Flux_Vector
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Posts
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Joined
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I also strongly prefer the 'no symbol' option.
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I will almost regret when this is fixed. I actually spent a whole afternoon building and placing as many of the defense items as I could, just to finally see them in action after 7 years of playing (since I never managed to get into a base raid back in the day).
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Quote:Resist-centric survivability - especially without high, broad-spectrucm debuff resistance (-def, -rech, -end/recovery at least) - just isn't very impressive. A def softcapped character can handle much more in practice than a res-hardcapped character, other things being equal. And a def softcapped character with aid self and no mitigation out of their primary will survive circles around a res-hardcapped PB, even though the PB has better selfhealing, pulsar, and a dull pain type power.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Is it not possible to reach 85% resistance to all damage but Psionics at all times with the new Light Form? I thought I mentioned the psi exception. -
Yes, again, to be completely blunt I'm not saying to "only consider +4x8 tier balance."
I'm saying, "Do not only consider the +0x1 tier. Consider all the tiers, from +0x1 through +4x8."
My emphasis on why the top tier needs to be added to the consideration is because of the way some posters try to deny that it should be considered at all. It's where the disagreement is. Nobody really disagrees that ATs should be playable at low difficulties, that's like disagreeing that babies shouldn't be fed to dingos. You can do it, but any reasonable person will dismiss you as a dangerous nut.
It's also likely (though not guaranteed) that a character capable of doing well with IOs in high tier play will be able to do well on SOs in low tier play, too. But doing well on SOs at the low end isn't as reliable a gauge of something growing enough with IOs at the high end, I've found (a decent example of this being the Willpower set, especially prior to the +defense set bonus changes). -
Quote:I didn't say every set should be top tier. All I've specifically advocated for Peacebringers is for them to be made mediocre. And I've even said outright that I think this set of changes probably accomplishes what I've wanted for PBs (yes, they really had that far to go, and yes, primarily res-based survivability has been deprecated because of the numerous buffs given to and secondary benefits derived from defense-based mitigation as opposed to resist-based mitigation for characters who haven't got debuff resistances).Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Flux, every set cannot be in the top tier, and it wouldn't be a good thing if they were. Sets should be allowed to be different for flavor and to be interesting, and no matter what, there are going to be powersets that are seen as middle of the road or more powerful. Case in point, Energy is weaker than Fire in the Blast sets, but it also offers more mitigation and has a distinctly different playstyle. That's not a bad thing, or a good thing.
In fact, all your reasoning smacks of how people talk down about Dual Pistols for Blasters. The set does have the issue that all the damage types buy Fire and Standard aren't all that helpful for Blasters, but otherwise, it's middle of the road for damage. The numbers SHOW IT, but to hear people talk, you would think you were shooting spitwads at enemies. I have a Dual Pistols Blaster and had to point out how wrong that impression was many, many times.
But my response to Smiling_Joe was that if he wants PBs to have a truly balanced 'tri form' option, then I think we need new ideas beyond 'make nova do more damage' and 'make dwarf tougher' because 'doing damage' and 'being tough' are also the function of the vast majority of the human form's powers too. If the forms (especially nova form) are good enough to want to use under the current model, then the human form's not nearly as useful in comparison. Notably, if nova did that much more damage with the current changes on beta, why would you ever leave it except to reactivate clickbuffs like essence boost, hasten, and light form? I probably wouldn't even bother reactivating the buildup except when I had something else to click before I shifted back, in fact.
Heck as it stands where human and nova are doing 'comparable' damage, I can see a strong argument for being a nova-centric PB since you do serious damage at long range and with flight. Throw in essence boost and being res capped and having a degree of status protection, and you've got a serious mitigation advantage over most other ranged combatants (with the major exception of range-built VEATs).
You just won't do the damage that would put you up there with warshades or crab spiders. So you're not 'top tier' you're 'mediocre' - in the middle. Edit - and even with their damage advantages I'd put blasters mostly in the middle, in 'mediocre' too - they don't have the survivability, at least not without IO builds. They only go up to 'good' when you IO them into a softcapped, high damage ranged attacker.
What I'm saying is that a measuring stick has two ends, and a middile, and that a lot of posters seem to discount deny or disparage the existence of the top end and simply try to claim balance falls between the low end and the middle rather than putting the middle between low and high where it belongs.Quote:Also, you're going to need to get your measuring stick adjusted if you think +4/x8 is a balancing point for the developers. Some players have that measuring stick for themselves and the sets they play, but that's the advantage of our game having a difficulty slider. They can play there if they want, but no one HAS to. And no powerset or AT needs to be able to, either.
You can certainly point to what other ATs can do and show that Peacebringers or Warshades have issues that the other ATs do not, but you're not going to get any traction if your balance point is that "Kheldians should totally be able to fight +4/x8 with no problems."
