I don't see what the fuss is all about. My Dark/Elec defender is probably the most valuable player on Archvillain teams.
Also, I have a feeling this will become what Issue 3 did for Tankers. They complained about not doing enough damage, and now you have powersets that outdamage scrapper sets. I hope something will be done so that it doesn't upset balance.
Thanks for the heads up, Statesman. I am glad that my beloved AT is generally where you want it to be! 
I do want to mention that from my experience, the fact that Controllers get Defender primaries as their secondaries makes a lot of defenders superfluous. I realize the buff is less, but at higher levels, powers have matured to the point that the difference between a defender buff and a controller buff is irrelevant. I find this especially true for my kineticist. My Fulcrum Shift caps damage, but so does the Controller's Fulcrum Shift, and they bring a lot more to the table than I do. Same with Speed Boost; they might give less +recovery than me, but they still give more than most players need. It would be nice to feel wanted again, and not feel like a leech on my SG. Sometimes I feel like they only invite me along out of pity 
Statesman, I've played on both sides of a defender (played one, teamed with them). What I often encountered was:
* Teamed with a defender, I found my characters could do stuff they already could do before, but faster and better. Defenders in this situation didn't feel useful at all. I've also found I could do things that I could not do otherwise due to buffs or debuffs.
* Teamed as a defender, I find that on large teams, say with two AoE blasters and a tanker (along with four others), I have almost enough time to lay Darkest Night and Tar Patch before one of the blasters hits inferno - often, I lay one debuff before it happens. Outside inferno, stuff still dies very quickly, but it's hard to tell how helpful the debuffs are when the fight's over so quickly.
However, in both circumstances, the defender is making a difference, it just doesn't always feel that way. People see the green numbers that defenders generate, and the larger orange numbers that Fortitude, Accelerate Metabolism, Tar Patch, Enervating Field, and Freezing Rain generate. They're less likely to notice how useful force fields are since an attack that doesn't hit and get healed is sort of out of sight, out of mind.
Anyway, I'm not saying that it's all perception, but I think there is a strong element of perception at work.
Edit to add: I've also been in situations where a controller's healers are just plain superior to mine. I play a Dark Miasma defender, and the heals in question were kinetics. I know that Twilight Grasp has a pretty substantial heal and that Transfusion isn't far off from it. I'm not saying that there should never be an occasion when a Controller can outheal a defender, but it does seem that controller secondaries are very close to defender primaries in capability.
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Controllers are superior to Defenders at providing team defense.
The problem is that defenders must often take numerous powers to provide adequate defense.
A controller often only need one, some form of lockdown. To add that the controller gets secondary team defense in defender secondaries.
A controller can one shot hold a minion/lieut, and with two quick recharging holds can remove a boss from a fight. Defenders cannot compare in this regard.
The best solution is to tamper with Controller secondaries, making them more offensive, and less defensive.
The result is that controllers are not as good at healing/buffing/debuffing, but are more offensive, this will increase the value of defender buffs.
This increases contorller soloability at lower levels, and increases defender importance across the board.
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BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels.
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I staunchly disagree with this mentality. Defenders aren't needed, that's the way it should be. No team should HAVE to get a defender to be successful, defenders should just make the battles safer and/or faster, which they do. And as for "can't find a team," Everyone thinks that they can't find a team, everyone has that problem and it's just dumb luck.
edit: One thing that I think should be looked into is the relationship between defenders and controllers. The funny thing is that this relationship has problems because of the relationship between tankers and controllers.
Let's see if I can explain this coherently...It seems to me that a controller's primary is too weak and their secondary is too strong. If someone wants to play a character that stops enemies from hurting their friends, they'll generally choose a tanker instead of a controller since controller holds aren't as reliable as a tanker's taunt. If someone wants to buff or debuff they have the nearly equally plausable options of controller and defender. The main difference is that controllers have pets that will deal damage while they use their secondary, while defenders have slightly more powerful support abilities but have to take a break from that if they want to add damage to the group.
Of course, the issues are much more complicated than this, but I've done my best to give my opinions on this subject. Please keep in mind that I've never played a controller so there's a decent chance I have no idea what I'm talking about.
I, too, have a problem with the high level Defenders and their roles on teams. Playing a Dark Defender I've been able to avoid many of the pitfalls that others would fall into. However, there is an issue that they aren't separated enough from Controllers that groups would prefer to choose a Defender over a Controller for many of the same situations.
