I staunchly disagree with this mentality. Defenders aren't needed, that's the way it should be. No team should HAVE to get a defender to be successful, defenders should just make the battles safer and/or faster, which they do.
I think any team of five or six people should be expected to require a Defender or Controller, and any team of seven or eight, or any team fighting an AV, should require both.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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This is the problem with defenders. Period. I asked states about this in a PM. Basically raising defender damage was out of the question, because they feel it will make blasters less needed....but the problem is this is exactly what is happening to Defenders from a Controller point of view.
My solution. 1) Either give defender self-defense powers...Or 2) give blasters self-defense powers and raise defender damage.
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Here's something that States can relate to, as he plays D&D:
Clerics are (primarily) for party support. They're the best healers, really good buffers, and pretty good debuffers. They don't have to suck when it comes to damage-dealing, and they have really good defensive capabilities on their own. Clerics need solid self-defense for the sake of the party.
Defenders are (primarily) for party support. They're the best healers, really good buffers, and pretty good debuffers. They don't have to suck when it comes to damage-dealing, but they have no significant defenses. Defenders need solid self-defense for the sake of the team.
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I recommend adding mez protection and damage mitigation of some kind to pre-40 Defenders. The anti-mez can be an inherent class ability using the same mechanic enjoyed by Bosses (-3 rating on status effects rather than the normal -1, IIRC). The defensive abilities would have to be powerset-based.
Unfortunately, that recommendation doesn't directly make Defenders more appealing to teams in the late game.
Indirectly, it definitely does, as people would classify only Blasters and Controllers as "squishies." Defenders would be viewed more as assets than potential liabilities.
Hmmm... Defenders get higher magnitudes... I kinda like that.
Defenders, not needed?
sure 25% damage buff means little to a 50 blaster... But it's great for a scrapper and tanker, and controller.
Sure a forcefield doesn't mean all that much to a capped tanker... but has he thought of turning off one or two pure-def toggles and enjoying more attacks while these are up? And I know for sure no blaster will EVER say no to some bubble action.
Then there's Speed-Boost (AKA "Crack")... AM (AKA the OTHER crack), Fortitude, healing, Fulcrum Shift, healing, Tar-Patch, Enervating-Field, Recovery Aura, the heals, the full-power rezzing, various healing powers, the BIG bubbles, Rad.infection, Shadowfall, O2Boost, steamy-mist, snowstorm, EM Pulse... All of these great things to have no matter what your level...
The only thing that MIGHT fall behind a little is just plain healing (even then, the blaster survivability upgrade package will probably make empaths extremely useful to us for non-RA reasons), but just remind your tankers that with it they can take even MORE enemies at a time...
Well this is absurd.
Defenders are not "needed" at any level. And we shouldn't be. If any AT "must" have another AT then this game is not a Superhero game but a City of "gimpy superheros who have to rely on others because we are so gimp" game.
What we defenders do is make everyone else better around us at what they do. This is true from the uberness of outbreak to the finality of 50.
That said, defenders don't "feel" uselful at the higher levels. So what? We are. Math geeks can show you the numbers to prove it. I just know it cause I played it. I've played a FF to 50 and a tank to 46 among others. I now know better than ever what my teamtes always told me. I made a difference. And all you high level defenders do too. If any other hero says you don't make a difference and don't want you on their team, leave em alone. There are plenty of heros who know that we are. I found it is always better and less filled with debt playing with people who either knew about the game or who were willing to learn.
The problem I see here was the battle with our own perception. I didn't always "see" the usefulness of myself. But the answer I always got back from teamates was " Agian you ask? Yes you are useful quit whining like a little school girl and don't even think of quiting the team because we want your help."
Agreed Pillcrow.
I will say that I am speaking more towards 41+ PVP. With somewhere around 100 matches under my built this concerns me as well. I also feel that the arena is a big test for COV which will have base raids, and pvp zones. I would like defenders to feel viable, in those areas as well.
(Actually had 6 defenders in an 8v8 match last night good fun, and I had a 1v1 against a Kin/Elec. that in the prior match destroyed my Fire/Fire tank in 1v1)
Being an Empath that did, and does not shy away from offense as anyone that I have played with in the arena can attest to, I never bought into the feeling of having to save end for my primary (I dont even use Stamina!). But my secondary did not become as exciting till I almost full slotted it out with HO's and now it does some serious damage. Power Build+Total Focus+Moonbeam is an almost 900 point combo.