The game is designed with SOs in mind, while still accounting for the bonuses IOs offer. That's well short of +4/x8 (which is a level attainable through a build and player ability, which is good to remember as well).
Aganhim, that change to Warshade's Dwarf form was pretty helpful. A lot of players were pointing out that the longer mire in Dwarf Form made Dwarf for Warshades a lot weaker than Peacebringers. Technically, it was a nerf to Warshades overall damage potential, but it did make fighting in Dwarf more valid for them.
In short, my measuring stick is fine. I'm just looking at the whole stick, not just the bottom half of it. And I think people who aren't are doing themselves, and the discussion, a disservice by not doing the same with theirs. Or by using sticks that are too small.
There's nothing wrong with an AT being mediocre. But there's also nothing wrong with it being mediocre on "SO's" and then having room to grow into being truly awesome with IOs, too. Instead of just being stuck with "mediocre, no matter what you do to your build." Sorta like the opposite of if you couldn't use IOs to softcap your blaster; he'd do damage, sure, but not survive well. Now the PB will survive well, but even with being IO'd out the PB's damage can't go up too much farther. Wanting IOs to improve a character isn't some kind of "crime against balance." -
Almost all melee attacks were changed to do knockdown very early in the game's history, except where it was explicitly decided not to (like crane kick) primarily (if not solely) because of the broad annoyance factor of the people playing them who didn't want to have to chase things around to keep hitting them all the time, every time. Though there was also a factor where popular sets like super strength were throwing things out of their defense buffing auras (invincibility) and thus hurting their user's survivability more than helping it, as I recall.
I'd guess that the only reason more people aren't annoyed by PB knockback is because there is hardly anyone playing them. I know I was annoyed by my own KB when I was still playing mine. It'd sorta grow over the course of a session and just make playing for extended periods... wearying, I guess is the word. After just a few hours of it I'd be ready to play or do something else.
And I also agree with the poster who said that PBs are still not up to par in the top tiers of play - this is one of the reasons I wanted the 'dom treatment' for their attacks, stat changes that improve output while increasing recharge and end use (two of the three major things IOs can help you with) would give them a lot more room to grow with increasingly expensive builds.
I do understand and respect that people have their own views and opinions on things like 'character tiers' or what does or should constitute performance standards. There's actually a lot of value in maintaining that the top tier shouldn't be the only standard of balance.
But there's no value, and indeed it's harmful to the game and the AT under discussion, to maintain that the top tier shouldn't be a standard of balance at all.
The game reality is what it is. +4x8 and above is a standard that exists, and is not just doable but pretty commonly so. It must be considered too. Clamping your hands over your ears and yelling "na na na na I can't heeear you" at the top of your lungs won't make all the high performance ATs go away. -
Quote:Very technically, what I've wanted mainly was for my peacebringer to be as statistically competent as any mediocre scrapper build combination (something that yeah, these changes may actually achieve once you count in cosmic balance +damage, if you have the right team for it - technically they achieve it for nova and human form both, even). I didn't care how it got there, though I always favored the human form because it seemed like the alien forms performed their designed roles as well as they were intended to ("not as good as a blaster; not as good as a tanker"), while the human form had things that could be improved on without hitting the "other AT caps" still.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
So your answer is to just buff human form in a vacuum and ignore the other two forms altogether?
Have you considered that improving nova form would give the developers more leeway to improve the human form's ranged dpa numbers? The design might be flawed and clunky, but - like it or not - we're shapeshifters. We should have the option to play effectively in human form, but we should also have the option to benefit from having three forms. The current changes take that benefit away, and I refuse to accept the forms as some vestigial token. You've fought bitterly for years to promote the viability of human form, and now that you have that viability you seem to be saying that the other two forms should suffer the same fate.
You didn't want to settle for two-thirds of an archetype, and I'm not going to settle for one-third. We have three forms. They should ALL have benefits.
I'm not saying the current changes shouldn't go live - I'm saying that outside of the light form change they're not giving peacebringers enough overall benefit to merit what they're doing to the forms. I'm willing to play human form for now and be patient for other changes - but I'm drawing a line in the sushi: these changes need to be followed up with buffs to the forms.
But in truth, my ideal answer is (and always has been, really) "put rethinking how the forms work from start to finish on the table." Consider solutions like making them 'buff toggles that change your costume but let you use the same (or mostly the same) powers as human' like granite armor, for example. Or making the forms clicks, like 'godmodes' - one for offense, one for defense - that have associated crashes or uptime limits.
