ChickenChow

The same way Hasten makes SiphonSpeed irrelevant?

[ QUOTE ]
Elec deals ALL energy damage. AR deals lethal/smsh, energy deals half S/L and half energy. Elec does more effective damage because it's damage type is by far less resisted across all viliian types. AT first glance on paper, it doesn't look as good. In practice it's a powerhouse

[/ QUOTE ]
Fire is all Fire damage (surprisingly) and one of AR's biggest hitters is Flame Thrower. Fire damage isn't usually any more resisted than Energy. In my experience plenty of stuff resists energy damage aswell...

If Elec was a powerhouse, you'd see lots of guides for it and it's be FotM. Instead everyone spends their time talking about Fire, Energy, AR and Ice. There's more attention on the /Elec secondary than there is on the Elec/ primary. One of the things people talk about on the Blaster boards when they recommend Elec/ is that you'll be unique and special. It's not a commen set to take.

And that's because there's nothing special there. There's no third blast and there's no exceptional AE. It's just sort of in the middle and instead gets a funky ghetto pet and a Hold. The pet is widely disliked and everyone has access to a hold power at 41. There's just nothing to make you look at it and say "Wow!"

[ QUOTE ]
I have an electric blaster. I've never felt the lack board folks talk about. I've always thought that particular stigma was just one of those evolved pieces of Conventional Board Wisdom (TM) that doesn't match all that closely to reality.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look closer.

The only two sets missing a third single target are Elec and AR. AR makes the trade off by getting some nice AoE attacks. Elec's AE attacks are only better than Energy and Ice... both of which have some groovy attacks. The only really attractive thing about the set is Short Circuit, and to get any use out of it you have to totally gimp your AE damage.

Elec Primary is kind of middle of the road. It can AE, but it's not good at it. It can zap a single guy, but it's not real good at it. The only really good thing is the drain, and if you want to play with that then you're probably better off making a Defender.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're using Thunderous Blast, shouldn't the proper comparison be to an Electrical Blaster?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dunno... maybe. Elec/ is considered the Psi of Blasters though... it's their worst set. Funny that it's one of the better ones for Defenders.

I figured since we were talking about massive AE damage then an AE Blaster set would be the best thing to compare it too. Both AR and Fire can match your nuke every 10 seconds or so. AR can actually do even better with Full Auto and it's crit ticks. Need to take something other than Devices for Build Up though.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think that no one will care because controllers can do it all better think again. Fulcrum shifted nuke/nova/blackstar is a sight to behold.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's really not that impressive. It just SEEMS impressive because you're used to your attacks sucking all the time.

It takes me 4 seconds to animate Thunderous Blast. In that time a Fire Blaster can FireBall/FireBreath. I'll get ~37 brawls (55.556 * 0.666 = Blaster Damage) if all three ticks hit, and he'll get 29.5 brawls. That's 80% of my damage and he can do it every 10 seconds. If I get any less than 3 ticks we're doing the same damage.

Is it a "sight to behold" whenever a Fire Blaster runs into a group and decimates it? No. It's expected. The only reason it seems cool when a Defender does it is because the rest of the time your damage is a bit sad.

[ QUOTE ]
The Defender's powers focus on healing allies, increasing their buffing bilities and decreasing foes' debuffing abilities. The Defender has little offensive or defensive punch of his own, but can radically increase the effectiveness of even the smallest team up, and he and the blaster have the only ranged attacks.

The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though soloing is possible. Difficult, but possible. However, the tremendous usefulness of Defenders' powers should guarantee that they will always be able to find a team up to adventure with.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you want to work from the manual... then that last part means Defenders are broken. In the current state of the game your powers are not always useful.

Heh, imagine telling a FF Defender that they were always be tremendously useful. What with all the auto-hits, psi, and knockback immune mobs floating around.

By the definition in the manual, Defenders are broken.

The Manual says a lot of things too. Like that Controllers need to be extremely cautious when they're solo, and that Tankers are slow soloers (A decently slotted Tanker can CRUSH the offensive punch of a Defender). It's all BS and wasn't even accurate when the game came out.

[ QUOTE ]
The response CAN NOT be to bring other ATs down to the solo level of Defenders. Nor can it be to bring Defenders solo levels up to the other ATs. Because in either case, there'd be no point in playing anything other than a Defender (except possibly a Controller, just to hold AVs).

[/ QUOTE ]
I really doubt it's going to swing that heavily. As is... there's no reason to play a Defender other than Dark. Everything you wanted to do you could do as a Controller. Everything. If you pick the right primary, you'll even do more damage. Even Mind Controllers can AE. Plus, when you're solo half your powers won't become useless. It's Win-Win.

