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Yup, nutty. I like nutty. I'm not a numbers person so I enjoy playing my PB and WS solo (and as a duo) and have a fantastic time as long as I keep aware. However, I do feel like I'm the "third wheel" when playing on any team other than one primarily made up of SG members.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
What say you, Kheldians? Anyone agree, or am I crazy? Or both. I'm willing to 'fess up to a little nuttiness now and then.
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Lumin (D4,50), Caelestes Lux (PB,50), Corpus Operandi (MM,50)
Last night I used my primarily White Dwarf to do the weekly in Sharks. I joined with two other Masterminds, a brute, blaster and widow.
This SF has several AVs and in one of them, there are 3 AVs. Well, let's just say there's no one moment where my health went below 50%.
I can see the potential of having teammates that buff my damage. It definitely helps especially when I only have 3 attacks.
However, when I try to solo tip missions, I normally do +2 because I find low settings boring but man, my dwarf form takes forever to kill a +2/+3 boss. My Nova doesn't have the survival to kill them and my human form powers are not slotted.
I like Cosmic Balance. It's unique.
I was thinking Tanker just got Bruise effect with 20% resistance debuff so they deal a bit more damage during solo and give them a bit more role on a team besides just tanking.
Using that line of thought, I think adding Procs in Cosmic Balance can be fun. We already know we can add "buff" to us that gives us Proc Chance. I started a thread about giving Nova form even more damage potential (through +energy damage) because by itself, it is very very limited. However, it is hard to set up a system where the game adds buff just to certain damage type?
White Dwarf form needs a bit more damage period. I was going to suggest that White Flare debuff resistance by 10% (nothing major) but debuffs Energy Resistance by 20%. This is similar to Venom Grenade which debuffs resistance by 20% but Toxic resistance by 40%. Now they can make this Proc-like. Each proc debuffs 5% of resistance and 10% of energy resistance and with more teammates, the chance is higher.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Wow, that was an awesome read. Thanks for sharing this.
Kudos, Joe, for finding the real root of PBs problem. The inherent makes PBs awesome on teams but does nothing for them solo. As such, they can't buff the solo without overbuffing the team.
Ever since Vigilance was changed, I knew something needed to be done about the kheldian inherent. History: Vigilance was changed largely because the inherent did nothing for a solo defender.
I also like the proc idea because it allows the Warshade inherent to do something. As it stands now, the warshade inherent tends to be wasted.
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Used to be that every other AT benefited from their inherent even while solo, with the exception being Defenders, that was changed so that they now benefit while solo.
Teaming was never an issue for me with my PB, it's when I'm solo, which happens to be much more often than when I team that's the issue. Please make our inherent do something for us when solo.
Just to throw some off the cuff ideas out:
1) If we can "feed" off of our teammates, why cant we feed off of our foes?
2) If we don't have to expend energy/effort to maintain our inherent when we are not on a team why can't we redirect some of that energy/effort elsewhere?
3) If we have more that one form, why can't those qualify to feed our inherent as pseudo team mates? Our pets?
4) Why not borrow the dual pistol mechanics and give us two toggles, one toggle activates Cosmic Balance the way it currently works to feed off of our teammates, the other works to feed off of our foes (which would work while solo for obvious reasons).
This gives us a more tactical choice to pick from while actually teamed since we can control what buffs we want to get, those from our teammates or those from our foes.
That's all my brain can push out at the moment in terms of ideas, I'm sure with time I can come up with better ones. :P
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Yeah, that's the reason Widows and Soldiers were given cheaper versions of the leadership toggles, to make them an asset to the team.
Instead of the flawed HEAT design, which makes the team an asset to the Kheldian.
It's been obvious to me for more than a year that the Kheldian inherent NEEDS to be changed to provide a decent benefit to the archetype ALL the time, not just on teams. And that to make a Kheldian an asset to THE TEAM, there needs to be a benefit provided to THE TEAM and not the other way around.
Making matters worse for this "Selfish buff while teamed" approach to the inherent is that most moderately coordinated teams will steamroll through content whether or not the Kheldian is there.