I just don't realistically think the devs are going to take that kind of an approach. Especially not at this point in the game. And even if it would result in a cleaner, more balanced kheldian I bet the invested kheldian player community wouldn't go for it either (especially the "Don't Touch My Warshade" posters). Furthermore it's one that warshades don't entirely need except as a simplification that makes them more attractive to newer players. But is something that seems like the devs would want to apply to both ATs for consistency, whether they should or not balance-wise. That's all part of why I never make a big deal about advocating for that: even if it's a good idea, in fact even if it's the best idea, it's not a realistic idea and it's not gonna be a popular idea either. (Plus after the trolling I received at the hands of certain kheldian community members, I decided they were getting what they deserve to be languishing in orphaned ATs and I was gonna go have fun playing instead of posting. With my widow.).
For warshades the forms as we have them work fairly well, in part because warshades better suited to buffing their forms performance, in part because the lion's share of their DPS is form-neutral in extracted essence, and even in part because their human form isn't as invested in 'normal' attack and 'normal' defense powers as the peacebringer is, so there's less duplication between WS Human powers and WS forms powers than there is for PBs.
For PBs? The human form competes directly with the other two for function. This is something I've only recently started realizing, and these changes and the problems they cause (even though the changes are welcome ones) are what really made it obvious to me. And because of that the human form actually competes directly with the other two forms for build resources (like slots) and usage time in play.
Straight up buffing the forms would just put us back to square one where the human form was the poor cousin of the three, realistically, and then buffing human to catch up would put us back here where nova and dwarf would be the poor cousins instead. In the process, which would probably take more years, PBs would be brought up near or even past warshades and other ATs, especially if nova/dwarf ends up the ultimate winner and let you design a character you who can straightforwardly switch from a well-defended, high-damaged ranged offense form to a very survivable defense form while barely touching the human form. I'd be 110% behind form improvements that actually solve the problem. I just think straight buffing their DPS or survivability is like borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Maybe I'm wrong and there's a specific numerical performance point for nova, dwarf and human all that is in balance with each other and other ATs, and that can be reached in this manner. And realistically, a decently-survivable, high-offense nova would 'kill' dwarf just as surely as human, too. So... I can't see that point, and I can't see how to reach it, by taking the forms as they are and just buffing them. If somebody else can come up with a convincing, realistic way of doing so I'll be behind it.
But I personally have come to believe that as long as the alien forms are competitive rather than complementary with human, it's gonna be one or the other. A new 'form' of thinking about the problem is the real way to solve it. Cutting the Gordion Knot, etc etc. I just have so much doubt it's gonna happen, the only reason I'm even saying it now is cause you asked if I wanted it this way with the human on top. The answer's no, but without fundamentally, radically changing the design of the forms as we have now means that for PBs it's like Thunderdome: three forms enter, one form leaves. -
Smiling_Joe, I was looking at the human form attacks and attack chains in specific here, for reasons I'll get to later in my post but that basically boil down to "the forms design we have is terrible and today acts more to hobble peacebringers than to empower them."
Anyway, for human form attacks, using mids with 'arcanatime' enabled, unslotted and unbuffed we have the following:
Gleaming Bolt - DPA ~22.5
Glinting Eye - DPA ~24
Gleaming Blast - DPA ~39.5
Then we have:
Radiant Strike - DPA ~70
Incandescent Strike - DPA ~48.5
DPA, or Damage Per Animation, is the real, practical measure of how much offensive power a given ability has - it's not just how hard it hits, it's how quickly it delivers that damage and lets you use another attack again (ie, the reason why Snipes Are Bad).
When the melee attacks in your chain have two to three times the DPA of the ranged portion of your chain, I think it's safe to say that the ranged attacks are the ones who aren't keeping up their side of the effort.
And since the melee attacks are fairly slow recharging - and there's only the two of them - you can't really ever hit a point where you're not using any ranged attacks in your human form chain. Truthfully even a high recharge chain like RS-IS-RS-eye-blast-eye is ... 50% ranged.
The blasts are already pretty fast, too - none is 2 seconds of animation. So they don't need their animations sped up. They just need to do more damage. And having been raised twice without fixing the damage problem I'd have to say the AT scalar's not the problem, the attack stats themselves are.
Drilling in to one specific issue, I think even if no other changes are made, glinting eye could stand to have its DPA buff to about 30 so it's not so close to gleaming bolt, considering how trivial it is to get bolt to under 0.7 seconds of recharge rate just from global bonuses and making it a 'proc spam' attack instead of enhancing it 'normally.'
Now looking at nova form, with its toggle buff on but no other buffs and slotting, we have nova bolt at ~34 DPA and nova blast at about 56 DPA. It's not a huge DPA advantage, especially because there's only two of them and you can't really make a chain, but it's a DPA advantage (ie, per your request, I have provided numbers to show that you are factually wrong there).