Despite this the secondary is not that great in terms of damage, at least without a way to boost that damage with a power from my primary. But raisng the damage steps on blasters toes. Heck raise from 66% to 70% and then make the secondary effects much more noticible. End Drain and Knockback are noticable, but the -def, and -acc of sets like rad and dark are not very noticible because everyone can over come -def and -acc so easily now.
I think many defenders shy away from this area of the game is because of the squishy mez factor. Yes we were meant to be in teams, but even in teams it is hard to not get hit, and where a blaster can two shot you, some defense is nice. I have my TI which is great, and more than enough S/L resistance, but what I need more is some minor mez protection. Going through 15-20 break frees a match is a bit much. Or if some simple mez protection is to much how about a slight HP increase to move us out of the 1-2 shot range?
In the 41+ game the epics come in and things get even more blurred between sets. I can honestly say on my Fire/Fire tank I have never needed or used a defender. Defenders need something special. At 41+ a controller can do anything a defender of the same class can do and better, I honestly even feel I can use storm better on my 32 controller than a 32 storm defender. Once I lay down earthquake, quicksand, volcanic gases no one is going anywhere. So it is farily safe to throw freezing rain, push people around etc.
It does warm the heart to see some defenders in the arena other than myself. We now have a regular dark defender/elec that does great, a Kin/Elec that seems to do very well in 1v1 (despite my lucky 6 to 1 win), the occasional rad and the occasional storm. I have only seen one bubble defender. Bayne. In our large Virtue vs Liberty match last weekend and he seemd to do ok as well. But maybe if people had a tad more surviveability there would be more than controllers/blasters/scrappers in the arena. I see controllers/blasters more than anyone though.
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Just a quick thought:
Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)
Defender damage = 66% blaster damage
Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?
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Enervating field, freezing rain, and now tar patch.
Raising the defender secondaries would lead to offenders outdamaging blasters.
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Increasingly I'm seeing that as sham reasoning. Its not as if Fire Controllers, Fire Tankers, and Spines Scrappers don't exist and can't mow things down far faster and at higher rates of damage than a Blaster. One wonders why it was so critical to keep Defenders down, especially when if you factor in setup for the Defender (have to use Tar Patch, Enervating Field, or Freezing Rain) and the limitations involved (only having Aim at best) it is not clear how much of a lead if any those Defenders would have.
Under construction
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You know, I don't really think pets are as much the problem.
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Controller pet powers are just so much more powerful than their other powers that it becomes a must have. It's not good for a power set to have one amazing power and eight luke-warm ones, and that's the way that many view the controller power sets.
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You're BOTH RIGHT. ...it's Liquid....It's Ice...
No really, Unlike Defenders, certain Pet AI just concentrates on Damage like a scrapper or blaster. But on top of that it's harder for any mobs to Mez or Debuff that many at once so there's an out-numbering factor too. Blasters and Defenders just get in the way at late game when you've got a Pet-Factory with all the same defender buffs supporting some Tankers and Scrappers that are already outdamaging Blasters on raw DPS.
But I think the Issue that everyone's NOT looking at, is why this Uberness is demmanded so much in late game. ....Could it possibly be because it takes 3 times as long to levelup as it used to in the teens and twenties? ...mmmaaaybe...
This is a current thread on the controller board.
Current Controller Board Thread
For those of you who don't really want to jump on that thread it basically says...OP: Hey Im a low level controller and I feel like I'm not wanted and no one will team with me.
A lot of the responses: Don't worry...soon you will be Uber and then everyone will want you but then you will become too uber and no one will want to team with you and your crazy pets.
It's more like "if you can't find a team, make one".
My response was, "if you can't find a team, found a supergroup, 'cause that's what I did". 
I have an FF/Dark (shelved) at 38 and a Dark/Energy (happy) at 39.
I think to a large extent the developers HAVE to be happy with defenders, simply because of all the overlap. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Dark primary is the only Defender set that's seen major changes; they can change that set without worrying about how it will spill over to Controllers. When you look at improving Storm or FF or really any of the other primaries you have to balance changes for two AT's rather than one, and that's not a small task.
I see a lot of the issues this game has run into post-release as related to overlapping power lists. I certainly hope that we are learning from that, and not including overlaps in CoV.
