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FF/* Defender:
. Ins/Def+Dispersion = 43.75% Base DEF, 0% to Psychic
Ill/FF Controller
. Group Invis+Ins/Def+Dispersion = 42.5% DEF, 7.5% to Psychic
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Wow, that other power must come free to cotnrolelrs then? I didnt realize they got extra power slots, and you didnt get anything at the level that they magically aquired GI without spending a slot. Oh wait. You could ahve taken maneuvers or a blast or something. Nice try to slip one past the shortbus crowd though.
FF has problems. Its because half your powers suck. Fix that, and controllers cant do everything a FF can do thats worthwhile in 3 power selections.
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BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels.
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I personally have never had a problem finding teams when I got into the upper levels. I have only taken a Rad/Rad into the upper levels, and I more often then not got thanked and told what adifference I made to the team. These may have had more to do with my supergroup than anything, but I am extreamly happy with my defenders. My only complaint is not being able to take more powers!
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I personally have never had a problem finding teams when I got into the upper levels. I have only taken a Rad/Rad into the upper levels, and I more often then not got thanked and told what adifference I made to the team. These may have had more to do with my supergroup than anything, but I am extreamly happy with my defenders. My only complaint is not being able to take more powers!
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Reinforcing yet again the point that not all Defenders are created equal. The life of a 40 plus Rad Fender is vastly different from the life of a 40 plus FF Fender - for example. Your biggest complaint is not being able to take more powers. My biggest complaint is not having more powers worth taking...
A previous post indicated that if graphics were added which visibly showed the Defensive/Debuff powers at work that would increase the perception of the contribution of the Defender. This is a great idea and I think it would go a long way towards making Defenders perceive themselves as more important.
Additionally the feeling of "not being needed" has a lot to do with the fact that Players as a whole appear to realize that Controllers can do the job of a defender in the later levels. So they hear this and automatically think they do not need a Defender if they have a Controller.
Controllers need some balancing overall so they are not Bruce Banner from Lvl 1-31 and The Hulk from Lvl 32 - 50. Once they balance the Controller AT then the natural process of making Defenders more valuable would follow. Same thing for Tanks...if they couldn't "hold" as many foes with their Taunt (and then kill them with overpowered Damage powers as they can now) then Controllers would be needed for their "Controller" powers (not their damaging powers).
Taking it down to the basics....Each AT should be the single best AT at their titled job....Tankers should be able to Tank but not damage effectively. Controllers should be able to control but not defend effectively, Defenders should be able to defend but not damage effectively, Scrappers should be able to Damage but not Tank effectively and Blasters should be able to complain that they are the forgotten AT errr I mean they should be able to do Ranged Damage but not (well Im not really sure if their secondarys can be defined) but I guess as was intended they should be able to do ranged damage but not control effectively.
So all ATs should be the best at their primary but unable to match the effectiveness in the realm of what their secondary brings as compared to the AT with that primary.
So for this specific instance....If controllers can't defend like defenders...problem solved
i was thinking of something that could be given to defenders and not ctrls that would help out.
Critical Buffs and/or debuff removal.
Critial Buff, have a 5-10% chance of getting double values on your buff/debuff. not the biggest thing but it will help out in the same way crits helped scrappers.
Debuff removal, give every set a power with a good chance (75% or more) to remove a debuff from a target. So if that regen scrapper gets nailed with a -regen debuff you can remove it but a ctrl couldnt.
just throwing the ideas out there... what do you all think?
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Well, if it were auto-hit, and everyone who's standing near me when I start using the power gets the benefit of the heal, then, yes, it'd be unfair. However, it's very easy - and common - for people to run away during the three-second cast, which means I've just spent three seconds spending endurance and not accomplishing anything. Never mind, of course, the number of times that I've been defeated in the middle of the animation because I can't stop to do something else, like get away.
Of all the things one might point to in Dark Miasma as overpowered, Twilight Grasp is close to the bottom of my list. There's no need to reflexively insist that every aspect of the set is overpowered.