You'd think in the highest difficulty battles, AV's, that a Defender would be desired. Many times in the teams I've been on people have asked for a Rad Controller. When I've said how about a Rad Defender, you know because they DeBuff more, they've said they'd rather have someone who can do actual damage. It's mind boggling but it happens.
I'd also like to point out that there are some combo's of Controllers + Defender secondaries where Controllers achieve 90+% Defender efficiency. This one has been said several times but
FF/* Defender:
. Ins/Def+Dispersion = 43.75% Base DEF, 0% to Psychic
Ill/FF Controller
. Group Invis+Ins/Def+Dispersion = 42.5% DEF, 7.5% to Psychic
Do I want to see Controller Nerfs? No! But there has got to be some differentiation. In essence, is that Controller providing more? At the higher lvls, yes. Group Invis might not last as long as the shields but not only does it protect against Psychic damage but it's DEF bonus lasts about as long as a normal, non-AV fight lasts.
Look at the difference between a Rad/* Defender and an Earth/Rad Controller. The base DEF Debuff of RI+Earthquake is comparable to that of the Defender's RI. However, the Defender often has to slot it for Acc DeBuff because he does not posses a power which deals continual KnockUp to his opponents. EF might give a 7% larger RES DeBuff but the Controller can gear himself to -DEF and -RES while the Defender must split it between -RES, -ACC and/or -DEF.
Let me make a pole in the AT section with several powers listed so that you get a good feel for how others are percieving the shared sets. I know it would be enlightening. You basically have to ask yourself, since you and the Dev team do play this game too, can you honestly tell in the course of normal game (i.e. PvE) play the difference between a Defender's and a Controller's:
Clear Mind
Fortitude
Recovery Aura
Regenerative Aura
Adrenalin Boost
Deflection Shield
Insulation Shield
Dispersion Bubble
Force Bubble
Transfusion
Increase Density
Speed Boost
Inertial Reduction
Transference
Fulcrum Shift
Radiation Infection
Accelerate Metabolism
Enervating Field
Lingering Radiation
EM Pulse
Steamy Mist
Freezing Rain
Hurricane
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Basically, we've already committed to looking at several Archetypes and builds for I5 and afterwards, but I've said nary a word about Defenders. Why? Because of all the Archetypes, we're happiest with them. There are certainly issues with individual sets and powers - and those we're always looking at. Defenders, however, don't have any overarching problems.
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I must agree that out of all the AT's in the game defenders are better off than the rest at the moment. But don't be fooled by this statement, defenders do have problems. One for example is the fact that controllers can excess our primary's to their fullest potential and it's their secondary. The poster child of this stigma is the storm summoning power set. With various effects such as knockback, scatter, and fear the job of a storm defender is significantly harder than a */storm controller that can lock down mobs to stay within debuffs. Perhaps buffing defender primaries or adding more variety to controller secondaries can help with this situation.
Also between the defender ATÂ’s Storm Summoning is the runt of the litter with nothing significant to provide to team play that would warrant an invite, especially in higher levels. There is a huge defender post with various issues and concerns about the current state of storm summoning in the eyes of the heroes who play the set here.
The worst I could think of to say about Defenders is, "They get underestimated by idiots, and sometimes it makes them bitter."
I pick a Defender primary over a Controller secondary every time. . .though I am a math geek and so I notice the difference in power.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
My only problem with Defenders is lack of Mez Resistance.
Nearly everything else Bar Blasters, has access to some form of Mez Resistance. (Blasters being able to Kill Quickly)
If Defenders would have access to something like the Psionic PP, then we would be better rounded, and not being the first things Held/Slept/Confused = Dead
This might just be, due to my Kinetics Origin, which in itself has some flaws that need addressing.
As to Statesman's 2nd Paragraph ... I think we ALL know what this spells out.
Controller Pets and Tankers getting NERFED at Late-Game.
And I say .....
It's about damn time.
Just make sure us Controllers get some REAL loving pre-32 
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As to Statesman's 2nd Paragraph ... I think we ALL know what this spells out.
Controller Pets and Tankers getting NERFED at Late-Game.
And I say .....
It's about damn time.
Just make sure us Controllers get some REAL loving pre-32
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You know, I don't really think pets are as much the problem. It's that the controller secondaries are almost as powerful as defender primaries once they have access to all the powers.
The largest benefit a defender has is that they get the powers earlier, but come level 40, a controller has all the same powers, fully slotted if they want, and almost as effective. There is a difference but it's just not enough to make a large difference most of the time.
