Monolith

That is a trollie thing to say Starman because you have been around long enought to know Foo's argument on this.

*puts on his 1st 200 badge*

- Remembers Mad Axer one shotting Totems.
- Remembers when Prisoners had a bug that gave hugh experience and trying to prove it to the devs.
- Remembers the orginal taunt / no taunt debates.
- Also remembers the Mad Cows.
- Remembers gathering for pictures by the big coin before the next wave of beta invites when out.
- Remembers Afro-American as the only Ice/* tanker.
- Remembers the joy of Super Leap in Steel Canyon for the first time.
- Remembers SaberTooth's Dev Response thread.
- Remembers leaving the costume maker on after the beta time so I could play around.
- Remembers Havok and MacAllen and other good friends.

I think the defender inherit is just fine. On a team I never have to worry about my endurance. I can spam my powers all day. It is only useful in a team setting ( unlike scrapper, blaster and Controllers).

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Taunt or provoke can, even slowly, get all the argo you can handle. Four taunts, at different groups, will put me over the limit. I can use the aura power of my primary to keep them there. Gaunlet helps will all but Invul in that case.


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1) not unless you heavily slot them for recharge, even then maybe nto likely.

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THat is my choice of slotting now isn't it? you are saying that it is wrong to 3 slot for recharge and 3 slot for taunt? And it is very likely. Test it on the Test server sometime.
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Turn off auras and only use that single 5 target taunt power and try to keep 17 mobs agroed on you.


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Since taunt is a AOE that gets 5 at a time and, as an Invul/* I have an aura with taunt from day 1, no problem.
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2) you just broke your own statement by mentioning the aura


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Since I qualified it as Invul/* I have invalidated nothing. I said Gaunlet helps to keep them their for everyone but Invul/* You can still spam taunt to hold them their as well.
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You need to go back to what Gauntlet was made for, which was to give tankers the appearence of doing their job by being a threat ( i.e. using their secondaries to do damage). In this case, for players that want to use it, it is successful. I can jump around and gather and hold argo by wacking mobs. As an Invul/* I can also just taunt/provoke and do the same thing without Gauntlet.

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It was made for:

1) help tanks keep agro without going to pool powers
2) give tankers the option of holding agro without needing to spam provoke


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Actually, no. Changing the Taunt power to AOE was the answer to #1. Not part of Gauntlet.
#2. Tankers always had the option of using their secondaries since a tanker's damage had a higher "hate" factor than anyone elses. Did it work? Not even close and was single target as all damage auras did not have the incerased "hate" in them. Gauntlet is the AOE effect of punchvoke.
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Before this every attack the tanker tossed meant he stoped spamming provoke (that was usualy 3 sloted for recharges and 3 for duration... yikes)


Anyways the point is Gauntlet IS designed for you to be able to use your primary to soak damage, in that its working as designed, its just overkill since you already can reach the taunt cap easily without it.

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And I have pointed out that your statement is untrue. I do not need gauntlet to hold argo. Is it fun? No but I do not NEED gauntlet to hold argo. If I play a taunt-bot, espically an Invul/*, I will gain no benifit from Gauntlet

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Taunt or provoke on their own wont get you all the agro you want to actually use that primary. You need your attacks' taunt (specialy the AoE attacks) for this. Im not saying you need the AoE taunt on every hit (altough it helps a bit) as i myself stated already all you need is a taunt aura and a single AoE attack.

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Taunt or provoke can, even slowly, get all the argo you can handle. Four taunts, at different groups, will put me over the limit. I can use the aura power of my primary to keep them there. Gaunlet helps will all but Invul in that case.

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Gauntlet in no way helps you use your secondary, but it does is a reward for using your secondary, in a way. Just like Supremacy, the mastermind inherent, gives their pets a buff as a reward for the mastermind risking his skin in the middle of agro range, and blasters get rewarded with Defiance for taking damge, something they would normaly at all costs avoid. Kheledian's inherent gives random buffs that in no direct way enhance their roles, they simply get rewarded for teaming with others and so on and so on.

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You need to go back to what Gauntlet was made for, which was to give tankers the appearence of doing their job by being a threat ( i.e. using their secondaries to do damage). In this case, for players that want to use it, it is successful. I can jump around and gather and hold argo by wacking mobs. As an Invul/* I can also just taunt/provoke and do the same thing without Gauntlet.

Gauntlet just changes the way I do my job but does not make it better. I like Gauntlet because I hate taunt/provoke and all it stands for.

Acctually, it is there so tankers can use their secondaries. To use your primaries you just need taunt or provoke.

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Wait, then this means the tanker is the only AT that actually had a true inherent from day one, and it just got bumped up a bit with issue 3? (was that issue 3?)!!

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Tanker attacks didn't Taunt at release (at least I don't think they did), but it was added early on.