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TG's animation time got considerably sped up. AND it works on foes that die during its animation. If the kineticists target drops, they get no love. TG lowers damage, accuracy and regen. Having used both, TG is considerably easier, and considerably better IMO.
How much was the kinetics controller outhealing you by? Is your TG 6 slotted for heals? Couldnt have been much, given how massive TG's heal is.
Just a quick thought:
Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)
Defender damage = 66% blaster damage
Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?
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Basically, we've already committed to looking at several Archetypes and builds for I5 and afterwards, but I've said nary a word about Defenders. Why? Because of all the Archetypes, we're happiest with them. There are certainly issues with individual sets and powers - and those we're always looking at. Defenders, however, don't have any overarching problems.
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Really, I don't have that many problems with feeling useless, at least with my FF Defender. The temptation to ignore her usually goes away when I politely ask how often the green bar just doesn't move for an entire battle without her there.
(Yes, a Controller can do most of this. If he does, that's at least 15 slots he's not putting in his control powers. 20, if you factor in Maneuvers.)
That said - Defenders are supposed to have a moderate ability to do damage. Significantly less than a Blaster or even a Scrapper, but not something to sneeze at. The 66% base damage level cripples that pretty badly. Forget pet controllers - a decently slotted Spectral Wounds does more damage than some of my main attacks!
I don't think this is a problem with Controllers; most of them need more damage output pre-pets, not less, with Illusion the arguable exception (and the only faintly soloable Controller set right now). I know why the original nerf to Defender damage was made, and the reasoning was understandable. But after Blasters are fixed could bumping the base damage for Defenders back up to 75% be looked at?
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Just look at the entire FF set. PFF, Dispersion, Deflection, and Insulation operate at 80% for a Controller relative to a Defender.
Now look at everything else.... Force Bolt, Force Bubble, Repulsion Field, Repulsion Bomb, and Detention Field are *identical* for a Controller and a Defender. No meaningful differences whatsoever! Not only are these powers a highly situational bag of tricks - but the Controller can use them at *equal* effectiveness to the Defender. How's that for a fair trade-off?
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Star, if you makes you feel better, on my FF controller, with the exception of Detention Field I have only taken those powers that work at 80% effectiveness because I was more interested in my primary. I also have no intention of taking any of the others in upcoming slots when I have better EPP choices available.
On the other hand, that may not make you feel better, since it means the rest of the FF line is so lackluster I couldn't be bribed to take it with 100% efficiency. 
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The fact that there is so little bickering around FF needing a buff should speak volumes.
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I couldn't agree more.
If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck it probably *is* a duck.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
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You've stated my point exactly, though not the point I think you intended to make. Controllers aren't as good as defenders at defending. They're better.
There is absolutely, positively no better defense than completely incapacitating your enemies. Once I get the bad guys locked down and not attacking at all, what other defensive action can possibly improve on that?
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Wholly agreed, and even previously stated by me in this thread. 
I'm all for some AT cross-training of roles, but Defenders are too hybridized to possess a truly distinctive role.
The ATs were divided up for very wise reasons. However, it seems that the divisions of duties themselves were not adequate.
Note the repeated requests for the two melee ATs to be made into one AT. I'm pleasantly surprised that there hasn't been an equally big push to have Defenders & Controllers become one gestalt AT. Diversity is required!
In summation: Defender + Defender < Blaster + Controller, therefore sadness. 
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It's not mind-boggling at all. This is the natural consequence of so very many defenders choosing to totally neglect their secondary powerset. You simply cannot count on the average defender being able to do any damage whatsoever. Anecdotal case in point, I picked up two high-30s defenders off LFT last night and between the two of them they had seven slots in offense. Total. The potential for defenders to do damage is there, far more damage (and more intelligently directed) than any controller pet can hope to deal, but very rarely is that potential met.
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Actually, not only are Defender secondaries at 66% of Blaster's "base" damage, but we also generally get weaker attacks in *identical* builds.