If you want to argue that nova isn't as damaging as human at range when you consider attack chains I'd say "possibly, but then the problem is nova not having a tier 3 blast attack at all, not that the attacks it has are weaker when they clearly aren't."
But I think the problem with nova form (and dwarf form) is the problem of "being forms." It's a fundamental design problem. It's probably not ever going to be fixed in a useful manner, and it may instead continue to be used as an excuse to keep the AT from performing well in a practical sense in order to justify "keeping the forms useful" - like Castle with dwarf.
As long as the forms have the design of separate powers from the human form that are linked to them while disabling human form power use, for peacebringers who have many human form powers that are basically direct competitors to the forms ones, there's just not that many places to go. If the human form competitor powers are even in the same ballpark as the shapeshift form linked ones, the humanform's broad power access overall is going to trump shapeshifting.
But if the human powers aren't competitive, they human form's lack of ability to buff and support the other two forms effectively locks the AT squarely into the lower tiers of play with no way to get out.
Unless radically changing how the forms work is on the table, Peacebringers will in my opinion be better off letting them become vestigial powers and be glad they finally get a high-functioning humanform out of it.
Would you rather have three crappy forms or one really good one?
Edit: Or maybe more accurately - would you rather have your human form 'fighting with' your nova and dwarf forms, or would you rather have it 'win'? -
I'm still a fan of giving kheldian attacks, or rather, the ranged attacks only, the "dominator treatment" and increasing their damage, then adjusting their recharge times and end costs to match.
The kheldian human form melee attacks are, for the most part, actually pretty good. Solar flare and radiant strike could both use being changed into knockdown instead of knockback but in terms of damage/rech/end they're solid. Warshades only really have gravity well, unless you count essence drain... and essence drain does need a lot, IMO, it feels like it's an orphan power and needs to either be made into a real attack like siphon life was, or given a better healing effect.
The ranged attacks, though, don't hit hard enough to hold up their side of your attack chain. -
Quote:The numbers you just posted indicated dwarf was still ahead. Even if the two forms have the same resistance, dwarf does have a larger hp pool, and it's better able to handle mass aggro from having higher mez protection.Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Thing is, with these changes human form is even more survivable than dwarf - never mind the mez. I'd take increased aggro management for dwarf as a trade-off for that, however.
Human's a lot closer for survivability with these changes than it was, especially in the practical sense of not being mezzed by a sneeze, but it definitely hasn't beaten dwarf, as far as I can tell. -
I wasn't going to mention the dwarf thing, though I noticed it before. I'm assuming new designers means new thinking. Maybe whoever's behind the change agreed with me that dwarf form should be for heavy tanking and aggro control and mez shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep the human form's practicality suppressed. Sure, white dwarf's damage is abysmal even by tank standards and its aggro control is terrible, but the aggro control could be reasonably easily improved at least.
The nova form thing is kind of discouraging. Though any improvement to photon seekers that didn't result in their becoming an 'actual pet' would favor the human form, cause that's the only form that can use them under the current design.
Which was the fundamental problem with kheldian design from the start and is what makes them so hard to fix, or even just balance, now.
Also, it doesn't surprise me at all that a warshade has that much superior ongoing DPS survivability. Stygian circle is that good. The "it needs to drain bodies" thing is an example of that mindset where even designers are prone to using execution requirement to justify power - in this case it seems that it's very telling about the raw recuperative power of SC backing up eclipse that the warshade's peak burst survival is actually slightly lower than the peacebringer's (they have less outright mitigation), but their peak sustained DPS survival is 5 to 7.5 times higher because their ability to recover damage is incredible.
Kinda proves me right about how the discussion here shouldn't have been limited to strictly eclipse vs light form mano a mano, though.
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Quote:To be honest, I'm not all that concerned about psi resist. A relative handful of enemies do psi damage at all, and another relative handful of those are particularly dangerous because of their damage. (What scares you more about a Dark Ring Mistress - her damage, or her mask of vitiation? Right. Seers? I'd rather they spammed psi damage at me instead of using surveillance and drain psyche! Grr, I wish drain psyche would go play in traffic.)Originally Posted by Microcosm
Then argue for fixing pulsar. Don't overdue it on lightform when your real problem is with the underperforming mez. Plus, wouldn't you rather have a slightly reduced res value in order to gain some psi? And again you would still be able to hit 85% with either shields or dwarf; no one is trying to take that away.
I'm not even that concerned about the change in general - this might make me dust off and use my PB again, but my current main is still going to fight circles around her. In my experience, enemy debuffs and their still-low damage give me reason to believe that even perma-rescap actually may not be enough to push PBs into the top tiers of play. It wasn't that hard to get seriously high resists on a teamed PB before this, and it didn't exactly wow anybody.
