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After all, Defenders are all about buffs (and debuffs). Every Archetype should be extremely happy when the Defender provides a resistance or defense buff...
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Jack, let me hit a nail on the head:
So long as ANY archetype can hit a resist or defense cap (or equivalent) on their
own, merely by their own power choices and slotting, you will never achieve this
goal.
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Congratulations, you did hit a nail on the head.
I don't know about your solutions, but you nail the problem brilliantly.
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Maybe defenders are your key to exceding the caps?
If having a defender on the team adds 20% to def, res, and dmg caps for the whole team and the defender has powers that can help get you to that new cap. That would seem to be very helpful at high levels where builds are capping-out.
In conjunction, I think that all Def primaries should be able to boost damage in some way, be it a buff or -res debuff.
These changes would allow defenders to be loved for making the game go faster, even at high levels.
Sounds like 1v1 to me Click. I had a 1v1 against a Kin/Electric defender last night, in the match before he destroyed my Fire/Fire tank so I logged on to Hobo for a rematch. Before the match I stocked up on Endurance inspirations and some break frees. I knew he could suck my end. and the imbolization he has is brutal, especially when mixed with the stun of his total focus. I also grabed some stun grenades to help me out if needed. Knowing he was Kin. and needed me to be close I tried to stay out of melee range.
I went Invis., super speed in and total focused him for a stun, then spamed my immbolize and backed up to stay out of melee. I followed with running and jumping over him and hitting Tentacles and then hitting from distance. If I had remebered that I bought a jet pack I would have used that and fired from a distance. Was a tough battle, I struggled to get back my endurance from his end drain. I ended up winning 6 to 1, but it took a lot of planning and tactics for me to come out on top in that match. Of course if I came in unprepared, he would have knocked me around. PVP is anything but spamming attacks, especially in teams.
I have only been in two 1v1, but near 100 team matches. It is unranked team matches or nothing. 1v1 will never be balanced. Team PVP is where it is at. 
I would encourage everyone to give it a try in a 8v8 match. Very fun indeed. Practice makes perfect.
Cheers!
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Just a quick thought:
Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)
Defender damage = 66% blaster damage
Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?
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Because at the end of Beta, Blasters got a damage boost and a Endurance decrease.
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It does warm the heart to see some defenders in the arena other than myself....I have only seen one bubble defender. Bayne. In our large Virtue vs Liberty match last weekend and he seemd to do ok as well.
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In the Virtue vs. Liberty match there were 2 Force Field Defenders: Bayne and Savant. I chatted with Savant during the event about our builds. We have different slotting approaches for things like Force Bubble and the APP powers.
Bayne does OK in PvP because I did an analysis of what was and what was not working with my original PvE build. I found I had to alter several things from my extremely effective PvE build in order to have a suitable PvP build. Not everyone is going to do that kind of analysis, nor should they have to. Even after the respec for PvP I find my build is hampered by the extremes of the to-hit code. My defense buffs can be trumped by all of the To-Hit buff powers even if they have minimal slotting in the power.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
What is still broken with defenders in general?
For all of them, the lack of mez resistance and the low-base HP. When I die, it's ALWAYS because of a mez or chain of mezzes.
Many times, I die and it begins the chain of the rest of my team getting wiped out. Defenders should NOT be the weak point in the team. It is happening WAY too often at higher levels(36+). We need some survivability.
Some primaries still have problems as well:
Storm: drop the dmg/fear stuff from freezing rain and the set is pretty good.
FF: Currently the one that needs the most help. One of the last three powers should be modified to help boost team damage.
Dark: Finally good. No changes(even though Black Hole seems useless)
Rad: A couple lesser powers still, but very strong as is.
Kinetics: Need to consider speed boost and or increase density as AOE powers. This would reduce all the buff spamming required and would help your build.
Empathy: Not sure, never played it. Seems pretty good as is.
I also agree with some posters that you should modify the controller secondary to make it less buff/debuff centric and make it do some damage instead. This would create that differentiation we need.
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Just a quick thought:
Scrapper defense =~ 80% Tanker Def.
Tanker def. =~ 80% Scrapper offense
Controller secondary =~ 80% Defender (ignoring the fact that in many instances is really 100%)
Defender damage = 66% blaster damage
Why do defenders get so much less benefit from thier secondary than all the other ATs?
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Enervating field, freezing rain, and now tar patch.
Raising the defender secondaries would lead to offenders outdamaging blasters.