If a Blaster gets a heavy damage attack, it is most likely a moderate damage attack in the Defender set. So Defenders are being doubly penalized so that we don't step on Blasters toes.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Star, if you makes you feel better, on my FF controller, I have only taken, with the exception of Detention Field, those powers that work at 80% effectiveness, because I was more interested in my primary. I also have no intention of taking any of the others in upcoming slots when I have better EPP choices available.
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What's sad is that even I as a Defender ended up investing far more slots in APPs and power pools than any of those "100% Controller Efficiency" powers. I took em all and tried em - but ended up cutting back in respec because they just didn't add anything to my capabilities. One or two of them can easily cover all the situations for which any of them might apply. Taking all five of them is completely pointless.
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On the other hand, that may not make you feel better, since it means the rest of the FF line is so lackluster I couldn't be bribed to take it with 100% efficiency.
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Heh. Yeah. I feel *so* much better that even at 100% efficiency you can't be bothered to even take half my powerset...
Pfltht. 
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I think part of the problem with defenders is everyone expects us to be only used for SUPPORT. On the flip side, you give defenders the ability to damage more and where does that leave the blaster?
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Got it in one.
Few people expect controllers to "just control, don't buff/debuff/heal"... at least, very few that I've teamed with in game... um... wait... none that I've teamed with in game.
Yet people often express that "in teams, don't blast, your AT's name is 'defender', not 'attacker'" on the boards. Go figure.
Mind you, it should be done judiciously. If the team is about to wipe... unless you can defender-nuke the enemy out of th way... yeah, maybe using a primary power will be a better choice. If the team's doing well... why not blast things? Fights will go faster.
Seems to me like for ANY good player, a very simple rule to remember is... do the most appropriate action at the appropriate time.
A heal is needed? Toss a heal. A debuff is needed? Use it. A buff is needed? Use it. An attack is needed or nothing else needs to be done? Use it.
In my SG play, attacking as a defender was NEVER controversial as long as I *also* did the buff/debuff/heal thing.
Funny how its different on the boards. Of course, that's at decently-high levels, too.
At 10, having a defender attack is often a bad choice, particularly with the need for healing at the low levels, plus, end management pre stamina is very different than post-stamina. At 35... NOT having the defender attack (if I'm the player in question)... seems silly and a meaningless restriction on what is supposed to be a fun activity... as long as the defender is also "doing their job" of using their primary when needed or appropriate.
Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.
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To the issue of a defender not being needed at the high levels thats total BS. I don't know who you guys are but I can't logg into the game and solo without getting a ton of tells asking if I was up for some missions.
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I got five blind invites & tell requests to team last night. Averaged out to about one an hour, but I was also on teams and out of my level range zones for quite a bit last night. If you count only the time I wasn't teamed and was in a zone of my own level, the requests average out to much, much faster than that.
I also spent part of last night teaching our fire/kin controller about -regen and what it can do for her. Many controllers understand their secondaries as well as defenders understand their primaries, as Dollhouse mentioned, but not all of them. Defenders may find that while their controller capabilities are effectively numerically equivalent, the attention paid to them is not.
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Actually, not only are Defender secondaries at 66% of Blaster's "base" damage, but we also generally get weaker attacks in *identical* builds.
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Brawl Indices between the two ATs are consistent.
Under construction
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First of all tankers shouldn't be able to herd that many mobs in the first place. There should be a limit. Say surrounded by more than 20 mobs....bam... your armor drops. Dead tanker, Dead team... problem solved. UNLESS he has a defender there to pull his bacon out of the fire. But why penalize EVERYONE because of an often exploited game mechanic? My scrapper dosen't herd.... so why should I Lose the one AoE I have?
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A real solution for herding: Make villains unwilling to travel more than a certain distance from their spawn points. It'd have to be fairly short, but it could be done.
My DM/DA would be crippled without her AoEs... Dark Consumption, Soul Drain, Dark Regeneration, Oppressive Gloom, Cloak of Fear...Okay, Shadow Maul's not a huge deal and Energy Torrent is more a bonus than anything else.