What I'm arguing against here is the sense being given off by some players that seem like they are not wanting to adjust light form for a better internal power balance/role for peacebringers, but rather arguing that peacebringers don't deserve to perform as well as warshades in any regard, period, because warshades are foe drain based. That may not be the intention behind it, but it certainly is the argument being presented. The word 'deserve' is even used outright, posters may backpedal and claim it's not what they 'meant' now that they're being called on it, but it is indubitably what they 'said.'
Cherry-picking the conditions of comparison, refusing to look at the ATs in an overall manner, playing up the purported downsides of the AT/power being defended, playing down the downsides of the AT being improved, these are not valid points or argument techniques, these are techniques of internet rhetoric and as usual when these sorts of posts come out anywhere, they are not being written in good faith here.
What I am arguing against, to be blunt, is the blatant act of 'forum pvp' on the part of these players who are clearly and unarguably trying to limit or block the improvement of another AT to maintain the statistical dominance of the one they prefer to play. And it is, in this specific case most especially, it is outright despicable given both the magnitude of the performance gap and the fact that it has existed and persisted since the introduction of the ATs, years ago.
As a more general newsflash - something being 'situational' or 'execution-based' does not give it the right to be superior, let alone dominant. Maybe what should be argued is that warshades should be made easier so they're more accessible to the playerbase and a tempting buy for players in Freedom, not that their execution requirements mean they 'deserve' to be more powerful for the handful of veteran forumgoers who really, really like them. -
So you never use gravimetric emanation or stygian circle or even dwarf form for survivability?
As long as I wasn't trying to rush through the content I'd turn up my difficulty if I was you, that's playing on too low of a setting for what your character can handle
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Quote:Is eclipse the only thing your warshade uses for survivability?Originally Posted by Microcosm
It's not comparable, It's better. It can't miss, is not dangerous to use in the first place (a partial crash when you have two human heals and a dwarf heal is easily manageable), and caps you whether you face one opponent or several. It also has mez protection (3 is a lot more than 0), and the recovery bonus is much more useful than a flat endgain.
It's only really worse in two ways: it won't cap nova, and it has no psi.
No?
Didn't think so. -
Quote:There are very few situations where an EB can't be defeated by any AT using primarily their insp tray. And if you're not soloing the AV (which some would say is a nonstandard playstyle) then you can just accept the help of your teammates and not worry about the fact that you aren't at the stat caps for damage and resistance during the entire fight.Originally Posted by ketch
Unless, as stated, that single enemy is an EB or AV. Given that these are usually the last man standing as well there is no fuel for Eclipse barring unusual circumstances (e.g. the waves of ambushes at the end of the ITF). Of course, you could plan ahead to provide targets for Eclipse/mires, but that requires your teammates cooperate in leaving them alive (perhaps at the expense of their own safety).
Its general situation is "there are 5 or more targets available for it." That is more situational than "I can use it whenever I feel like" but it is not by any stretch a very uncommon situation.Quote:How's this? Every power is situational. Obviously, you don't use a heal when your health is full. You don't use AoE's when only a single target is surviving. In sayomh that Eclipse is situational, THB is communicating that Eclipse is more situational than the comparable power in Light Form.
Further, being more situational doesn't make it less powerful (by this logic followup or soul drain are more situational than buildup - I know which I'd rather have on any given character, though!).
And further still - under this change eclipse is individually a less powerful power than light form. Light form does more! That still doesn't mean PBs are now eclipsing warshades as a total package even in the realm of survivability. But if they were to, demonstrably, warshades retain numerous offensive advantages regardless.
One AT being more offensively powerful and the other being more defensively powerful is a lot closer to 'balanced' than warshades plain out unilaterally dominating peacebringers in every regard. Indeed given the game's tilt towards favoring offense over defense, warshades have the tastier slice of the pie even if it's not the bigger one. -
Quote:You shouldn't need eclipse to beat 1 of any given standard enemy.Originally Posted by ketch
Scenario 1: Eclipse is recharged. There is only one enemy currently alive.
Scenario 2: Eclipse is recharged. There are 18 enemies tightly grouped.
Obviously, the second scenario makes for better use of eclipse and the mires as using it on one enemy hampers its effectiveness. A peacebringer with the new Light Form can utilize it without losing effectiveness. Because there is a preferred situation for the use of Eclipse, one could call it situational.
Of course, that's all arguing semantics. I thought THB was being fairly clear when he stated that it required pre-existing conditions and related risks.
And you can contrive to acquire adds for AV soloing attempts.
Whenever you are going to want to eclipse or mire, there will be targets for them. I think 'misfired eclipses' are being overstated as a threat here. Unless a PB is following you around KBing everything with solar flare on purpose because he hates warshades. Which I would think is absolutely hilarious the first two or three times.