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You know, I don't really think pets are as much the problem.
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Controller pet powers are just so much more powerful than their other powers that it becomes a must have. It's not good for a power set to have one amazing power and eight luke-warm ones, and that's the way that many view the controller power sets.
Statesman,
While I would generally agree that the Defender AT seems to be in a good position, I think you would be hard-pressed to say all the individual sets within the AT are equally viable. More specifically, the added defense of Force Fields (a hallmark of the set) provides negligible benefit in many high-level PvP situations. Super Reflexes for Scrappers has a similar problem, but I read from another post that you had replied in a PM that you would be looking at that.
I hope Force Fields is on the list of power sets that need balancing, and that it has a fairly high priority.
Savant
Level 50 Defender - Force Fields/Psychic Blast
Thank you for posting here, Statesman.
Like many of the other people in this thread, I think that defenders aren't really fine. I don't think that defenders - or any other AT - should be strictly "needed" at any level.
However, I think beyond the idea of being needed or not, that defenders simply are redundant in the upper level game. There's no capability unique to the AT, and there's nothing we're notably "best at" in the late game.
I am reading many of the developer statements about I5 to be telegraphing a nerf for tanks, scrappers, and controllers. I'm not really happy about that. I don't want other people to "need" defenders out of their weaknesses. That's not fun. The EQ model of having to have a cleric around isn't super-heroic. And being the cleric who needs to have other people around, that won't make defenders feel super-heroic either.
I would much, much rather have my defender character improved so that teams will want me because of my strength, rather than need me because of their weakness.
Edit - and, it's okay for an AT to be a hybrid AT, but defenders aren't at the right hybrid place. The AT as a whole needs more personal defense. Higher hitpoints. Some sort of status resistance and greater protection from damage. The reason for this is that while our secondaries are ranged... our primaries are only half-ranged.
Alot of the primaries are full of PBAOE powers, or toggle debuffs where 'hugging the anchor' is the one of the only ways to keep everything in the debuff area. Defenders who are employing their primaries are - varying somewhat from primary to primary of course - exposing themselves to just as much "splash damage" and melee risk as scrappers do... and potentially are generating a lot more aggro with area debuff powers.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Some one PM'ed me about this issue - and I've talked about Defenders a bit at conventions - so I thought I'd at least post something on them.
Basically, we've already committed to looking at several Archetypes and builds for I5 and afterwards, but I've said nary a word about Defenders. Why? Because of all the Archetypes, we're happiest with them. There are certainly issues with individual sets and powers - and those we're always looking at. Defenders, however, don't have any overarching problems.
BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels. Defenders should fill a valuable role at ALL levels and help Archetypes achieve levels that they can't reach by themselves. After all, Defenders are all about buffs (and debuffs). Every Archetype should be extremely happy when the Defender provides a resistance or defense buff...
Anyway, just wanted to post our view on Defenders right now.
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Jack, unless people see a *visible* sign that you are helping, they don't realize the Defenders benefit.
As a high level defender, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I can do, but it's basically invisible to most people. They see a blob of green or black and don't relate that to the archvillian not hurting the entire team.
Unless you can turn on exactly what a lot of defenders do into some sort of visible phenomonia, your average player may not really understand.
I'd really like an option that would put a visible "blocked" or "$damage reduced" on peoples screens in a unique color. Then they'll realize that the defender *are* doing their job, even when the green numbers aren't flying above their heads.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I don't see what the fuss is all about. My Dark/Elec defender is probably the most valuable player on Archvillain teams.
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Well of course you don't. You can solo them! The rest of us get screwed.
The message I get from this post is...
Don't bother making a Defender other than Rad/* or Dark/* because you're just setting yourself up to suck. And it's intended.
Guess it's back to soloing 8 player Invincible maps on my Scrapper. 
I think Defenders generally are in good shape overall, but some of the sets do need a little help.
The darks and rads seen pretty happy and useful throughout; they don't need anything but some tweaking here and there if that.
The empaths complain a bit their heals are unneeded in the higher levels, but RA, clear mind, and fortitude are usually still quite welcome and the heals still play an important part in some groups, so they are probably more or less fine as is.
The kineticists still provide the supercharge to speed up teams usefully to the end. Perhaps Fulcrum needs to be made a bit more powerful again but on the whole the set seems to work fine.