To me Radiation and Dark are the two lines that should be held up as examples of how Primaries should be. With my Dark Defender I took eight of the nine powers in my Primary line (even before the Dark Pit change), all are usable solo or in a group, and most if not all are usable in a wide variety of situations. I think Rad is similar. That's the mark of a good Primary. I can say without hesitation that Force Field isn't even vaguely in that ballpark, that city, or even that county. I'm hoping that the evaluation of the DEF based sets will bring some changes to FF.
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Just a quick thought:
Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)
Defender damage = 66% blaster damage
Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?
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Enervating field, freezing rain, and now tar patch.
Raising the defender secondaries would lead to offenders outdamaging blasters.
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Increasingly I'm seeing that as sham reasoning. Its not as if Fire Controllers, Fire Tankers, and Spines Scrappers don't exist and can't mow things down far faster and at higher rates of damage than a Blaster. One wonders why it was so critical to keep Defenders down, especially when if you factor in setup for the Defender (have to use Tar Patch, Enervating Field, or Freezing Rain) and the limitations involved (only having Aim at best) it is not clear how much of a lead if any those Defenders would have.
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This I agree with, especially since I play a set with no ability to raise my damage through my primary. I never really noticed damage that much until I slotted them all out with HO's. Now they really shine, but still don't out shine blasters.
Cheers!
Balancing Storm for a Defender is EASY. You just crank up the primary effects for the Defenders, and leave it the way it is for controllers
Quick Examples:
Gale: Triple the Accuracy, double it's damage.
Freezing rain: 50% Res-Debuff instead of that measly 30%
Tornado: Set the Knockback Direction to always be facing the point it was spawned at.
O2-Boost: Cut the end-cost in half, or double the Heal.
SnowStorm: MAKE THE RECHARGE DEBUFF SLOTTABLE
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my gripe is being perma suppressed when you use anchor debuffs. that needs to be fixed so you're suppressed initially but not permanently. there's nothing you can do about someone outrunning your leash when you cant even keep up with them
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Yup, I've been playing my storm defender for over a year now and have always enjoyed doing so. Perma suppression is the only gripe i have as well.
Well balance in the Arena is screwed heavily against Defenders, but I can solve that one by just not going to the Arena (I don't and I won't).
Perma-suppressions though. . .well, I've already explained to Statesman how toggles have become nothing but a substandard mechanism and perma-supression is but another strike against them.
Under construction
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Well balance in the Arena is screwed heavily against Defenders, but I can solve that one by just not going to the Arena (I don't and I won't).
Perma-suppressions though. . .well, I've already explained to Statesman how toggles have become nothing but a substandard mechanism and perma-supression is but another strike against them.
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I gotta say, I have now seen a defender of every primary type hold his own in the arena. That Kin/Elec. defender last night was the first Kin I had seen and he was awesome (way to wreck melee Correspondent.)
If no defenders use the arena, and there is no data being pulled how do people expect it to ever work out? Or do people just plan to avoid all PVP in COV? Heck if an Empath can hold his own I would think just about the rest would have a fighting shot. It's a shame people wont give it a go, glad it is strong on Virtue.
Cheers!
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Hmmm... Defenders get higher magnitudes... I kinda like that.
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Could also do the Kheldian thing, where you start out with the same mez
vulnerability as all ATs, but each other non-defender gives you 1 more magnitude
of resistance.
So, in an 8-hero team, if you are the only defender, you have mag 7 resistance to
mez. If there are two defenders, you each have mag 6, and so on, so an 8
defender team has no mez resistance boost, but they probably just buff each other
anyways to cover that :-)
(My Stormie makes FF defenders happy because O2 boost covers their one
weakness: Sleep. In return, I am happy to be resistant to all but Sleep because
of their Dispersion Bubble. And if they were a nice FF defender, they picked up
Stimulant from the Medicine Pool :-) )
I say we put on the Test Server, that Controller secondaries are only 50% as good
as Defender primaries.
Maybe 50% is too much, but we could start by *making every single Controller
secondary power 80% of the Defender version.* This is a year+ oversight.
I have a 35 Earth/Storm and a 26 Storm/Elec, and I say, NERF my Controller
Secondary with the intended 80% that was supposed to have been done at
game launch. My Snow Storm should be 80% the recharge nerf of the Defenders.