Okay, who am I kidding, that would totally be "Sunstorm's Revenge" and it would probably never get old to see. -
Quote:I'd have to take the sticker, because apparently it's not allowed to be as nice as the trophy you should get for 'best and most consistent overreaction to internet posts, first day of beta.'Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Congratulations, you can be condescending! Would you like a trophy? A sticker perhaps?
(Don't read into things so much).
No, what I'm saying is that if you're trying to say that light form shouldn't be as effective as eclipse because of things that aren't light form or eclipse (in this case, mires) then you've opened the door to comparing the other powers the two ATs have as well and how the whole package fits together.Quote:As for the rest of your post- You make it seem like I'm saying the AT's are perfectly fine and balanced when that's not how I feel at all. You started getting all snide and angsty because I said Warshades deserve more survivability from Eclipse since it is a situational power- It requires certain conditions to be met and incurs much more risk, whereas Light Form can be used at any time. Sorry for mentioning Mires in there too, your highness.
If you want to say eclipse is risky to get off, you are somewhat right. But even with a milder crash than on live, light form is still risky to have end during a battle. One's risky at its start. The other's risky at its finish. I don't know that I'd say one is riskier than the other, but I would say light form's risk is harder to manage. The warshade can choose when and where they eclipse, the peacebringer can't put off light form ending for 10 more seconds because he's low on health already and a Victoria robot just placated him.
But even if we want to call the risks equal or indeed say WSes have a higher risk, you don't eclipse (or mire) in a vacuum where you have no other powers to support them. You don't light form in a vacuum either. Warshades can use powers to mitigate their risk when getting eclipse or mire off, like GE. Peacebringers pulsar isn't suited for preemptive mitigation at all, and it's not even that good at 'post-emptive' mitigation. And stygian circle is an exceptionally powerful healing tool that can be used repeatedly and at short durations.
In the big picture, when you look at the expanded mitigation power lineup, I think warshades are still slightly ahead even with this change to light form. They just aren't 'light years' ahead. Hyuk hyuk. -
Quote:How about "don't set up straw men and I won't burn them down around you?"Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Know your own AT? Uhh.. That was uncalled for. I know my AT well, thanks. How about "don't be a jerk?"
Mire is only tangentially relevant to light form vs eclipse. What about gravimetric emanation (fixed word) vs pulsar? Warshades have a powerful, preemptively useful survivability tool there. PBs... noooot so much. I think that's at least as relevant, no?Quote:I brought up Mires as an example of a benefit that Warshades have over Peacebringers that is situational and high risk, and therefore deserved, in response to your original comment.
And stygian circle is just as key to warshade survivability numbers as eclipse is, and it's something peacebringers still have no real answer to in terms of magnitude of effect or frequency of use.
As far as "situational" - what situation besides "there are enemies here" do you need damage or damage resistance in?
Right, I thought so. -
Quote:And lightform can crash while you're midbattle.Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The thing to take into account is that Warshades are more powerful for a reason: We incur a very risky playstyle to achieve the feats we are capable of. Our 85% resistance to all and 300% damage comes from charging head on into spawns with no guarantee of any protection whatsoever- Eclipse can misfire.
Also, know your own AT. The real key to warshade dps is the extracted essences, not the mires. Both kheldian branches are flirting with the damage cap from their team buffs in many times. Warshades will still handily outdamage peacebringers as long as they're able to get out 2 extracted essences, let alone 3.
Now PBs just have comparable defense outside of dwarf form, which is good, because black dwarf form is significantly more powerful offensively than white dwarf too. -
Quote:Oh noes. The 6 years of performance dominance by warshades is under a moderate threat on the defensive side of the equation!Originally Posted by Microcosm
I'd like to add that, after seeing it in beta, I agree the resistance on the new lightform should be lowered a bit (regardless of putting defense in the shields or not). Eclipse needs to remain stronger, as a more dangerous power to use, a power which can't be used preemptively, and a power without mez protection. I don't feel Lightform's crash is a good enough tradeoff.
If this trend keeps up, then in 2017 peacebringers will get something that's as good as extracted essence! Quickly, to your forum battlestations, this cannot stand unopposed! -
Quote:Because of how shark-jumpingly ridiculous the people who are trying to be all serious actually end up beingOriginally Posted by Xanatos
While that IS true, why does this ONE trope seem to fit EVERYONE in Pocket D so well?
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The Good (designed well, fits well, and looks good):
Numina's outfit design is excellent. It's elegant, unique without being too visually busy, and really speaks to her mystic theme.
Ghost Widow is both very identifiable and appropriately ghostly. The long hair in particular really works for her because most other widow NPCs, even Kalinda, are all wearing full head covers.