The FFs need something extra, because at the higher levels most people have either gotten their own defense in order or have the tools to either kill, hold, or resist enemies before defense becomes much of an issue. FF needs some sort of enemy debuff or ally buff (beyond defense) to somehow speed up the kill rate so as to make them more useful at the end of the game for teams that otherwise don't really need more defense.
There is no major problem with Storm (in the hands of skilled players) except for the fact that Storm is particularly seen as a better controller secondary, mainly because a controller can keep the enemies from being blown all over the place by Storm's major powers. The simplest fix is to give Storm some sort of ranged AOE immobilize that prevents knockback for a respectible amount of time.
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I don't see what the fuss is all about. My Dark/Elec defender is probably the most valuable player on Archvillain teams.
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Well of course you don't. You can solo them! The rest of us get screwed.
The message I get from this post is...
Don't bother making a Defender other than Rad/* or Dark/* because you're just setting yourself up to suck. And it's intended.
Guess it's back to soloing 8 player Invincible maps on my Scrapper.
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Yeah, now is not the time to act as if defenders are okay just because Statesman may see them that way. Now is not the time to talk about the best qualities of the defender AT's while ignoring the worst. We all know the perks that each set has to offer but there needs to be a clear portrayal of what is not like and what needs attention.
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BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels.
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In high level Drek herding parties, maybe. In normal missions against difficult opponents, they are a great help. Not needed (no single AT is ever needed) but always very handy.
Storms do seem to have issues with all the knockback. They have issues keeping the bad guys in the freezing rain, too. However, in a controller's hands, Storm is a superb set. You might want to balance this on the defender side while leaving the controller side alone.
Controllers are NOT as good as defenders at defending. Not only is there the matter of strength of powers, there's a different mindset. Just as defenders normally start with their buffs/debufs then worry about maybe blasting some things, controllers first worry about getting all the bad guys mez'ed then worry about maybe buffing/debuffing some folks.
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Edit to add: I've also been in situations where a controller's healers are just plain superior to mine. I play a Dark Miasma defender, and the heals in question were kinetics. I know that Twilight Grasp has a pretty substantial heal and that Transfusion isn't far off from it. I'm not saying that there should never be an occasion when a Controller can outheal a defender, but it does seem that controller secondaries are very close to defender primaries in capability.
[/ QUOTE ] I think that transfusion, even a controllers tranfusion, should heal signifficantly more than a dark defenders. To be honest, I think a dark defenders heal should be weakened signifficantly. Why? Not only is it very powerful right now, and easier to use than transfusion, but dark servants ALSO cast it. A dark defender casts it, gets a good 500+ heal, then two or more dark servants cast it, huzzah, two or more +200 heals! Don't you think this is even a -little- unfair?
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You know, I don't really think pets are as much the problem.
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Controller pet powers are just so much more powerful than their other powers that it becomes a must have. It's not good for a power set to have one amazing power and eight luke-warm ones, and that's the way that many view the controller power sets.
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The only reason controllers slobber over their pets so much is that they finally get to do damage. They never stop using the other quote lukewarm unquote powers; those other powers are what allow pets to work their magic.
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I don't see what the fuss is all about. My Dark/Elec defender is probably the most valuable player on Archvillain teams.
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Well of course you don't. You can solo them! The rest of us get screwed.
The message I get from this post is...
Don't bother making a Defender other than Rad/* or Dark/* because you're just setting yourself up to suck. And it's intended.
Guess it's back to soloing 8 player Invincible maps on my Scrapper.
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That's hardly the point. The point is that the Defender should be making the team more awesome. I say that the best Defender is one whose effect on the team isn't immediately noticeable. I'll leave the flashy holds to the controller. I'll stick to my Fearsome Stare and Tar Patch
Appreciate the message regarding high level defender play. Although I didn't see it stated, I can only assume your comments are meant to address PvP in addition to PvE. For the record, I really enjoyed playing my level 50 Kinetics Defender in PvE before disciplines were removed - she lived on them - literally.
With regard to PvP, high level Defenders, for the most part, are seriously lacking. Hamidon enhancements exacerbate the issue, but the problem is more fundamental. High level defenders lack both defensive and offensive potency.
Debuffs generally do not provide good defense. Take my Kinetics Defender's fulcrum shift and siphon power for example, her primary defensive debuffs. In PvP, the damage reduction applies only to base damage. If for whatever reason a Kinetics defender is unappreciated on a high level PvE team, where he/she can substantially reduce the amount of incoming damage, consider the case in PvP where the debuff is much much less.