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It would be exploited by people knowing that a mob won't follow very far. I'm more in the camp of "get too many mobs on you, you die".
Still here, even after all this time!
Thank you for popping into our forum Statesman.
My thoughts on defenders is the same as many of my fellows, we're simply overshadowed by our controller allies at the highest levels. Up until level 40 or so, controllers generally cannot slot their secondaries to the same level as a defender can their primary. Post 40 however, the percentage difference is simply not noticable. As a FF defender I was often asked by my own SG to bring my late 20's scrapper or early 30's fire tank to our 40+ missions as we had a Ill/FF controller who was good at his job and made my bubbler fairly redundant.
To make matters worse is the damage. I admit I feel it most as a FF defender as I have no way to increase damage but while I felt that my damage was adequete at the time, defender damage does not seem to me to offset the damage of pets plus the power of control. On the other hand, a defender can always damage where a controller cannot always control.
I've finally reached 38 with my Earth/Kin controller and I much prefer to play him than a 45 Kin/Dark I have. The reason is mostly mezzes. I can deal with mezzers with my controller and not with a defender. And with APP's I can pretty much ignore mezzers with my controller. A defender is pretty much helpless in the face of a mezzer, even a bubbler as so many holds are sleeps when used by a mob.
I do think that most likely mathematically and for most general game play that before that final 10-15 levels a defender is fairly balanced to a controller overall. It's likely mostly a perception issue with the player base because as was previously stated, many defender abilities don't have a obvious effect. Post 40, there would be very few reasons to be a certain flavours of defender over their controller brethern. FF more than any, although Storm and Kinetics seem very well matched to controllers as well, and it could be argured that in the late game a /emp is easily as good a emp/.
About the only fix I can see is to break the bond between controller and defender. Make it so that even if the powersets are shared they could do more for the defender than pure percent differences.
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Just a quick thought:
Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)
Defender damage = 66% blaster damage
Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?
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Enervating field, freezing rain, and now tar patch.
Raising the defender secondaries would lead to offenders outdamaging blasters. However, granting some kind of damage boos in force field and empathy's primary would help balance things out. Say they add a 10th power.
Empathy could get a sort of reverse absorb pain, where mobs took damage every time they attacked due to experiencing their targets pain.
Force field could get a team damage buff that added a force component to attacks, granting extra smash damage and knockdown.
Bringing those 2 sets up to the others in offense wouldnt require an across the board damage upgrade necessarily.
I'm going to add my $.02 to the ever growing pot.
I currently have a lvl 48 Inv/Eng tank. I regularly get teams of 7-8 people for doing missions. I really enjoy having defenders along with me. Kinetics, Rad, Dark, Empath, Storm, FF - doesn't matter. Each one of them helps me out in one way or another. Even FF helps me when I'm collecting up groups. I guess Storm helps my tank the least, but I also play a Storm defender, and they help the ranged folks much more. So what I'm saying is that I'm always happy to have a defender or two along in my groups. I admit I can do my job without them, but having END rec, extra damage, heals, bubbles and so forth always makes my job easier.
I think the problem is that the controllers do the job just as well. At the 40+ levels I get just as much benefit from a controller's secondaries as I do from a defender's primaries that it doesn't matter to me which I get. I don't think nerfing the controller secondary is the right approach, either, because in order for anyone to notice a difference late in the game they'd end up being useless early and next-to-useless late.
I also think nerfing tanks (or other archetypes) is not the answer. If in an 8 person mission I can't jump into a group of 15 +3 enemies, with 2 bosses, 3-4 LT's and the rest minions and survive the alpha strike, then I can't do my job as a tank. I'll be face planted before the defender could heal me (if they have a heal). The defender can't lead with their debuffs, either, because then they'll get the alpha strike, end up face planted and unable to help the others. Only a FF defender could help me survive the alpha strike, and I don't want to need a FF player for every big mission.