Black Scorpion's armor is great, especially considering his background and personality. It has a very 'used' and 'modified' look to it, rather than being a pristine slick and sleek design - fitting someone who's a fighter, not a scientist.
Wretch's look is perfect to his personality and backstory. He looks as tragic as he is.
Arbiter Sands. Most Arbiters wear full helmets, the fact that he's wearing sunglasses and has long hair speaks volumes about his being an unusual specimen in Arachnos.
Marauder, specifically his gloves. The junk-wrapped 'jury rigged' power gloves really tie in to his backstory roots from before he became a Praetor, and they say something strong about his personality just through the visual, especially because they contrast with the slick, clean high-tech look of Praetoria and the PPD and IDF. He could stand to lose that big, goofy-looking grin though.
Emperor Cole in his IDF uniform. A formal military uniform is a classic dictator look, but the fact that his is white also speaks to how he thinks he's the good guy.
Foreshadow has a great overall look, in my opinion. He combines a unique, identifiable but sleek headpiece with equally sleek and classic-looking spandex. His look is simple and very comic-booky, but there's no mistaking him for somebody else.
Mirror Spirit has a lot of visually busy unique pieces, but makes it work well enough. I think her hairstyle is especially complex, but her robes balance it out.
Doctor Vahzilok. He looks disgusting. Excellent work.
The Clockwork King. Classic brain-jar, an excellent look that ties in perfectly with his powers and background.
Captain Castillo. The 'Fabio in flame-accented jumpsuit' look goes so, so well with his personality.
The Honoree. He looks exactly as tragic as he is too.
Jade Spider. Very unique, very cool, very creepy looking. Also very big.
I'm a big fan of the Zeus Titan boss NPCs and the Kronos Titan monster/giant monster. Who doesn't dig giant robots?
The Rularuu are a very visually interesting group, but the Overseer type bosses really take the cake, eat it - with their eyelid teeth(!) - and then come back for seconds. I don't think there's any other enemy in the entire game (or even in many other games) that screams 'weird, inhuman monstrosity' so loudly and so well.
The Bad (just... bad):
Sister Psyche, IMO, looks absolutely nothing like someone who was supposedly born in the '20s and was thus growing up during the Great Depression probably would look. Her costume is way too sexualized for her background and on top of that, it doesn't even look that good. Plus - redheaded psychic in a sexy green outfit? I think I just watched her win at EVO last weekend...
Manticore's look seems dated and badly textured to me. He could use some accessories to indicate he's an archer, at least, even if he doesn't lose the leather sonic the hedgehog suit.
Citadel... just looks off. He doesn't look like a robot or android, he looks like an alien. In weird tights. And he looks nothing like the Mek-Men or Wolfpack robots that supposedly are being made from the same technology.
Most of the Vindicators are showing their age pretty badly IMO, and none of their costumes really impressed me much to begin with. Specifically I hope Ms Liberty gets a makeover along with Atlas Park; notably she's wearing Excalibur and it looks like it's the size of a butterknife! Given her complexion there's almost no contrast in Swan's appearance at all, making her extremely bland despite the fact that she's wearing only slightly more than tissue paper. Mynx is very generic looking and while I assume she's wearing tights she looks way more like a naked catgirl than any signature character should. Luminary is also very generic-looking and made from generic pieces.
Mother Mayhem has been mentioned. Her belt buckle really, really gets me though. Every time I see her in the BAF cutscene I wonder how she hasn't disemboweled herself on that thing yet. The hair, the bust, I could deal with that if it didn't seem like she would commit accidental seppuku by picking something up from the ground.
Clamor. What's up with the fishnets safetypinned to her legs? I get that she's freakshow, but that's... ugh. And her face looks like she's either a big fan of Hellraiser or she was going in for plastic surgery and then left after they drew some guidelines for the incisions.
Requiem doesn't have enough contrast in his look, especially the head. Which is smoking in the same color as all the rest of him and really, that smoke completely obscures how his head looks in gameplay, giving him nearly a 'headless horseman' effect IMO. A sad example of black not being the new black. His very elegant military uniform could have worked so well.
Arakhn's look meanwhile... I don't know how to describe it. She's ridiculously angular in design - the unique thigh boots that come to a point, the deep V cleavage, the 'finger in an electric socket hairdo,' the big collar. But the angles go against each other and make it look like her outfit's all over the place, thrown together rather than crafted as a whole.
Serafina... yeeeeeeah. Just look at her. It's self explanatory.
The Ugly (could be good, but something's wrong):
Captain Mako has a great look... except for the part where he's kinda small and generally hard to see ingame. For reasons besides the way he turns invisible as one of his powers, I mean.
