Let's look at our inherent!


Ashlocke

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
Are you one of those people who posts "LF Healerz" in broadcast?
Are you familiar with the term straw man argument?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irresponsible View Post
Are you familiar with the term straw man argument?

How is that applicable? You're equating the amount of h34lz to survivability. How is your saying that PB's are more survivable than Warshades because of how many heals they have any different than someone saying a traps defender sucks because it doesn't have any heals so it's not defending right? You're taking one tiny tool that can assist in survivability and using it to leverage your entire point, which is flat-out incorrect.


 

Posted

Well actually, if the pb has some teammates that can boost its resistances to 85%, then it should be more survivable than the warshade because of those extra heals. Its not at all impossible that Irresponsible has had these experiences on such teams.


The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
Well actually, if the pb has some teammates that can boost its resistances to 85%, then it should be more survivable than the warshade because of those extra heals. Its not at all impossible that Irresponsible has had these experiences on such teams.
Several points:

Cosmic Balance *can* make a peacebringer far more survivable than a warshade if it buffs resistance to the cap, however, it takes far fewer of the correct teammates for dark sustenance to bring a warshade to the cap for ALL damage, due to the fact that eclipse alone can cap resistance to all forms of damage including psionic. By contrast, a Peacebringer cannot reach the cap for psionic damage even with seven damage dealers. May not sound like much of a difference, but given the prevalence of psionic damage in late game and incarnate content it can even the odds quite a bit.

When are you taking the most damage? Ninety-nine percent of the time it's when you're surrounded by enemies. Enemies who usually die fairly easily. In those situations, Stygian Circle >>>>>>>than Essence Boost and Restore Essence combined. Unless you're soloing an av, Stygian Circle absolutely must be taken into account when comparing survivability.

The post-incarnate game has given players the power to pretty much do without any other archetype completely and still ace most of the content available. Given all this newfound power, it's not all that unusual for a peacebringer to find itself on a team without any support characters at all, and hence will have little to no boost to resistance to increase survivability. A Warshade, by contrast, doesn't really care.

So even if Irresponsible was talking about the inherent-boosted peacebringer being more survivable than a warshade because of the heals, that's only true in certain circumstances, and those circumstances are becoming increasingly rare with every change to the game. To make the blanket statement that heals make a Peacebringer more survivable than a Warshade because they don't need bodies is, well, irresponsible.

Besides which, I posted more than just damage numbers. The survival comparisons I did (which were done using Dechs' mitigation worksheets) came out HEAVILY in favor of the warshade. If someone disagrees with those numbers, they can prove them wrong numerically. Statements like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irresponsible
Just the fact that most Warshades I team with end up dying more quickly and more often than I do on my Peacebringer which is something I've noticed pretty consistently but then again that might be part of their strategy.
.....don't cut it.


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
To make the blanket statement that heals make a Peacebringer more survivable than a Warshade because they don't need bodies is, well, irresponsible.

I like every single part of your post but I felt like this particular line deserved to be quoted for sheer cleverness. Well done sir.


 

Posted

Actually, it's not at all impossible for the gameplay reality to not be measuring up to the theoretical numbers, for one reason or another. In fact it would probably be more noteworthy (and suspicious, IMO) if the numbers did match correctly all the time, because the theoretical numbers generally don't account for player tactics or player mistakes.

Warshades are fairly complex characters. They have better numbers, but they're relatively high-execution - they have more opportunities to make mistakes and those mistakes are going to hurt their performance more. Things like 'missed eclipses' or 'non full eclipses' are going to drag them down, and those kinds of things do happen in gameplay: say, you go in for an eclipse and someone else KB's the spawn away from you. How often does that sort of thing happen? I don't know, and can't think at the moment of a good way of estimating it either (where 'good' is defined as 'doesn't require datamining, is understandable by normal people, and isn't just pulled out of the posterior').