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Increasingly I'm seeing that as sham reasoning. Its not as if Fire Controllers, Fire Tankers, and Spines Scrappers don't exist and can't mow things down far faster and at higher rates of damage than a Blaster. One wonders why it was so critical to keep Defenders down, especially when if you factor in setup for the Defender (have to use Tar Patch, Enervating Field, or Freezing Rain) and the limitations involved (only having Aim at best) it is not clear how much of a lead if any those Defenders would have.
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I just said it was a reason, not that I agreed 100% with it. Blasters right now are screwed up mid to late game imo. Perhaps after they are buffed post I5 there will be another look at defender's damage. But given how all blasters have going for them is damage, you'll be hard pressed to convince them to allow a defender to exceed it, even with a setup. I dont think they'll just say "well, fire tanks out damage us, why not defenders too". Maybe they would lol, I dunno. Blasters are gluttons for punishment.
The issue isnt just meeting/exceeding damage, its doing so with the extra protection sets like dark or rad give.
Given how States is "looking into" many AT's, I dont think fire tankers and controllers will be performing quite the same post I5. I could be wrong though.
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It does warm the heart to see some defenders in the arena other than myself....I have only seen one bubble defender. Bayne. In our large Virtue vs Liberty match last weekend and he seemd to do ok as well.
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In the Virtue vs. Liberty match there were 2 Force Field Defenders: Bayne and Savant. I chatted with Savant during the event about our builds. We have different slotting approaches for things like Force Bubble and the APP powers.
Bayne does OK in PvP because I did an analysis of what was and what was not working with my original PvE build. I found I had to alter several things from my extremely effective PvE build in order to have a suitable PvP build. Not everyone is going to do that kind of analysis, nor should they have to. Even after the respec for PvP I find my build is hampered by the extremes of the to-hit code. My defense buffs can be trumped by all of the To-Hit buff powers even if they have minimal slotting in the power.
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I agree Bayne. There does need to be something done for +def and -acc sets.
I can't believe I totally forgot Savant also. to many people. Like you Bayne I totally respeced my build for PVP. Which I have said before not everyone, nor should everyone have to do that to be viable and productive.
Cheers!
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Why is Dark so good? Because it's like a Controller
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I have to say this is true. I usually play controllers, but I've taken to dark/dark like a fish to water because it's more controller-like than my grav/kin. That is not to say that this is a bad thing; on the contrary, it's why I think my dark/dark is so much fun to play, so I hope they don't change it.
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/agreed
My high-level 4D is in an interesting situation on her usual SG-based team: she's role-reversed with the Controller (mc/emp). The controller is the "healer" (and is very good at it). Spookie is the "lockdown and debuff" specialist. Not that they don't cross over. The Controller's primary set also has terrific lockdown capabilities and Spookie's (and Fluffy's) heals often give the Controller more opportunity to use those powers. But for the most part, they tend to do "each other's job." 
Dark/dark/dark defenders = honorary Controllers! 
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I respectfully disagree. a Dark/* Defender should NOT be played like a controller. It should be played as an accuracy and damage debuffer. When I have 3 pets out, I can debuff damage on a single target by 95%. Can a Controller do this? The answer is no.
Just because you have Fearsome Stare doesn't mean you should play like a controller. Stick to what you're AT is for: ie buff/debuff/blasting. If a defender was playing like that on my team, they'd be kicked off.
As has been stated, making sweeping generalizations about Defenders is generally counterproductive. The differences in the sets are too great. Some thoughts, and combinations of what I think are good ideas.
1. Fix blasters.
2. Increase base defender damage.
3. A small buff to defender Mez resistance.
4. Help FF.. Make some of their powers more desireable, and give them better defenses.
5. I'm not quite sure I get the reasoning on not allowing defenders to use single self buffs.. If it is a concern about being overpowering, allow them to self-buff at a reduced amount.
6. Here's one I'm toying with... Allow defender buffs (and defender only) to enable other heroes to go past attribute caps, possibly to a second "Defender buff" cap. Not sure about this one, it could allow some overpowered builds to be extraordinarily overpowered.
7. More minions with attacks that debuff as well. Small, short term debuffs, as in Defender secondaries. Will stack nastily in herd, make things tougher in large groups, and still allow soloing.
8. PvP fixes.. I don't know... I can understand the idea behind suppression, but the Superspeeding scrapper can still zip up to me and apply a headsplitter before I can get RI on him. Amusingly enough, if I survive the hit, and start to apply it, by the time it does go up, his supression is over, and he's gone, power drops, and that's it. I'm not sure of a solution there.
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I respectfully disagree. a Dark/* Defender should NOT be played like a controller. It should be played as an accuracy and damage debuffer. When I have 3 pets out, I can debuff damage on a single target by 95%. Can a Controller do this? The answer is no.