According to Zloth's history it happened for Issue 3:

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The Taunting powers were changed. Before, tanks and some scrappers had a taunt power that would taunt one and only one enemy. The tanks' version auto-hit. To really do any crowd control, however, they needed to get the Provoke power from the Presence power pool. Tanks noted that it was pretty silly to make them take a power pool to be able to do their crowd control. The devs agreed and changed the powers around. Tanks' Taunt power was made AoE and was still auto-hit. Scrapper's Taunt was changed to Confront, a single target taunt and I think it's auto-hit. Also, every single tank attack power was given a minor AoE taunting effect (commonly called punchvoke now).

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Very true. Tanker attacks had "more weight" at the beginning (read increased hate for you WoW/EQ folks) but blaster/scrapper damage just blew right through it so tankers had to resort to a power pool or single target taunt. The screams to do away with provoke-bots and to have a more active way of getting argo let to punchvoke.

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My problem with Gauntlet goes something like this:

I recently make a Fire/SS Tank. I did plan to take Taunt, but not until the late 20s, figuring I'd get by with Gauntlet until then.

In order to provide for my defenses (to allow me to survive the aggro I was hoping to get), I only had Jab, Boxing, Haymaker as my attacks. Even when I hit consistently, I noticed that enemies would yo-yo back and forth between me and my teammates (small teams). The Gauntlet-provided taunt duration seemed to be very short, as enemies very quickly turned back to whoever they were attacking.

It got to the point where I was so dissatisfied with it that I ended up changing around my plans and taking Taunt at 16. Now I can actually tank, because it is a reliable power that keeps enemies attacking me for a significant amount of time.

So my questions would be:
1) Is Gauntlet only suitable if you slot Taunt duration in it?
2) If so, why do we have to slot our powers for our inherent, while others don't?

And while I'm at it... if the base duration of Gauntlet/taunt is so short for low-damage powers, what good would taunt enhancements do? Increasing a tiny number by a small percentage still results in a tiny number.

Good gaming!

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If you want to just use gauntlet for your argo then you need to slot taunt enhancements in your powers. Without the taunt enhancements it is very weak. Yes you lose something for this so you have to decide if you solo more then don't add them or team more so you can lose the damage for the argo control.

I currently recommend putting 2 taunts in any aura power that you will be running. In Invincibility, it really holds the mobs close once you can reel them in.

I'm not a fan of taunt but it has it uses for pulling and saving squishies.

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And he's also admitted that anyone can Tank. So if Tanking is supposed to be the realm of Tankers, and anyone can Tank, then what again is so special about Tanks? (possible answers that have been disproven by these conversations: agro management, and higher health)

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I'm like deleriously tired after an all night LAN party with copious amounts of alcohol so if I'm like all over the place - sorry.

Also the same arguement for saying multiple tankers being redundant is the same for defenders. Either way it's going to be an extremely safe experience.


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I must take into account that you have a lot of alcohol in your system but...I just do not understand this statement. Lets go at it from the high end. 8 defenders or 8 tankers? Which team can complete any mission? Which team will have an absurdly easy time completing missions?

If you picked the team that can buff their party and debuff opponents you are correct.

Adding another defender is always good. Even if the team has nothing but defenders in it.
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I also agree with Statesman that no one AT is a requirement. I've grouped in practically every combination out there - and even on Invincible I'd be surprised if there was one specific combination that's needed. Maybe desired, but not needed.

Not knocking any AT here, but I don't think any are a requirement as a rule. There are exceptions such as specific AV's, but that tends to vary with each AV, and I think it's more power-set specific.

I mean, I used to play in blaster-only AoE groups and we'd take turn nuking groups or try different combinations. And lord knows we've heard about how useless Blasters are supposed to be on teams, right? Even in the lower levels, there were pure AoE attacks (non-nuke) and we'd just wipe mobs away. All it took was teamwork and timing.

The anyone can tank arguement also applies to blasters and scrappers, as anybody can do damage. But blasters and scrappers not only have a head start in that department, they do more damage after buffs. Anyone can mitigate damage, like Controllers, Defenders and Tankers. But offense is a good way of doing that, too.

That's about all I can muster.

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Again, taking alcohol into account. I have yet to hear a time, post ED, that a tanker was NEEDED for a mission. Anytime that adding a controller or any other AT would not work out fine. If you have a tanker on a team he NEEDS a defender but a defender on a team does not need a tanker.

I do remember a debate in the closed beta about SO being too powerful. I also talked to Jack, face-to-face, at a GenCon about adjusting SO's since they were the problem. He said it was too difficult to do.

Kali needs to keep posting the truism she has used in the past. The Devs will have three solutions for a problem. Any one of which would solve it. They will implement all three.