But I do know anecdotally that I see warshades dying plenty ingame, certainly more than their numbers would suggest (though I also see a lot of PBs dying more than I think they ought to, too). I generally am not observing them so I don't know why, and generally they are PUG members so I don't know their builds or players and can't speak to the strength (or weakness) of their skill or build. Maybe the game has simply become that lethal for characters who aren't at the defense softcap.


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector View Post
Actually, it's not at all impossible for the gameplay reality to not be measuring up to the theoretical numbers, for one reason or another. In fact it would probably be more noteworthy (and suspicious, IMO) if the numbers did match correctly all the time, because the theoretical numbers generally don't account for player tactics or player mistakes.
But we can't measure anecdote. That being said, we can weight the numbers, and I did.

Quote:
Warshades are fairly complex characters. They have better numbers, but they're relatively high-execution - they have more opportunities to make mistakes and those mistakes are going to hurt their performance more. Things like 'missed eclipses' or 'non full eclipses' are going to drag them down, and those kinds of things do happen in gameplay: say, you go in for an eclipse and someone else KB's the spawn away from you. How often does that sort of thing happen? I don't know, and can't think at the moment of a good way of estimating it either (where 'good' is defined as 'doesn't require datamining, is understandable by normal people, and isn't just pulled out of the posterior').
Not getting a fully saturated eclipse or mire has been accounted for as best as I could, by (where the mires are concerned) assuming a conservative 3 enemies hit on the mires and by posting numbers for one enemy hit by eclipse side-by-side with the numbers for ten enemies hit by eclipse. Feel free to compare either to the Peacebringer numbers on survivability.

Believe it or not, I was worried that people would say I was being too conservative with the Warshade numbers, given that I wasn't so conservative with the Peacebringer numbers.

There especially the numbers will likely favor maximum potential over actual performance. For one example (in contrast of a warshade's mire), I weighted build up with the expectation that a player would notice that build up had recharged and would drop to human and hit it immediately.

I also assumed the same for Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike, and I highly doubt a player in dwarf form in the middle of combat is going to notice that these powers recharged and will think to use them right away.

So yeah, the numbers are actually a bit skewed in favor of maximum performance for Peacebringers while erring on the conservative side for Warshades, and Peacebringers still fell far short.

Quote:
But I do know anecdotally that I see warshades dying plenty ingame, certainly more than their numbers would suggest (though I also see a lot of PBs dying more than I think they ought to, too). I generally am not observing them so I don't know why, and generally they are PUG members so I don't know their builds or players and can't speak to the strength (or weakness) of their skill or build. Maybe the game has simply become that lethal for characters who aren't at the defense softcap.
The problem with anecdote is that it relies on observation, and observations are more often than not skewed far more than any numbers will be. You may have seen warshades dying a lot in game, but you likely didn't see the circumstances of their death. For example, how many foes were they facing verses how many of the other team? Did they die by being stupid or were they surviving against the odds while the rest of the team took care of the stragglers? It might have seemed to you that everyone was contributing equally, but they might well have saved the team from a second spawn.

OR they may have just been stupid or fallen asleep at the keyboard. My point is that - unless you're somehow recording the game data to see what happened in retrospect, your point of view is restricted to what you see on your screen alone.

I suppose you could make the argument that gathering enough observations could point out trends and discrepancies in the numbers, but then that would bring us right back to depending on numbers on paper.


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

Well 'gathering observations' is called 'gathering data' and is a key part of the scientific method

But most of the time I'm not experimenting strictly with the game, I'm just playing it. And I admit my perception of how often people should die is skewed by my personal standards: I run some very capable and survivable characters. Mostly what I'm trying to say, though, is that I totally see where the other poster is coming from, I generally expect theoretical numbers to exceed what happens ingame even in 'average' or 'conservative' cases, and can think of a few reasonable explanations - including the already mentioned player skill based ones - for why it'd look that way.