If you gave Defenders the ability to buff themselves, it'd change very little about the game. Only three primaries in one AT would be affected. Being able to self Fort/CM, SB/ID, and bubble would actually make you MORE useful to a team because they could stop worrying about you dying or being mezzed all the time. You'd get three uber defense Blasters with lame damage. Hell, with perma-PowerBoost Blasters can get those kind of defenses already and it sure didn't make them overpowered.

[ QUOTE ]
That's called being an Empath (or FF Defender). If you don't like the way they work, avoid grouping with them.
.
I'm sure, speaking as someone whose played an Empath, they'll be thrilled not to be grouping with someone with your attitude as to their role in groups.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry if I expect my Empaths to be more than an Inspiration.

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like he was doing what all Empaths do. Buff and heal. He even said he was healing and buffing. Maybe you call that a buffbot but that sound exactly like what Empaths do.

[/ QUOTE ]
He wasn't doing anything other than buffing and healing. If that's not being a buffbot... what is?

So then you were playing buffbot for no reason and managed to die? uhhh... Well done?

And that's got to be the worst example of why Defenders are fine I've ever heard in all the time I've been reading these boards. What it's telling you is that if you want to be a slave to your group and follow them around like a puppy while they accomplish things, you can do that as a Defender... so long as you're an Empath or ForceFielder. A Kinetics, Rad, Dark or Storm in the same situation would've been worthless. What a great premise for an AT.

edit: Oh and by the way... a /Emp Controller could've done exactly the same thing.

So while playing buffbot and getting PL'd you didn't manage to die?

Well done.

Before you get your heart set on the "It's only people that ignore their secondary complaining" idea... I suggest you click the link in the bottom of Erratic's sig.

[ QUOTE ]
The tar patches by themselves are really enough, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kind of makes the whole "omg defender synergy!" thing a bit suspect though.

This is the same thing as the Range=Defense crap the Blasters deal with. Range isn't a Blaster's Strength... Melee is their weakness.

Grouping isn't really a Defender's strength... soloing is their weakness.

[ QUOTE ]
+4 mobs? Since when? You might be able to affect them, but I seriously doubt "floor" their accuracy/damage by yourself at +4.

[/ QUOTE ]
The math has been done many times. You can get something like 300% -ToHit on your own between your powers and Fluffies. I'm not making it up. And like I said, by the 3rd or 4th Dark you're adding almost nothing. Two DNs is -75% damage, and all the mobs will be at 5% ToHit. Other than the Tar Patches, there's not a lot to add to that...

[ QUOTE ]
For darks, in addition to tar patch 8 times over(doing 340% total dmg, not base dmg)
Shadowfall x8, its defense and resist stack togother
not to mention anywhere between 8 & 24 Dark Servants running about
Darkest Night, totally gimping mobs accuracy and dmg output to miniscule numbers

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You forget the 8 X Darkest Night (ie. 10% damage (the minimum) and a *whopping* 640% accuracy debuff.)

[/ QUOTE ]
A single Dark Defender is already capable of flooring accuracy and damage on +4 mobs. Because of the purple patch it's not really worth fighting above that level. A second Dark Defender adds a bit... but by the 4th or 5th, you're just getting a ghetto Blaster with holds.

[ QUOTE ]
that is an all defender team's effectiveness is greater than the sum of the parts

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason it's greater than the sum of it's parts is because a Defender doesn't get to use all of their parts.

Go through and check out how many powers a Defender has that can't be used without a team mate. A really basic example is comparing Emp and Dark. An Empath on their own can't really do anything cool, but with 8 of them in a team it gets really powerful. Lots of +Def... great status resists... +recovery... +recharge... the whole lot! On the other hand, the only thing a team of 8 Darks can really offer over a lone Dark is the stacked bonuses from Tar Patch. It's not syngery... it's dependance.

So while you may think AM is a classic example, I would say AM is the exception.

[ QUOTE ]
Breakfrees leave you immune for a period don't they? Have you ever had to pop multiple of them in a few seconds?

[/ QUOTE ]
I regularly get held through 2-3 Break Frees. It's almost to the point where I don't bother with them unless it's an emergency. I'm just going to get held again 2 seconds later.

[ QUOTE ]
That's a GREAT idea! While we're at it, could you put Psi protection into Invulnerability?

Holes exist in powersets on purpose. Nothing is perfect, everyone needs help with something. Maybe it's funny that two INVs used a Blaster with PFF to tank the Psychic Clockwork King. . . the Blaster thought it was, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Were you not listening when I said my DM/Invul defeated Mother Mayhem solo? No heals. No buffs. No debuffs.