Ancillary power pool armors do help provide personal defense, but these are toggles which can easily be dropped. I say easily because Defenders, with the exception of Force Fielders, do not have access to personal status protection powers. Whereas Blasters generally make do with less defense because of their superior damage, and Controllers compliment Defender type debuffs with control powers, Defenders are by no means a "happy medium".
Again focusing on my Kinetics Defender because of personal experience, the reduction to the effectiveness of endurance drain in PvP (although less for Defenders than Blasters), again really hurts her defensive capability. It is especially futile when coupled with the addition of end drain resistance to many powers.
As I've mentioned, Disciplines were her lifeline in PvE. Breakfees are nice in that they protect against all status effects, but their limited effectiveness against stacked effects and shorter duration usually means that they are not effective at providing defense long enough for a defender to have meaningful impact on a PvP battle. This can also be true in PvE.
Offensively, Defenders have lived with 66% Blaster damage for a long time. And for the most part, in PvE, it is liveable. In PvP however, Defender damage is ineffective. In PvP, the gap between Blaster and Defender damage is increased even more because a percentage of Blaster damage is unresistable. Blasters also have the benefit of increasing their lethality through good toggle dropping powers.
As a Defender in PvE, I could always be thankful that I had access to a decent set of blasts, for that is what made me different from a Controller. In high level PvP, my whole identity went out the window with the change to controllers such that they now do double and triple damage when their target is held. Many high level Controllers already do great damage with pets.
The damage multiplier, plus thier holding abilities, plus thier Defender type debuffs, plus their access to a status protection ancillary power make Controllers far far superior to their Defender counterparts in high level PvP.
Speaking for myself, I don't want my high level Defender to be uber in PvP. I just want to be competitive and able to contribute to a team.
If you are talking high level PvE and not PvP, it's not that I don't appreciate the attention in any case. However, it's just that I was really looking forward to exploring PvP now that I've hit 50.
First off, thank you Statesman for posting this. Being one of the more vocal defenders, and one that always has my brethren on the look out, this mean a lot.
Many of us have been frustrated with the lack of response regarding our concerns. This acknowledgement goes a long way. So thank you.
It's a shame that a possibility of everyone getting nerfed down to defenders. I really think a small boost our way would help much more. Hopefully all of our arena testing and 41+ play is providing some good numbers.
First concern from many of us is the feeling of uselessness in the 41+, more so with a controller on the team.
By the time 41+ comes around, our secondary just overlap to much. Our secondary damage is not that strong, so we are lacking something. The holds, immobilize etc. from their primary greatly increase the power of the secondary. It is to late now to change the overlapping pools. May I suggest that any future defender primary not be controller secondary like Dark/ and the same for Destroyers and the controller equivalent in COV. Possible secondary fix would be: Leave damage at it's current spot and greatly increase the secondary effects of our blasts. Let them be noticeable. -acc, -def, etc. Slotting these qualities now is almost worthless. This might also encourage some defenders to take and use their secondary to benefit the team.
A secondary major concern is mez protection in the 41+ game. With epics, everyone but blasters and defenders gets some sort of mez protection, and everyone gets a hold. I would trade a drop in the %res on my epic shield for some mez protection. Even something more than acrobatics and slightly less than IW. If you could monitor the amount of break frees purchased in the arena I wonder what it would be? Going into a match with less than 15 break frees is a death sentence.
Or possibly a slight HP increase to raise our survivability out of the 1 to 2 shot range?
Finally something to help out the -acc debuff and +def buff sets. In terms of the arena these powers can be voided by FA, Drone, HO's etc. (This is coming from someone with almost 30 HO's).
There are no simple answers or solutions. Thanks for the response and we will continue to provide data by PVE and arena play. Lets hope the future in the 41+ game is bright for all defenders.
Cheers!
Some one PM'ed me about this issue - and I've talked about Defenders a bit at conventions - so I thought I'd at least post something on them.
Basically, we've already committed to looking at several Archetypes and builds for I5 and afterwards, but I've said nary a word about Defenders. Why? Because of all the Archetypes, we're happiest with them. There are certainly issues with individual sets and powers - and those we're always looking at. Defenders, however, don't have any overarching problems.
BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels. Defenders should fill a valuable role at ALL levels and help Archetypes achieve levels that they can't reach by themselves. After all, Defenders are all about buffs (and debuffs). Every Archetype should be extremely happy when the Defender provides a resistance or defense buff...
Anyway, just wanted to post our view on Defenders right now.