CoT, DE, Rikti, Crey, Nemesis and Freakshow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Two of my favorite mobs to test against are Nemesis and Rikti.
CoT and DE would be good because there's a lot of oddness incurred from all the buffs and debuffs and mezzes flying about.
Freakshow you can skip, they're covered by the others really attackwise.
Council, other than the one cold attack that some have, and the potential for negative damage output (Galaxy and Vamps) you can probably skip. Negative will be covered by Energy from Rikti.
On top of my 2 50 Tankers, I also have a 34 AR/Dev Blaster, a 22 Emp/Dark Defender, a 24 BS/Regen Scrapper, and a 24 Spines/Regen Scrapper. All are respecced for I6, although some need to buy enhancements yet. Every other heroine I have is 16 or lower.
May I suggest
Fire / Nrg for Blaster (lots of AoE / Damage at all ranges)
Grav / Rad for Controller (avg. Smash/Lethal damage primary, secondary heals / debuffs)
Kin / Arch for Def (Good mix in primary, secondary will be smash/lethal and some fire)
Of course, provided these can be found/made in time. The preponderance of S/L damage in the Controller and Defender ought to help not skew the test by adding exotic damage types, right?
[ QUOTE ]
May I suggest
Fire / Nrg for Blaster (lots of AoE / Damage at all ranges)
Grav / Rad for Controller (avg. Smash/Lethal damage primary, secondary heals / debuffs)
Kin / Arch for Def (Good mix in primary, secondary will be smash/lethal and some fire)
Of course, provided these can be found/made in time. The preponderance of S/L damage in the Controller and Defender ought to help not skew the test by adding exotic damage types, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a lot of alts out there, Cass. The last one might be a bit harder to find since we've only had Archery for two months. However, I don't think it's all that important, since I don't think the Defender secondary is really going to change things that much.
I am assuming you are suggesting them for the core team.
I'll pencil these in unless someone objects.
Now, we've got a choice of enemies:
Nemesis, DE, CoT and Rikti. Which should we go for?
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
Because I love my tanks, I have:
50 Emp/Rad
35 Stone/Fire
26 Warshade
That's everyone over 10 that I have left I think. If I can help out with the test(s) feel free to /tell me and I'll go where needed (Test I presume).
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
Add in all of the non-Invuls in my signature as well. Although, if they never change Invul, we will need to test with it as well, maybe later.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
Well, all I can say is that I have not noticed a substantial change in the operation of my tanks since the launch of the game with the exception of Gauntlet getting in and Taunt becoming auto-hit AoE.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math