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And you can put any AT or powerset in the place of "Kheldian" and it'll still be as true. So, the point is.... what, exactly? Really, *most* inherents are "selfish" - |
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Making matters worse for this "Selfish buff while teamed" approach to the inherent is that most moderately coordinated teams will steamroll through content whether or not the Kheldian is there.
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Stalkers - get the crits while hidden - and a higher chance while teamed (and close to teammates.)
Brutes - Build fury regardless of the team. The team doesn't benefit. (You can say "Well, they do more damage." Guess what the Kheld buff does....)
Masterminds - again, no benefit to the team.
Dominators - Builds their *own* status protection and control strength.
Corruptors - Their own damage.
VEAT - their own regen/recov. (The leadership buffs are not their inherent, they're selected powers.)
Tank - This one you can actually say IS a benefit, with Gauntlet's little AOE taunt.
Blaster - see brute.
Controller - see brute.
Defender - They *lose* damage as teammates join, and the team has to be hurting for their discount to kick in.
Scrapper - see brute.
So, of all the inherents, only the Tank has a direct benefit to the team via their inherent, and that through aggro control. All the others can very much be called "selfish" to one degree or another.
Thanks for posting the new numbers Joe. As it stands there are ways to circumvent the normal levels of PB damage (Reactive Interface, -Resistance Procs, etc.) but they don't change the fact that Cosmic Balance does us no good unless we have team mates.
I'll echo the sentiment that ever since the Vigilance change an inherent that doesn't assist in some way while solo just isn't any good. I love teaming but it's not plausible to presume that a Kheldian will always be teamed up (Especially considering they perform pretty well solo regardless). I'm all for a change to the inherent to make it more beneficial when we're delivering cosmic justice on our own.
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
cosmic justice
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Yeah. You should probably trademark that.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I agree with Starcloud. The dev's aren't going to rework Kheldian powers to start granting team buffs like VEATs but they can alter the inherents. The Kheldian inherents should provide some benefit to team members in exchange for all the buffs that Kheldians receive. |
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Yeah, that's the reason Widows and Soldiers were given cheaper versions of the leadership toggles, to make them an asset to the team.
Instead of the flawed HEAT design, which makes the team an asset to the Kheldian. It's been obvious to me for more than a year that the Kheldian inherent NEEDS to be changed to provide a decent benefit to the archetype ALL the time, not just on teams. And that to make a Kheldian an asset to THE TEAM, there needs to be a benefit provided to THE TEAM and not the other way around. Making matters worse for this "Selfish buff while teamed" approach to the inherent is that most moderately coordinated teams will steamroll through content whether or not the Kheldian is there. |
Kheldians need to bring more to the team than "I can kinda mimic AT's A, B, and C" because that idea is outdated. We don't have AT's locked into roles like we did 6 years ago.
The game has evolved with powerset and epic/patron proliferation that allows for specialized AT's to crossover into other roles without the need for Kheldians to fill in those gaps. There needs to be a reason for members of a moderately coordinated team to say "Invite that Kheld!" besides filling a space.
I'd also like to see a solo buff similar to the vigilance changes.
@Dawun
Old School
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We didn't have ATs locked into roles 6 years ago, either. |
Originally Posted by _Dawun_
Kheldians need to bring more to the team than "I can kinda mimic AT's A, B, and C" because that idea is outdated. We don't have AT's locked into roles like we did 6 years ago.
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| The game has evolved with powerset and epic/patron proliferation that allows for specialized AT's to crossover into other roles without the need for Kheldians to fill in those gaps. There needs to be a reason for members of a moderately coordinated team to say "Invite that Kheld!" besides filling a space. |
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Maybe they weren't "locked" but the original AT's were not as versatile as they are now. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
We didn't have ATs locked into roles 6 years ago, either.
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| Only reason ever needed to invite someone: "Hey, want to play?" If you need more than that, you're (generic you) stressing over it too much. |
For example, you could place an outstanding Kheldian on a team and they might help that team slaughter mobs for hours. That player could leave a positive impression of Kheldians based their performance. Does that team lose a significant benefit when that guy leaves? Not really.