Perhaps if defenders provided some special function that no one else can do. For example, tanks have aggro control. Scrappers have crits and damage. Blasters do the most damage. Controllers have pets and lockdown. Defenders are a mix of blaster and controller secondaries. Only Dark and the rad & psi secondaries are different. Sonic and Trick Arrows will help add differentiation.
Defenders need to have something that sets them apart. Right now they're lacking something special, except for the specific defender-only powersets. Bringing other sets "down" to the defender level will impair their ability to perform too much that they will be less fun to play.
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Raising the defender secondaries would lead to offenders outdamaging blasters. However, granting some kind of damage boos in force field and empathy's primary would help balance things out. Say they add a 10th power.
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This is the problem with defenders. Period. I asked states about this in a PM. Basically raising defender damage was out of the question, because they feel it will make blasters less needed....but the problem is this is exactly what is happening to Defenders from a Controller point of view.
My solution. 1) Either give defender self-defense powers...Or 2) give blasters self-defense powers and raise defender damage.
Really liked your post:
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Controllers are superior to Defenders at providing team defense.
The problem is that defenders must often take numerous powers to provide adequate defense.
A controller often only need one, some form of lockdown. To add that the controller gets secondary team defense in defender secondaries.
A controller can one shot hold a minion/lieut, and with two quick recharging holds can remove a boss from a fight. Defenders cannot compare in this regard.
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I don't see this as "wrong". Controllers have two sets dedicated to defense, and should be betterprotectors. But you nailed the problem in that, combined with the shared sets, it leaves Defender's role very blurred. Too blurred.
I think your solution has potential.
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The best solution is to tamper with Controller secondaries, making them more offensive, and less defensive.
The result is that controllers are not as good at healing/buffing/debuffing, but are more offensive, this will increase the value of defender buffs.
This increases contorller soloability at lower levels, and increases defender importance across the board.
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The issue is that if you look at the two sets that are bufferiffic (FF and EMP) lots of defenders don't want all their defenders to be like that. So there is a potential to overcorrect in that direction. But I think some differentiation between controllers and defenders on the shared sets is needed. Controllers need low level damage and if you chose which powers to trade-out wisely you could make Defenders more distinct.
I also think a problem lies in the secondaries. People should want Defenders using both sets, but instead people want Defenders to "save their end" for their primary.
So I don't see the issues as simply set-based. Some issues are AT-wide, IMO.
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Some one PM'ed me about this issue - and I've talked about Defenders a bit at conventions - so I thought I'd at least post something on them.
Basically, we've already committed to looking at several Archetypes and builds for I5 and afterwards, but I've said nary a word about Defenders. Why? Because of all the Archetypes, we're happiest with them. There are certainly issues with individual sets and powers - and those we're always looking at. Defenders, however, don't have any overarching problems.
BUT....I'm extremely concerned about the perception that Defenders "aren't needed" and thus "can't find a team" at high levels. Defenders should fill a valuable role at ALL levels and help Archetypes achieve levels that they can't reach by themselves. After all, Defenders are all about buffs (and debuffs). Every Archetype should be extremely happy when the Defender provides a resistance or defense buff...
Anyway, just wanted to post our view on Defenders right now.
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Just speaking from a bubblers viewpoint, while I do allow other Archetypes to achieve levels they can't on their own, I
myself am unequipped to go along with them. With maxed out bubbles only, I can grant someone close to a 96% DEF but myself only about 40%. So while they are off happily taking on AV's, +4 and up villians, I'm still struggling with even level villians. This creates a imbalance, IMO, with the team dynamics because it then forces one of two situations. Either the team has to spend more time keeping me safe (Assumming I'm not one shotted, blasted by a AOE or killed before the villian can be pulled off of me), thus slowing down the rate at which the team can move through mobs and thus earn xp, or they ignore me for the most part and I spend alot of time makeing trips back and forth from the hospital. I suppose I could just stand there and just bubble while doing my best not to draw any sort of aggro, thus reducing me to nothing more then a buff bot like a sky raider shield generator or a DE emmantor. But since when is playing shield generator or emmantor fun?