Just because you have Fearsome Stare doesn't mean you should play like a controller. Stick to what you're AT is for: ie buff/debuff/blasting. If a defender was playing like that on my team, they'd be kicked off.
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You are right, but only partly. A Dark Defender should be played as a aggresively defenisve debuffer/buffer with control.
Dark's are very flexible, if slotted correctly. You can just boost damage and attack (mini-blaster), minor control and debuffing (when there are no controllers) and healing/debuffing support (no other defenders.)
Some groups I've done all three in just three missions, depending on who we lost/gained.
Still here, even after all this time!
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If no defenders use the arena, and there is no data being pulled how do people expect it to ever work out?
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I gave them plenty of time during Test. They put it live in a state that I didn't find usable. So I don't use it.
Under construction
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I respectfully disagree. a Dark/* Defender should NOT be played like a controller. It should be played as an accuracy and damage debuffer. When I have 3 pets out, I can debuff damage on a single target by 95%. Can a Controller do this? The answer is no.
Just because you have Fearsome Stare doesn't mean you should play like a controller. Stick to what you're AT is for: ie buff/debuff/blasting. If a defender was playing like that on my team, they'd be kicked off.
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I have always thought playing with the mentality of this AT does X and that AT does Y and never the twain shall meet is unnecessarily limiting. A dark/dark defender has available to him a single target hold, an AoE fear, an AoE immobilize, an AoE disorient, and pets which can cast crowd control as well. EDIT: AND an AoE Slow.
Do you realize that's a better array of crowd control options than some of the official controller sets get?
Some folks are blind to the obvious, Dark defeneders can control with the best of them.
I have problems just planning one out let alone playing one, what do I slot up, debuffs/blasts/control??
Imo they should merge the Defender/Blaster like they're doing in CoV. That way the secondaries to Blaster/Controller makes up for the loss of Defender while the added Blaster damage and Controller control gives the former Defenders the ability to actually solo at a reasonable pace and be able to get invites in the later game. Stop being so set in your ways and look for an actual solution to the problem instead of dragging it out please.
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I have always thought playing with the mentality of this AT does X and that AT does Y and never the twain shall meet is unnecessarily limiting. A dark/dark defender has available to him a single target hold, an AoE fear, an AoE immobilize, an AoE disorient, and pets which can cast crowd control as well. EDIT: AND an AoE Slow.
Do you realize that's a better array of crowd control options than some of the official controller sets get?
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I give up, which one is the AoE Immobilize? It's not Tar Patch, if that's what you're thinking.
It would be silly to say that I don't do any minor controlling. With the way Fear works it necessarily happens. I just think it's a silly idea to try and work outside your AT when you do not have the tools to do so.
Mark that he's talking about Dark/Dark.
The AOE Immobilize would be Tenebrous Tentacles from Dark Blast. One of the niftiest powers in all of the Defender Secondaries IMO.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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With the way Fear works it necessarily happens. I just think it's a silly idea to try and work outside your AT when you do not have the tools to do so.
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"Not have the tools". Heh. OK. You go on thinking that.
And, yeah, Tenebrous Tentacles is the AoE Immobilize to which I was referring.
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I respectfully disagree. a Dark/* Defender should NOT be played like a controller. It should be played as an accuracy and damage debuffer. When I have 3 pets out, I can debuff damage on a single target by 95%. Can a Controller do this? The answer is no.
Just because you have Fearsome Stare doesn't mean you should play like a controller. Stick to what you're AT is for: ie buff/debuff/blasting. If a defender was playing like that on my team, they'd be kicked off.
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A controller can debuff damage on a large group of targets by 100% (held enemies get no attacks!). Can most defenders do this? The answer is no - though rads get EM Pulse.
If a defender was playing like that on my team - preventing us from taking any damage whatsoever - they'd get invited back 
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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You know, I don't really think pets are as much the problem. It's that the controller secondaries are almost as powerful as defender primaries once they have access to all the powers.
The largest benefit a defender has is that they get the powers earlier, but come level 40, a controller has all the same powers, fully slotted if they want, and almost as effective. There is a difference but it's just not enough to make a large difference most of the time.