It would be nice to be able tell a player that doesn't know much about HEATs, "Hey, invite that Kheld because they can do ______ for us. It would be great to have someone with _____ for this TF/trial". Adding a some type of team enhancement to both inherents could fill in those blanks for people.
If we're going to ask dev's to change the kheldian inherents, then team-friendliness should be considered along with solo performance.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
Okay, im gonna assume you went with 3 dps types, 3 defense types, for your stand in "average team" on these numbers...Assuming because I suck at reading spreadsheets and thats what you seem to have gone with.
I dont really know how changing our inherent will help us get changes faster...because changing our inherent is a fairly big overhaul of a change in and of itself.
Next up, changing the inherent doesn't make wonky choices like pulsar being stun and Incandescent strike being a hold any less wonky...it doesn't really give us a use out of our inherent solo...and any change to the inherents for khelds just leaves PB's still in the lurch and makes WS's even more godlike since they were capping their resists and damage solo on x8 anyways.
Dont get me wrong, I think that WS's and PB's capping their resists very easily on teams with barely any thought or effort is a bad thing to begin with, but any change to PB's and WS's are gonna want it too, and any change to WS's will either overpower them or require the touching of their golden calf...and WS's dont like the thought of someone touching their golden calf.
I just don't see how this is the golden bullet for all of our problems that folks are making it out to be.
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And they can be wrong about that role, as well. See any "healer" broadcast (and the multiple comments made about "That's a sure-fire way to tell I don't want to be on that team.") |
Originally Posted by _Dawun_
I'm glad you're not picky, I'm not either, but there are plenty of players that have a low opinion of Kheldians and they do stress over the usefulness of team members. You can point to any of the other AT's and invite them to play a specific role or because they offer some specific powers that benefit a team. It's harder to make the same argument for Kheldians.
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And yes, it's harder to make "the same" argument for Kheldians - because it's the flexibility OF the kheldian that is what they're bringing. Tank getting too much aggro? Kheld in Dwarf can off-tank and protect the squishies. Need more firepower? Nova. Throw in some control powers and the like, mix well, bake at 425 degrees for 35 minutes and you've got a Kheld.
The flip side of it, of course, is that while a controller or defender - or blaster, or tank or what have you can be turned away because "we're really set for that already," again, the Kheld is filling multiple roles and can start to make up where the team is lacking. And if the team is balanced, you've got a fairly strong Kheld there to help roll through everything.
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I did indeed go with three damage types and three defense types - not because it's some sort of most common mix or average team, but just to show that it doesn't take a full team of one type or the other to push kheds (and more specifically, peacebringers) past other archetypes in performance.|
Originally Posted by Zenyth
Okay, im gonna assume you went with 3 dps types, 3 defense types, for your stand in "average team" on these numbers...Assuming because I suck at reading spreadsheets and thats what you seem to have gone with.
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| I dont really know how changing our inherent will help us get changes faster...because changing our inherent is a fairly big overhaul of a change in and of itself. |
There are different levels of change, too. My idea of a proc effect replacing buffs was, tbh, not terribly well thought-out. They could just as easily decide to lower the buffs teammates give so that it does take an entire team of defenders to push us past scrappers in dps.
The question is: are we willing to trade that nerf for whatever changes they would make to help peacebringers and solo khelds? Now's the time to have that discussion.
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Next up, changing the inherent doesn't make wonky choices like pulsar being stun and Incandescent strike being a hold any less wonky...it doesn't really give us a use out of our inherent solo...and any change to the inherents for khelds just leaves PB's still in the lurch and makes WS's even more godlike since they were capping their resists and damage solo on x8 anyways. Dont get me wrong, I think that WS's and PB's capping their resists very easily on teams with barely any thought or effort is a bad thing to begin with, but any change to PB's and WS's are gonna want it too, and any change to WS's will either overpower them or require the touching of their golden calf...and WS's dont like the thought of someone touching their golden calf. I just don't see how this is the golden bullet for all of our problems that folks are making it out to be. |
It's our inherent that's the wonkiest of all... letting peacebringers soar from lackluster performers to the height of performance while doing relatively nothing for the already-awesome warshades. It's our inherent that allows us to surpass specialist archetypes at what they do best while at the same time allowing us to languish beneath a poor archetype design.