If your Invul tankers weren't such pansies they'd eat 4-5 Lucks and go at it. With a good team the fight is over before they even wear off (1 minute... yay for Break Free disparity!)

[ QUOTE ]
So do you think you could pull the same trick with the clockwork king or mother mayham?

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't try the CWK... but yes I defeated Mother Mayhem on my own.

3 Large Kora Purples = Defender.

[ QUOTE ]
Chickenchow, just so we're all clear here, you did the entire infernal mish solo, with this being a even level or + mish, and took down Inferno by yourself in 3.5 minutes, I have a regen as well, I'm quite interested how inferno and his posse managed not to overcome your regen rate, w/o anyone else there to provide crowd control or shotting down the portal of never ending behomoths. Also how you managed to get in that much dmg that quickly w/o being slowed down by his regen rate.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, part of that is easy. I'm DM/Invul... not Regen.

I went in and beat up whatever was between me and Infernal's room. Then I aggro'd Infernal and everything else before stepping back to the enterance of his room. Minions streamed out of the portal and Infernal impressed me with his halitosis. They all stood around me at the door providing crazy +def and making me untouchable. With SoulDrain I maintained my damage cap for those 3.5 minutes and easily over-came his regen. He might even have a Negative Energy vulnerability... either that or Smash resist. I didn't really bother to find out.

And he was only +1. I tend towards Unyielding rather than Invinc.

[ QUOTE ]
As to any additional form of damage, I would be highly surprised to find that a tanker and, say, a lone blaster took down one of the more serious AVs. It's possible that they could, but I would be surprised by it, and I would be inclined to say that it's not the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]
This may come as news to you, but Tankers can solo the more serious AVs. They don't even need the Blaster.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I'm assuming that by "heals" you mean "heals and defenses", since anyone with your experience would know the mantra "defenders do more than heal" by heart already. I'm just spelling it out for the peanut gallery.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I still think in the Kinetic mindset where I don't have any defenses...

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't invalidate the point. In the second example omitted from the quote, a tanker and I took down Infernal by ourselves staying in the green the whole time. A controller might be able to do the same thing with rad or kin, but a blaster, scrapper or another tanker ain't gonna.

[/ QUOTE ]
I bet they could.

Your Tanker is already nigh invulnerable. They don't need your heals. Any form of additional damage will destroy an AV. Personally, my Scrapper has defeated I4 Infernal alone in less than 3.5 minutes.

-Regen is really good. I can probably solo a Hive Monster (Quarry) with it... but you're not really impressing me with your examples.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually. this is untrue. My friend was running her 47 fire/kin against Marauder to see if she could solo him. Well, Marauder waxed her big time. So she sidekicked up my mid-20s D3 and we went against him as a duo. I put Twilight Grasp on autofire, did the rest of my schtick, and the two of us killed him painlessly in a few minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Transfusion does -regen too. Fire/Kin should be able to solo him without too much trouble. Your Controller friend just isn't creative enough.

I'd also make that trade. Even if it was an Ice Tanker.

If I could self SB I'd drop Hasten and go with a SB/SS combo for my haste. Those slots would go into SB itself so I could have wikid endurance recovery.

I'd rather let Empaths have ClearMind, Fortitude and AdrenalineBoost as self targets. HealOther should just be HealOther and stay that way. I'd also nerf AB back to it's original 0.5 +rchg rather than the 1.0 +rchg it has now.

On yourself you'd get unlimited endurance, great regen, great +recharge, great defense, good accuracy and a little less than an SO worth of +dmg. You could even make a pretty decent solo build out of it with Fort, CM, AB all designed to be up and on yourself 100% of the time. Stacking those with Assault, Tactics and Maneuvers... and 6 slotting for damage...

+67% def, 343% damage (+228% if you're a Blaster), +62.5% ToHit, +50% haste, and your +regen/+recovery would be dependant on how you had AB and your RAs set up.

That's pretty much an SR Scrapper without the endurance problems and no Elude... also with ~300 less HP and a bit less damage. Considering the Devs have said they don't think SR is up to par... this really shouldn't be considered over-powered. Slot costs are also pretty steep if you want all that, AND a few slotted attacks, AND slots for your heals.

Blasters would need fixing though. Maybe we should give them access to Controller Primaries at 80% effectiveness eh?

What's the huge difference between that and how Dark is now? All you're doing is swapping your massive -90% damage for some really good +regen and +recovery.

Running the numbers... it's really not that impressive. It's sort of like SR + Regen with much less HP and much less damage.