My Freezing Rain should be 80% the resistance and defense debuff, 80% the
damage, etc. Especially since my ability to mass immobilize foes so they can't
run from Freezing Rain makes Freezing Rain BETTER on my Controller.
Balancing the other 4 ATs is already on the schedule for ish 5. Please, please,
Jack, ensure all Controller Secondary powers are 80% as effective as the Defender
version so we can at least see how that plays out.
I just don't personally get much out of PvP. I like cooperative play over competitive anyway, and there's no tangible reward to Arena victories, so PvP is just lost time where I could be leveling one of my characters...
This post is far too long for anything of mine to be noticed but I'll add it anyway.
The problem I see in the late 40's game for Defenders is the fact that a Defender's "strength" in buff/debuff no longer has the impact that it used to in the early game. The Melee ATs don't need any more protection and the damage ATs rarely need damage boosts. The only thing these ATs need is increased killing speed via a buff to endurance recovery, resistance to Psi, or a decrease in recharge times. That's all Defenders are good for in the late game. Thus, you get Empathy Defenders all over the place for RA and AB and Force Fielders are left in the dark because a Regen Scrapper or a Fire Tank does just fine with or without bubbles.
Now, solo, Defenders, IMO, are fine just because we can buff ourselves. But, as I just witnessed last night, a Blaster completely, utterly, and totally outshines a Defender in damage. That doesn't bother me so much except that Defenders barely seem to have an advantage over Controller Secondaries.
The idea of giving Defenders inherent mag protection would be nice but I also suggest giving us the HP boost that many would like to see. There was another post about Defenders having very few Mez protection powers and that too is another hole in the AT. Almost every Scrapper or Tank Defense has "the" power that gives status resistance. Once you get this power and run it, you're virtually immune. Defenders get...Acrobatics? Not even in the Epic pools do we get any love. How are we supposed to do our job if we're mezzed 50% of the time in a fight?
At any rate, I'm not complaining all that much because I have a Dark/Dark that isn't shared by Controllers or Blasters. My Powers are unique and I have a lot of tricks up my sleeves. Once I get Dark Embrace + Shadowfall I'll have resistance to everything but Fire/Cold by at least 40% and I'll be able to take damage somewhat. Mez will still be my bane though.
Thanks for looking at us States and if I could sum up this entire thread, as I have read it, in a brief statement it is this:
Increase the gap between Defender Primaries and Controller Secondaries and allow us to do our job better than anyone else. In that regard, we will become useful in the late game.
D3 Bible I6/ED
Bots /FF Guide
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Jack, let me hit a nail on the head:
So long as ANY archetype can hit a resist or defense cap (or equivalent) on their
own, merely by their own power choices and slotting, you will never achieve this
goal.
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I tend to agree with this statement. I'm not the type to cry nerf, but it's reasonable to think that some of the defensive sets make the game far too easy, and may see some changes. Personally, instead of nerfing these sets, I'd much rather see improvments to mob AI to limit herding, and I'd love to see more dificult and challenging content added... especially in the higher levels.
Harder fights = more of a need for buffing/debuffing = more interest in having defenders on the team
Now as for the defender/controller overlap, I play both, and love both... but I do think it's unfortunate (for both defenders and controllers) that controllers don't have any unique secondaries. Still, that isn't something that's going to change. I suppose what could be a viable compromise would be to continue to buff some of the Defender primaries, in cases where there's little practical difference between Defender primary and Controller secondary. They've already done a little of this by increasing the power of the Kinetics heal for defenders, and increasing the slow effect of Freezing Rain for defenders. It's probably an area where more could be done... and without hurting controllers.
I tried out the Arena with Star. What I found was if HO's aren't in the picture I can hold my own even 1-on-1 against non-Ice and non-stealth Blasters (no protection from KB or my Epic holds) and some Scrappers (MoB neuters a lot of Scrapper primaries, but I can't damage most Scrappers enough to hurt them in return). Just about any Controller will kick my butt in a hurry. Just about any Tank is either a draw - or certain types like Invul/NRG will take me out quickly (can't keep Invul away with Force Bubble).
In teams I do "decently" if no HOs or skilled Controllers are involved. Anything offensive with HOs and both my team and personal shields turn to paper. Just about any Controller can quickly make me a non-factor.