Our inherent is a band-aid over that poor design, and should be addressed with any changes to that design IMO.
But my opinion is neither here nor there; I'm betting that the powers team has seen this already. I'm beting that's why we can't get any changes made that aren't small changes like the buff to glowing touch, and I suspect that's why longstanding acknowledged bugs like shapeshifting being interruptible are put off while bugs that would benefit us like beast run available in forms are immediately squashed.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Its funny last week on my way to work i was thinking about exactly this.. someone had said a quote i cant remember who, basically it was something like
"pb on a team plays like please give me a buff for my inherent, and ws play like weather you give me the buff or not i will still cap that with my own powers.." The route didn't go exactly like that but you get the idea..
anyway ever since i saw that ive been thinking that the inherents would prob be the quickest fix.. if they didn't want to fix the two AT'S..
I was thinking for pb's let them reflect the At's they team with since that is the recurring theam.
So for example pbs have a scrapper/stalker on the team, they would get a small chance to land a critical
Defender/Corrupter there debuff increases whit those AT's on team, also they receive some debuff resistence.
Controller/Dominators: pbs mez increases also their mez resistance plus a mag of protection for each AT.
BLASTERS: The dmg gets increased.
SOA: Increase in pool powers such as Assault, tactics and stealth..
Now for solo, they can give us the options of roles.. so no ones on the team a drop down box would appear next to name or something and you have a choice which AT you would like to mimic..
So say I wanted the keep my resistance but get a lil dmg boost in critical i would switch to scrapper role and run like that..
Or say I want a crasy amount of damage I would switch to blaster role. but my shields would drop say a half resistance to what they normally give.
And so on so fourth..
So solo we get to pick roles, on a team we would have the roles defined depending on how much of each AT is on the team..
In solo mode you will get a significant amount to make solo easier, while in team mode you will get a static amount so that its not too over powerful.
For Ws i think the inherent should be so something new.. that would benefit shades.. i always thought shades needed more defense and longer mez.. so maybe they can get a bar similar to fury/domination..
the longer the shade fights the bar fills up .. you also have a button associated with the bar, at any point you can hit this button , which will give the shade +def +rez to mes+ more mez duration in its own powers.
The more the bar fills up .. the more power you get out of the button. the button should be on a timer and the bar can not fill up while the button is activated..
Lol well thats just my ideas.. please number crunchers do your thing and critique and ad on.. i doubt in the next 20 issues we would ever see change but its cool to dream... So add on please.
EDIT EDIT EDIT
Just thougth about the teaming part of the inherent.. that can actually stay where it is now.. there is nothing wrong with that.. the prob for pb is solo.. i want to be able to solo 53 on my pb.. so role swapping would maybe help that....
So disregard the first part of my post. The current inherent is much more beneficial to team and still benefits the kheldian.. but the second part about the solo is where its at..
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I find Peacebringer a pretty terrible soloer. Dwarf form kills too slow, Nova form doesn't have enough survival and Human form requires a lot of slotting and lack mez protection.
I think we need to find a better balance for Team VS Soloing (or small team up to 3 players). Defender got a decent change in their inherent. They get damage buff when soloing and that buff gets smaller as the team size increases.
I think Peacebringer needs something like that. When soloing, you have a chance to do damage proc but that chance grows smaller as the team gets larger. Peacebringer can survive with resistance and heals but the killing speed is just slow. Instead of a straight up damage buff, I would like to see something like 20% for an Energy Damage Proc in each attack but that chance gets cut down to 15%, 10%, 5% and eventually with 4 players, it's gone.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Random observation: My original intent for this thread was to point out what our inherent does - and doesn't do - for us, but does anyone besides me find it ...interesting... that a thread has been created basically proving that BOTH warshades and peacebringers can out-damage scrappers and no one seems to be all that enthusiastic about it?