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The only problem I have with this statement is that we focus on one AT and compare it to another and make statements like this. When the truth is that at high level all AT's start to overlap and or prove they can do anothers job almost as good or better then the other. Point in case, with a good high level scrapper you don't always need a tank. With a good high level tank, you don't always need a controller. Wtih a good high level controller, you don't always need a Defender. With a good high level Defender, you don't always need a Blaster. The point being that at high level, Each AT brings to the table something that the others do just maybe not quite so good. The devs can't look at the 40+ game only when making choices.. nor the 32+ game for controllers with pets... nor the 15+ game. They have to look at everything. Early on all AT's differ, but high levels we are all the same to some degree. Not much they can or should do about that.
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Jack, unless people see a *visible* sign that you are helping, they don't realize the Defenders benefit.
As a high level defender, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I can do, but it's basically invisible to most people. They see a blob of green or black and don't relate that to the archvillian not hurting the entire team.
Unless you can turn on exactly what a lot of defenders do into some sort of visible phenomonia, your average player may not really understand.
I'd really like an option that would put a visible "blocked" or "$damage reduced" on peoples screens in a unique color. Then they'll realize that the defender *are* doing their job, even when the green numbers aren't flying above their heads.
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Amen to this! This might be a way to help with the perception problem!
First: no At should be needed, all ATs should be wanted.
I believe that with the exception of storm, the whole "high level defenders are not wanted" problem is totally a function of perception.
As to the preference of teams for controllers over defenders, I think that is also a perception problem, mostly on the part of some ignorant team members. We are significantly better than a controller employing our primary as their secondary and good teams know this! People who have defender and controller alts know this, others just havent learned it yet.
Remember people controllers suffer from this type of problem quite a bit too:
"Man, we're wasting our 8th spot on a controller?!?" is a fairly common sentiment I've run into on Infinity, though this did taper off around 32 (I wonder why).
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You know, I don't really think pets are as much the problem. It's that the controller secondaries are almost as powerful as defender primaries once they have access to all the powers.
The largest benefit a defender has is that they get the powers earlier, but come level 40, a controller has all the same powers, fully slotted if they want, and almost as effective. There is a difference but it's just not enough to make a large difference most of the time.
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The only problem I have with this statement is that we focus on one AT and compare it to another and make statements like this. When the truth is that at high level all AT's start to overlap and or prove they can do anothers job almost as good or better then the other. Point in case, with a good high level scrapper you don't always need a tank. With a good high level tank, you don't always need a controller. Wtih a good high level controller, you don't always need a Defender. With a good high level Defender, you don't always need a Blaster. The point being that at high level, Each AT brings to the table something that the others do just maybe not quite so good. The devs can't look at the 40+ game only when making choices.. nor the 32+ game for controllers with pets... nor the 15+ game. They have to look at everything. Early on all AT's differ, but high levels we are all the same to some degree. Not much they can or should do about that.
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/em applause
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With a good high level Defender, you don't always need a Blaster.
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You have to be getting your damage from somewhere, and not all Defenders can substitute for a Blaster by any means. Maybe I'm weird but I would never pull a Defender onto a team if I were looking for a damage dealer, I'd get a Blaster or Scrapper. Or even a Controller depending on the levels we're talking about.
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While I obviously have a different favourite resolution to the whole issue, this course of action does not seem as catastrophic as it is being made out to be. Sorry.
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I'm just reporting what I was told. Point of the matter is even with the debuffs, defenders can not reach the damage cap unless they have assistance (Fulcrum shift, AM, Fort, etc). Only blasters with buildup and Aim can hit the damage cap. Then there are HOs to consider, which really do nothing but screw up balance in the first place.
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Yes, Defenders get the Dark Primary and the Dark, Rad and Psi Blast sets exclusively. But in overall function, both their Primary and Secondary are direct extrapolations of other sets in the game. Controllers and Blasters share a set list with Defenders and Tankers share one with Scrappers, but only Defenders share both set lists, making them -obviously- easier to replace on a team, even if a Controller's effects will be slightly weaker and they won't have Dark.
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This oversimplifies it.
Yes Defender Primary (buffs/debuffs) are also available as Controller Secondaries. Same with Defender Secondaries being available in Blaster Primaries. But, looking at the powersets of a group, that could be said of most ATs.... Blasters share ranged with Defenders, and meelee with Tankers and Scrappers. Tankers and Scrappers are just recversals of each otehr primary/secondary wise. The ONLY AT to get a set of powersets entirely unique in function is Controllers with their primaries. And even Dark Defenders get pets and mezzes can be found in many other powersets other than Controllers.
Nobody wants to "need" a Defender, any more than we want to "need" a Scrapper, or a Controller, etc...
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Just does not offer the challange that PVP does.
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I haven't really got that much challenge out of it. The ones I've been in and seen have boiled down to spamming some attack set the other guy's AT can't counter over and over again.