What it boils down to for me (other than the HO factor) is that the system is almost rigged to encourage ganging up on the Defender. Most Defenders are as almost as easy to mez or kill as Blasters, while as force multipliers they make far more important strategic targets. Combine "high priority target" with "little significant personal defence" and you just painted a big bullseye on your chest. Controllers would be in the same boat....save that they tend to have much better tools for defending themselves. Particularly after APPs. Mez protection by itself makes such a huge difference for high level Trollers in PvP its unreal.
It is rather decidedly un-nerving the degree to which Force Bubble is so much more useful in the Arena than in PvE. To the point that in PvE I don't use it much because it doesn't help me enough to be worth its cost. While in PvP I don't use it because its such a massively unfair advantage against many opponents that its practically an "I win" button....
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Raising the defender secondaries would lead to offenders outdamaging blasters. However, granting some kind of damage boos in force field and empathy's primary would help balance things out. Say they add a 10th power.
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This is the problem with defenders. Period. I asked states about this in a PM. Basically raising defender damage was out of the question, because they feel it will make blasters less needed....but the problem is this is exactly what is happening to Defenders from a Controller point of view.
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But also keep in mind that the Defender would have to apply much more End than the Blaster to simply even the score, much less outdamage them. I've never been a numbers person, but both Tar Patch and Freezing Rain use up a goodly chunk of End, and that added with the attacks that give less bang for the End comes in at a nice sum. Not to mention that in the time the Defender fires off Freezing Rain, the Blaster gets to chain one more attack, probably evening them out.
Wait, I just did the math. Unless I'm mistaken (see above, not a numbers guy), FR and TP add around 30% to the base damage of an attack.
Blaster Attack X = 100
Defender Attack X = 66
*Defender Debuff Y = 1.3
= 66*1.3 = 88
If Defender Secondaries got bumped to 75% of Blaster Primaries, it would look like this:
Blaster Attack X = 100
Defender Attack X = 75
*Defender Debuff Y = 1.3
= 75*1.3 = 100
That's two powers for the Defender to achieve the same the Blaster is achieving with one use of the power. Never mind that the Blaster has access to Build Up and that if they're on the same team, the Blaster also gets the benefit of the *1.3 Debuff bonus putting him at 130 vs. the Defender's 100.
If Defender Secondaries got bumped to 80% (both 75% and 80% have been floated here as the comparative level of other Secondaries, no idea which one is more correct) then the Defender could achieve a rough 107 end result -- with a combination of two powers. That alone makes the example as flawed as the one where the guy compared FF on a Defender vs. FF + Invis on a Controller.
While I obviously have a different favourite resolution to the whole issue, this course of action does not seem as catastrophic as it is being made out to be. Sorry.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Thanks for the reassurance, Statesman. I'm very happy with my Dark/Radiation defender! I KNOW that he's benefitting his team-mates a lot. If I had one criticism, though, it's that my teammates might not KNOW how much they're being benefitted untill he's off their team. Although I like the subtle nature of the dark miasma powerset, more obvious animations or indicators of buffage/debuffage would help others know that I'm not just sitting there.
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I just don't personally get much out of PvP. I like cooperative play over competitive anyway, and there's no tangible reward to Arena victories, so PvP is just lost time where I could be leveling one of my characters...
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In my entire time I have seen more cooperative play in PVP than in PVE. A team without tactics will always suffer. Every match I enter always starts with "What's the plan" Using AT strengths, picking up for others weakness, using terrain etc. is much more involed than in PVE. I guess mowing down mindless PVE mobs for well over 100 levels gets a little old to me. PVP really saved a game I really enjoy for me. If all I could do is Hami. raid with Hobo I would be bummed. All the time I have spent with him would be lost.
I suppose if I had not run every task force 2 or more times and gone through the 1-50 almost twice now I would be more interested in PVE. Just does not offer the challange that PVP does.
Cheers!
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After all, Defenders are all about buffs (and debuffs). Every Archetype should be extremely happy when the Defender provides a resistance or defense buff...
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Jack, let me hit a nail on the head:
So long as ANY archetype can hit a resist or defense cap (or equivalent) on their
own, merely by their own power choices and slotting, you will never achieve this
goal.
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Congratulations, you did hit a nail on the head.
I don't know about your solutions, but you nail the problem brilliantly.