Are Kheldian forum-goers all solists?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Are you sure that PB can out-damage Scrapper? You need how many teammates? 3 will be 60%. That's enough for PB Human to out-damage scrapper? I find it hard to believe. With 7 other +damage, that will be 140% damage boost. In that case, yeah, PB can out-damage scrapper. I do like Cosmic Balance idea. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Random observation: My original intent for this thread was to point out what our inherent does - and doesn't do - for us, but does anyone besides me find it ...interesting... that a thread has been created basically proving that BOTH warshades and peacebringers can out-damage scrappers and no one seems to be all that enthusiastic about it?
Are Kheldian forum-goers all solists? |
When I used to have full human build, I never felt my damage was "high". I do feel the +resistance from teammates because with shields, my resistance was over 50%.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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See the scrapper and brute numbers for yourself.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Are you sure that PB can out-damage Scrapper? You need how many teammates? 3 will be 60%. That's enough for PB Human to out-damage scrapper? I find it hard to believe.
When I used to have full human build, I never felt my damage was "high". I do feel the +resistance from teammates because with shields, my resistance was over 50%. |
Highest damage on SO's was 172 dps.
Now look at the Peacebringer spreadsheet I referenced in the first post.
With 3 defense archetypes, human form dps is 173 dps, Nova is 172.4 (roughly equal to the brute best), and Dwarf is in the middle with 134 dps.
Now look at this link.
Now back to me.
I've always wanted to do that.
Anyway, there you go. Now keep in mind that this doesn't take IO's and set bonuses into account - scrappers and brutes have far more slots with which to get the insane set bonuses that make them so godlike, so the gap really widens once IOs are slotted.
But at one point Kheldians were exceeding the specialist archetypes when teamed. If anything, the impression that kheldians (more specifically, peacebringers) are underperforming comes from an inherent that was designed before there were IO's.
In other words, the gap between Kheldians and other archetypes in the end game has widened because of IO's, and when the game is ostensibly designed around SO's that ain't such a good thing.
EDIT - interesting note. With seven defense archetypes on a team a peacebringer is doing 140% extra damage. Add that to the 100% damage that every power does, and add 94% damage for enhancement (and every attack in the build I used is slotted to 94% damage) and you come out at 334%. What's Build Up give you? 72%?
Boom. You're at the damage cap once you've hit build up. And we say peacebringers are poorly designed.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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Coincidentally, I've always wanted to do that.
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Yeah, I have to admit that I am skeptical. The Kheldian damage modifier is significantly lower than the Scrapper which means while 60% might close the initial gap, any further buffs from teammates will benefit the Scrapper far far more than they will the Peacebringer, who will hit his lower ceiling faster. So the PB might be realizing a greater % of his damage potential by himself thanks to the Inherent, but the Scrapper still has a higher top-end performance, which he is more likely to achieve since the only time this comparison happens is on large teams which are likely to have external buffs. And of course, if you're on a team large enough and well balanced enough to actually be receiving these bonuses, chances are you're steamrolling content anyway. Which means the only time you really wring any benefit out of Cosmic Balance is when that benefit matters less.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Are you sure that PB can out-damage Scrapper? You need how many teammates? 3 will be 60%. That's enough for PB Human to out-damage scrapper? I find it hard to believe. With 7 other +damage, that will be 140% damage boost. In that case, yeah, PB can out-damage scrapper. I do like Cosmic Balance idea.
When I used to have full human build, I never felt my damage was "high". I do feel the +resistance from teammates because with shields, my resistance was over 50%. |
tl;dr the numbers might be correct but I'm not sure they're important.
EDIT: Joe's numbers. Again, it's nice to see that a PB might be able to hit their (lower) damage cap all by themselves, but if anything that just means that they are losing out on external buffs from their teammates that the rest of the team is benefiting from. I'm not convinced this is actually a strike in the PB's favor.
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Ugh! I fell for that trap again! I hate that video!!!!|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
See the scrapper and brute numbers for yourself.