I'm accualy experiencing a bug from my DA sounds when I exit a mission. I will get a sound loop and crash the game if I'm running my DA armors. Not the CoV is the most stable game out there...

Yet another reason to fade the sound :-)

Declaring a Brute as fun is a sure way to get it nerfed into oblivion. Look in the other forums. If we do not start complaining real soon someone will notice. Fun ATs are not alowed after I6.

SMASH SMASH SMASH

I mean... wimper smush whimper

No fun here. Please move on. I heard some master minds talking about fun.

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Feel free to add Controller + Scrapper + Blaster + Blaster

PS: I tend to focus on Defenders because since I stopped playing my Tank my Defender has become my Main and he out performs by Tank by a significant margin IMO.

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This thread is depressing.

Just do the all defender team and see the power.

I'm about ready to give up on all of my tankers. As a casual player I have none that are 50 yet and will never get there it seems. I agree with Jagged in that my Defender is my best option and most fun to play. Tankers are all forced into the scranker roll with out the tools to do the job.

Once the devs are done castrating the AT perhaps thay can review the "fun factor" again.

When you do your tests with multiple tankers look for the ability to play ping-pong with the mobs. One tactic is to vary AOE knockdown attacks and taunt. Good for argo control bad for damage.


I've not tested it on the new CoH but a tela-tank might do the same thing by bouncing around, taunting and knocking people around.

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Just a quick thought:

Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)

Defender damage = 66% blaster damage

Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?

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Because at the end of Beta, Blasters got a damage boost and a Endurance decrease.

To me it seems more of a problem with the 40+ game than with anything else. I think most people would say the the game is balanced or pretty well off up to 40. The ATs had peaked with their power and everyone is useful. Then you guys added those 10 extra levels and all he11 has broken loose (we will not talk about Hamie enhancements).

You have played Champions (PnP game). You know it is insane to have an AT with the highest HP and 90% resists. It is impossible to design scenarios when you have to take that into account. What can challenge the Tanker will 1-2 shot the squishies. Drop the resist cap to 80-85% and defenders are much more welcome. But if you do that you need to look at the damage done at the higher levels by mobs and reduce it. That will increase the survivability of some of the squishies.

I personally would rather see speical villian teams ( tanker busting teams) that target tankers above other ATs and have speical attacks to try to take them down. It would be more fun and more comic bookish but also more work for the Devs.

What does that have to do with Defenders? A lot in the high end game. Either tankers need to come down (to help lower the mob damage) or more speicalized defender-only abilities need ot be added to protect teammates from the current level of the endgame.

Overall, keep making the builds fun to play. If the heroes in the endgame are all powerful enough to solo it is fine. Do not force grouping. The JSA and JLA members could all solo but were stronger as a team.

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Also, if we go by this theory of divine inspiration, then we don't even have to assume that Recluse is inspired by a Greek deity. Of course, the helmet design would suggest it, but it might just as well be that he is an Avatar of Kali or Shiva (as the extra 'arms' would suggest), and there may well be others out there. Once you include obscure sects from every religion that has ever existed, the number of Gods becomes Legion.

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Best idea I've seen as to the "god" behind Lord Recluse. I was trying to think of who it might be and did not recall any spider gods other than the Trickster. But Kali or Shiva, those are excellent choices.

What powers do we know the Lord Recluse has other than Super Strength?

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I love the VS system. Heck, I play every Wednesday night. But we're not looking to duplicate their gameplay or overal system.

We chose AEG because of their dynamite record with card games. I love L5R - and Doomtown is one of the all time greats. I felt most comfortable with the direction that they're taking. Rest assured, we're involved in the process and aren't about to just throw this over the proverbial fence.

The RPG and the CCG are NOT about trying to make $. Instead, I pushed for both of these products because I knew they'd be cool. Strange, hunh? I'm not just the designer of CoH, but I'm also a fan. And as a fan, I want to see those things. So heck, we've been working on these things for quite a while.

So, if you aren't familiar with AEG yet - check 'em out!

See you in Wizard World LA!

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Talking about RPGs, I must say that I am a system gamer. Meaning that a game must have a good system for it to work with me. It is why I love Champions and L5R and why I HATE Deadlands. Deadlands had a good story but a awlful, awlful system.

For the CCG it is good to go with AEG. I definitly give it a look.

My vote would be Cyberpunk

I like the stone armors the way they are ( but would like some stacking). They could help by removing some of the mez resistance from rooted and adding it to an armor(s) once they can stack.

I think you will find that the Stone tanker will be the toughest tanker bar none. Espically when they allow other armors to stack with rock armor. For that trade off I can be rooted for a bit.

It will be interesting for some of the power sets. Right now I'm thinking of a peak power hit with beheader with buildup. Now Axe tankers can put up some big numbers already. Will big damage sets have less of an increase of damage than say SS and energy?