Sirocco's face looks dead. The racoon eyes, his complexion, his expression... he looks like a zombie. That's the only problem I have with him. I can understand him looking haggard or regretful or troubled. But he wasn't Left 4 Dead.
Dr Aeon in his labcoat is pretty cool, but his gloves clip soooo badly. Meanwhile his power armor is just too bland looking.
Barracuda's look just doesn't quite work for me. It fits her background and it's unique, but it just doesn't look good IMO.
Ice Mistral is a little too spikey and way too blue all over.
Nightstar looks far too much like a Victoria robot, especially since she has the smokeyhead that I assume is a reference to her drawing on star powers or something. As a named 'signature' Praetorian, she shouldn't be faceless. I think IVy is a much better example of how a 'unique Praetorian Clockwork' should work.
Siege also lacks a very unique look, being basically a repainted warwalker, and the look he does have is kind of goofy for a signature enemy with his slouching posture and the 'fridge logic' of 'how does he get through doors?!'
Countess Crey has a unique, sexy dress that does sort of hint at her story and personality, but it's really not appropriate at all for corporate work and doesn't have the kind of 'power and money' look I'd have given her.
Maestro has a very classic comic/cartoon magician-like villain look to him (he looks like he'd fit into an 80s fantasy B movie perfectly!)... which is entirely out of place in the high-tech Council lab he's encountered in.
Primal Colonel Duray has a great face... but why oh why is his uniform purple?! It doesn't look militaristic at all that way! -
Quote:I'm pretty sure you can't use one while you're mid-animation, which is what I'm talking about - before you finish standing up from a KB/KD you can't do anything even if it's something that would break other control like dwarf or a BF. It's been a long time since I've had to deal with this though, cause the first thing I do on any new character who doesn't have it already is to get them a -KB IO.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes they do.
However if you're hit by more KB while you're already in the animation, you can be juggled by it. I remember very clearly how I nearly quit the game in frustration from how often my defender was being chain-KB'd to death back in issue 3 (instead I just switched to playing a scrapper, heh). -
Well 'gathering observations' is called 'gathering data' and is a key part of the scientific method
But most of the time I'm not experimenting strictly with the game, I'm just playing it. And I admit my perception of how often people should die is skewed by my personal standards: I run some very capable and survivable characters. Mostly what I'm trying to say, though, is that I totally see where the other poster is coming from, I generally expect theoretical numbers to exceed what happens ingame even in 'average' or 'conservative' cases, and can think of a few reasonable explanations - including the already mentioned player skill based ones - for why it'd look that way.
Those things would be what I would experiment with and gather data on if I were interested enough to, which I'm not. But if someone is: in addition to trying to figure out how often average (not super-duper-quality) warshade players get partial eclipses, I've seen a few warshade players fairly consistently getting killed while trying to get an eclipse off to start with, in an NPC alpha strike. Figuring out how often that happens is probably not a waste of time. And finally, warshades and PBs don't have debuff protection or debuff avoidance from defense, and even if you've got good resistances and healing, those debuffs piling up can still drag you down pretty quickly - cascading defense failure applies to non-defense-based characters too. Getting the effects of debuffing nailed down might be enlightening in a lot of ways; personally I think NPC debuffs, in the volume they come at you in during 8 person content, are more dangerous than damage to the characters who should even be on that difficulty at all.
On a final note... I think on SO'd builds, NPC knockback is also a very serious and very underrated issue. You can Breakfree or dwarf out of other control. But if you're being KB'd you can't do anything until the animation finishes, BFs don't protect against it, and you can be 'juggled' - quite easily so, in fact, since many npcs get knockback attacks. -
Actually, it's not at all impossible for the gameplay reality to not be measuring up to the theoretical numbers, for one reason or another. In fact it would probably be more noteworthy (and suspicious, IMO) if the numbers did match correctly all the time, because the theoretical numbers generally don't account for player tactics or player mistakes.
Warshades are fairly complex characters. They have better numbers, but they're relatively high-execution - they have more opportunities to make mistakes and those mistakes are going to hurt their performance more. Things like 'missed eclipses' or 'non full eclipses' are going to drag them down, and those kinds of things do happen in gameplay: say, you go in for an eclipse and someone else KB's the spawn away from you. How often does that sort of thing happen? I don't know, and can't think at the moment of a good way of estimating it either (where 'good' is defined as 'doesn't require datamining, is understandable by normal people, and isn't just pulled out of the posterior').
But I do know anecdotally that I see warshades dying plenty ingame, certainly more than their numbers would suggest (though I also see a lot of PBs dying more than I think they ought to, too). I generally am not observing them so I don't know why, and generally they are PUG members so I don't know their builds or players and can't speak to the strength (or weakness) of their skill or build. Maybe the game has simply become that lethal for characters who aren't at the defense softcap.