Highest damage on SO's was 172 dps. Now look at the Peacebringer spreadsheet I referenced in the first post. With 3 defense archetypes, human form dps is 173 dps, Nova is 172.4 (roughly equal to the brute best), and Dwarf is in the middle with 134 dps. Now look at this link. Now back to me. I've always wanted to do that. Anyway, there you go. Now keep in mind that this doesn't take IO's and set bonuses into account - scrappers and brutes have far more slots with which to get the insane set bonuses that make them so godlike, so the gap really widens once IOs are slotted. But at one point Kheldians were exceeding the specialist archetypes when teamed. If anything, the impression that kheldians (more specifically, peacebringers) are underperforming comes from an inherent that was designed before there were IO's. In other words, the gap between Kheldians and other archetypes in the end game has widened because of IO's, and when the game is ostensibly designed around SO's that ain't such a good thing. EDIT - interesting note. With seven defense archetypes on a team a peacebringer is doing 140% extra damage. Add that to the 100% damage that every power does, and add 94% damage for enhancement (and every attack in the build I used is slotted to 94% damage) and you come out at 334%. What's Build Up give you? 72%? Boom. You're at the damage cap once you've hit build up. And we say peacebringers are poorly designed. |
It is still surprising to see Peacebringer has the potential. The down side with Nova and Dwarf is that you really lose out on versatility. Changing forms take too much IMO.
I still think Nova form needs a bit more love. Nova has good aoe damage but it is still not offensive enough. I do like Dwarf form (well, this is my first tanking experience to be honest).
PS: Remember we were talking about buffing Stalkers? It is sad to see that another AT has the potential to out-damage Stalker! ugh Stalker needs 7 other teammates within 30' radius just to out-damage Scrapper (with primary attacks only) by 6-7% but that number is misleading because Scrapper has follow-ups and secondary sets that deal more damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Nice work on the numbers and I think you are spot-on in your analysis.
But what really bothers me is every alt I've ever started, short of those that were intended only for certain exploits (PVP-only toons meant for Siren's call, for example) has gotten to 50. I'd stick with the ones I didn't really even enjoy all that much just so I could experience them at all levels in the hopes that they "got better with age." Most, indeed, did just that.
But my Kheldian Peacebringer has been stuck at lvl 41 for over 4 years now. I go back and play her now and then but never for more than a mission before I realize I could better synergize with the team with this alt or that one. I really don't think buffing me solo is going to change that perspective. Its a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none AT and we've known this almost since the inception of the Kheldian HEATs. They don't feel "epic" (remember that argument?) and they sure as heck don't feel very synergistic with the team considering every role they play (psuedo-blaster, psuedo-tank and psuedo-scraptroller for human form) is psuedo-something when the real McCoy AT is right there on the team doing a far superior job to the one we can do.
Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard a team leader say "We need a Kheldian for this mission." Have you? I don't think buffing me solo -OR- teamed (via cosmic balance) is going to change that. But I've heard that sentence said MANY times with substitution of the word "Defender/Corrupter" or "Controller/Dom" or "Damage Dealer" or "Brute/Tank" in place of the word Kheldian before. Teams know what they want/need. Kheldians, especially Kheld PB's, just will NEVER fit into that sentence.
They are simply an aborted novelty by the dev team of the past. And that's that.
Ya know, I got to looking at those spreadsheets linked to in this post the other day, and thought, "I've really sort of done Kheldians a disservice, here." (I was also flat-out wrong on a couple of math things on the survivability sections, and have corrected that in the spreadsheets and the post).
Why have I done our alien archetypes a disservice? Because I didn't take our inherent into account when I did the spreadsheets, and as such they don't give an appropriate measure of the archetypes' damage potential when teamed, and when the archetypes are designed around teaming, that's a problem.
SOOOO I went back and plugged in some new numbers based on teams. Nothing weighted or averaged or anything like that; I just wanted to show what effect a team could have on damage/self mitigation scores. (never mind the extra survivability that comes, you know, from the team)
For purposes of my analysis I used a pretty well balanced team of three "damage" members(for example: a scrapper, a brute and a blaster) and three "mitigation" members (Like a tanker, a defender and a mastermind). For a seventh one let's use a kheldian. Because it really doesn't matter what the seventh one is for this.