It's also not very practical to do since I either need to be up with the Tankers and Scrappers giving them the extra protection they need or if I'm back protecting the blasters and controllers opening myself up to AOE attacks against them. Plus just what am I suppose to do when the AV or +4 villian comes charging towards the blaster I'm protecting. Simply sit there and watch?
In terms of not being needed, while I'm sure alot of it is just perception, let me give you an example of how that perception can happen. Running a mission the other day against an AV, Envoy of shadows, with a team of heroes. Things are going well, I'm bubbling and draining (elec Secondary) and the team is crusing through the mobs of COT. Get to the room with the AV and run into a bit of trouble. There's a bunch of Earth Thorn Casters along with the Envoy and suddenly everyone got's 6 or more quicksands stacked on them. Everybody slows to a crawl and between the AV and the Earth Thorn Casters myself and the blaster go down. With no way to be revived I go to the hospital and race as fast I can back to the battle, figuring the teams going to need my DEF buffing to see them through the fight. So I get back to the cavern where the battle is taking place and what do I find? All the Earth thorn casters gone and the AV nearly defeated.
My immediate thought upon seeing that, "Oh. I guess they didn't need me after all."
Now I realize this is a somewhat skewed perception and that I did contribute to the fight, but its hard not to think that when you see things like this. In the big fight everybody wants to have something to cheer about, whether its the tanker saying "Did you see how I went toe to toe with that AV and he didn't even scratch me" or the scrapper "Man you should have seen how his hps dropped after my critical." or the blaster "Well you wouldn't have even got close to him if my AOE hadn't cleared out the room" or the controller "Not to mention that It's alot easier to hit something that's held in place" or the defender "Never mind that my buffs and debuffs turned you all uber".
However I think for some defenders, not all mind you, in the big fights or even some of the little fights they fell like all they have to say is "Well... I... face planted alot sparing you all from debt." or "I stood around and looked menacingly while you guys cleared the room.". After a few times of this its pretty easy to feel un-needed or useless. An while this is in no means unique to defenders, since I'm sure there are builds within each Archtype that have the same issue, I think defenders suffer more from this in the latter levels then others do. At least, that's the viewpoint from this bubbler.
Synergy Lvl 50 Def FF/Electric/Psy - Protector
Cimarron - Protector Mascot
My DA Page
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Actually, not only are Defender secondaries at 66% of Blaster's "base" damage, but we also generally get weaker attacks in *identical* builds.
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Brawl Indices between the two ATs are consistent.
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I notice you snipped the part that shows a Defender doing one grade of damage less than Blasters.
And I hate Brawl index, as that doesn't really mean a lot to me directly.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Honestly, controllers are a defense/defense build. They should, by design, protect a team better than a defender. It's unfortunate that defenders fixate on their AT name and ignore damage dealing.
I'm for boosting defender secondaries myself. Reduce END drain and increase base damage. Doesn't look like this is happening though. The new defender sets look very "controller-ish", much like dark/
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I have an Empathy/Energy Defender
I ignored my secondaries for a while and it bit hardcore. After I respecd my secondaries back to six slotted attacks I'm haveing alot of fun with my defender. To the issue of a defender not being needed at the high levels thats total BS. I don't know who you guys are but I can't logg into the game and solo without getting a ton of tells asking if I was up for some missions. If I wanted to solo I had to /hide and /ghide just to get some peace and quiet. I found that I just needed to balance out what powers I picked and didn't pick one shot powers that I would waste slots on. Nova is one of them. Emp defenders are not at a loss of a job. Bubbles get love too. The game is a challenge with a defender and what I like to do now is exemp down with mine to play with my friends and their alts. Its like having a healing blaster again.
Tanks still need defenders, I don't know what you guys have seen. Some of the many tells and invites I get are from a tank that needs a healer to follow them around.
Supremacy Captain
Pinnacle Server
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