Those things would be what I would experiment with and gather data on if I were interested enough to, which I'm not. But if someone is: in addition to trying to figure out how often average (not super-duper-quality) warshade players get partial eclipses, I've seen a few warshade players fairly consistently getting killed while trying to get an eclipse off to start with, in an NPC alpha strike. Figuring out how often that happens is probably not a waste of time. And finally, warshades and PBs don't have debuff protection or debuff avoidance from defense, and even if you've got good resistances and healing, those debuffs piling up can still drag you down pretty quickly - cascading defense failure applies to non-defense-based characters too. Getting the effects of debuffing nailed down might be enlightening in a lot of ways; personally I think NPC debuffs, in the volume they come at you in during 8 person content, are more dangerous than damage to the characters who should even be on that difficulty at all.

On a final note... I think on SO'd builds, NPC knockback is also a very serious and very underrated issue. You can Breakfree or dwarf out of other control. But if you're being KB'd you can't do anything until the animation finishes, BFs don't protect against it, and you can be 'juggled' - quite easily so, in fact, since many npcs get knockback attacks.


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Yes they do.
I'm pretty sure you can't use one while you're mid-animation, which is what I'm talking about - before you finish standing up from a KB/KD you can't do anything even if it's something that would break other control like dwarf or a BF. It's been a long time since I've had to deal with this though, cause the first thing I do on any new character who doesn't have it already is to get them a -KB IO.

However if you're hit by more KB while you're already in the animation, you can be juggled by it. I remember very clearly how I nearly quit the game in frustration from how often my defender was being chain-KB'd to death back in issue 3 (instead I just switched to playing a scrapper, heh).


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

Posted

Looking at the inherent and the buffs it allows, I'm unsure if the inherent is the entire problem or not a problem at all. Pushing aside the issues of mez resistance and wonky power designs for the moment, it could be that a Kheldian's "out of the box" performance relying on teams is more of a good thing.

To extrapolate, the two biggest problems I see in relation to Kheldians are "Soloability" and "High end contribution." While the former speaks for itself, the latter is something to expand upon. As is shown by the DPS with a "kitted out" Kheldian, Khelds don't really improve worth a hill of beans, nor do they bring anything major to the table assuming a fully stacked or even slightly balanced group. Assuming this as an optimal situation, it's kinda hard to put a Kheldian side by side with, say, a high end scrapper and not immediately feel that the scrapper is better in every way. I feel that nerfing the inherent or baking it into the power won't do anything here but solve the first problem without bothering to address the second. After all, dominators still use domination to augment their controlling and vigilance still helps the defenders end usage to allow each to have a given role.

If I may say so, after looking at these numbers I'd be willing to say that Khelds' inherent really brings uniqueness to the class much like Fury does to a brute. Because of this, I think that changing the inherent to retain uniqueness while attempting to maintain the same numbers is the smartest move, in my mind. Likewise, I think that using the inherent as a base rewards Kheldians for taking both "paths" in IOs (recharge or softcap) and should be retained as best as possible.

In light of that, I like the earlier mentioned idea to half the cosmic balance buff, bake it into the Kheld's powers, then make Cosmic Balance return to the team. This gives Khelds a semi unique role (jacks with support) and makes a good starting point to allow further analysis into the power. For example, PB forms could grant a certain buff to the team and the PB (Nova for damage, human for mez protect, lobster for resist) which stacks with Cosmic Balance. Warshades could be given a Gauntlet ability where attacks in a certain form likewise grant debuffs (Nova -res, Human -rech, Lobsters -damage). These are obviously starting points, but as I mentioned earlier, it's best to identify what Kheldians are right now and what they should be, then work design changes to reach that paradigm and remove the glass ceiling they have now.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireheart View Post
Umm, issue 21 is not 'The Coming Storm'. In fact, in a Non-Ouroboros mission, I don't believe we can or will experience the so-called 'Coming Storm'. It's possible that our one previous (and scheduled future) Shivan meteor assault event are precursors, but there's nothing I know of that indicates that the Shivans are the 'Coming Storm'.

Sorry, the Apocalypse is not on the calendar.

Be Well!
Fireheart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnt5...ature=youtu.be

Yes, it is.


"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.

"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.