Now, for Peacebringers and Warshades alike, this team makeup gives you a potential 60% damage boost and a potential 30% resistance (provided all members are within range)
So... plugging the numbers into the spreadsheets I have arrived at these two analyses:
Peacebringers
Warshades
The rundown:
PEACEBRINGERS
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 173.05
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 172.44
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 134.05
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 229.13
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 313.32
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 199.93
Self Mitigation
Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 135
Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 61
Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 403
WARSHADES
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 246.33
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 288.33
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 271.33
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 327.72
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 489.72
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 585.72
Self Mitigation
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 87.8
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 77.28
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 764
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 2351
See? See why we can't have nice things? See why the developers are so reticent to give us any more love than they have already?
No?
Well, just look at those damage numbers. I wonder how a damage archetype - say a scrapper - would do with an optimum attack chain on just SO's? If only there were some place I could go to find those numbers.
Oh, wait. There is.
Thanks to Bill Z Bubba and our friendly neighborhood scrappers, we have - in hard numbers - what the top scrapper and brute attack chains can produce on nothing but SO's.
When teamed with JUST THREE OTHER DAMAGE DEALERS, a warshade DWARF can out-dps the top dps dealer from either scrappers or brutes. A human form Peacebringer that's teamed with a tanker and two defenders, provided it can keep from being mezzed can also top brutes and scrappers in average performance. Throw in two controllers and mez isn't even a problem. A frickin' WHITE DWARF falls somewhere around the middle, and if there's three damage dealers is more survivable than any of them, to boot!
Scoff all you want, throw out all the anecdotes you want to disprove it, but our inherent is what's holding us back.
Wait, what? I know what you're thinking: "But Joe, our inherent makes us awesome! LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS! Well, maybe you're not thinking that, but I need to make a point, so just pretend you are. IT'S CALLED SOPHISTRY, PEOPLE! Work with me, here.
The argument could - and should, imho - be made that warshades don't even need their inherent. Even on SO's, a well-built warshade on a team (or with the right difficulty settings) can run around at the damage and resist caps a fair bit of time anyway. And what about Peacebringers? Peacebringers only wish they could do that, but I submit that the reason they can't is because of how crazy good they'd be on teams, due to the inherent.
You know what? Let me avail myself of the copy/paste function and remind you of what those solo numbers were:
PEACEBRINGERS
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 86.51
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 156.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 240.7
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 133.51
Self Mitigation
Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 81
Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 42
Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 153
WARSHADES
Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 189.08
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 212.08
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 198.08
AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 254.82
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 368.82
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 334.82
Self Mitigation
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 81
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 72
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 313
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 1426
EVEN SOLO, a warshade with the build contained in the spreadsheets (it's on the first page of each linked sheet, look for a yellow box called "BUILD") can out-damage a scrapper or a brute, given the right conditions. It's that "right conditions" caveat that's kept them from being nerfed I suspect, BUT the point remains that Kheldians do just fine on teams.
Peacebringers are out of balance with warshades and have some serious power synergy problems, but there you are.
So let's ask them to change the inherent.
I'm not talking about removing team-oriented buffs, just changing them to something else. Say, a proc buff ala the same code as some of the incarnate slots?
For example, what if Peacebringers got a damres debuff proc on their attacks with an increasing chance to fire for every defender/tanker/mastermind/corrupter on the team, and got a recharge proc for every scrapper/brute/blaster/stalker? Leave controllers/dominators and epic archetypes alone.
Conversely, what if Warshades got a negative enrgy damage proc for the damage a/t's and a stun or a slow proc for the buff a/t's?
With a proc effect verses a straight-up buff, there'd be a ceiling to our teaming inherent that would give them some wiggle room to give us (specifically, peacebringers) some much-needed attention.
But that's just one idea. My main point is that the inherent will have to change before any individual powers change with respect to giving us more damage or survivability.
What say you, Kheldians? Anyone agree, or am I crazy? Or both. I'm willing to 'fess up to a little nuttiness now and then.
Either way, I want to hear ideas for our inherent.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies