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Gone also are the days of random pick up teams, at least for me. I used to pick up the odd team and risk it knowing that if things went south I could handle the aggro. Now I won't risk a team with out knowing the players.
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This is actually an important point.
Many's the time pre-I5 that Liberty Lass stood there and tanked a large group (taking damage but able to hold them off) while the rest of the team rezed and healed and came back into the fight. There's no chance she could do that now.
She still refuses to run, but she does a faceplant 3 seconds after the rest of the team.
F
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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OK had to reply to this one. Im sry Jack but you are wrong a skilled tanker cant contol mobs fine anymore! Why because you can only hold the aggro of 2 groups. And sence i am still seeing lots of cases of triple spawns in tunnels and buildings, that would make it hard to protect your group. Can a tanker still servive large groups. yep no problem in fact i havent changed my build and i can still herd +2 groups with no problem and i can do up to 4 groups and survive, no insp's nothing, thats not a problem. I know what your saying well if you cant aggro more than 2 how? That is were the skill comes in 
)The problem is that i can use my grav/ff controller and lock everything down in 2 groups and make a 3rd no worry tell the we are ready for them, so give me a healer, scrappers or blasters and what need is there for a tank.
O ya and people one thing to let you know, his test is faulty. He used a Inv/ Fire tank and it has the most AoE attacks and Inv prob had taunt in it? and if you cant lock a group down with that tank you dont deserve to play a tank. not a good representation of tanks as a whole.
So now to answer the question of this thread.
Well the rule i would say is 5 slot on defences. i am going to test a new build for my inv tanks (just move the slots around a bit, to fit the 5 rule) and i think there will be no problems for my tanks. Ice well i cant say much about them the 2 that i have played never made it past lvl 8 because the were so weak compared to the other tanks it just wasnt worth it.
I do have a friend that is tring out this rule with his tank and dosen't seem to be having any problems. But most of the testing has been solo or with me and my tank so hard to tell how well will work in a group but i dont expect any change in control for us (but no braging we are both very good at tanks).
But the problem that still remains is that the number of people on the servers has dropped so badly that it is next to imposable to find a team. So even if you build a tank and do learn how to play it, Which is unlikely because there is very few experianced players left playing to teach them and to show them how to play and how a tank can be. Most will just quit because they are going to build how ED tells them to, and will spend most of there time in the hospital along with there group.
Finally i will say this i have noticed a trend and if you want a toon that is playable and is still fairly fun to play in CoH then see what Jack is testing and most likely that will be one of the most powerful builds. ( he is board with Statesman that is why inv is taking the hit it is). I started a grav/ff controller when i found out Jack was playing a grav controller and you know what she KICK A and takes name.
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
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SpiritWraith, can a Stone tank hit DR cap solo with his powers as they are now including the Fighting Pool but not counting Granite Armor?
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Not a numbers guy here, so honestly not sure. You'd be going stone skin, rock armor, tough, and sufficiently slotted maybe, but honestly I doubt it. The analysis I have seen done so far is that Pre Granite, Stone is worse off than Invulnerability, but post Granite their "glory" remains.
Don't know what to say abou the how often will you die question. I'd probably say less often, because it is easier to slowly grind down bosses, but the xp over time is so much less as a tanker that the Scrapper is far and away the better deal (but then, it is the "solo" AT).
In a team, I find that my stone tank pre Granite dies a lot MORE often than my scrappers, mainly because of rooted. When a stone tank gets into a fight, getting out is tricky, especially since teleport isn't very user friendly indoors, assuming you took teleport at all).
Post Granite of course, you are a the aggro magnet wall, and I have taunt, provoke, and pots to maximize my aggro drawing abilities. With the new cap, I'm just not sure what my best model is for drawing aggro.
Solo though, while I can handle invinicible, as a Stone/Ice, it takes forever to arrest bosses. I can live with that, since my character really is designed for a duo with a Kheldian. Blasters of course love me now too, but my uber defensiveness has a price, and the main price is a huge degradation in solo capability.
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Not even close as I recall the numbers are as follows:
Rock armor bas 16% def + 3 even SOs = c. 26% def
Stone skin base 12.5% res + 3 even SOs = c. 20% res
Tough base 15% res + 3 even SOs = c 24% res
You can add weave to the def, but you're looking at c. 44% res and some defence. Just doesn't compare to granite, ED has really removed the option to play a stone tank without granite (unless you have something like ice patch, and even then it's very marginal), as one of my disillusioned friends has discovered and more or less retired his 38 stone/ice.
My real beef is that granite gimps my move, and now I can't offset it sensibly with more than 3 slot swift.
Mr Minotaur 50 stone/axe tank Freedom
and 60+ others including 2 other 50s
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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The test that Statesman ran showed that while an INV can help in a large-team mission, he is in perhaps an unacceptible amount of danger, and would probably have much more trouble if either he did not have Dull Pain or if the DEF from Invincibility was reduced.
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My problem is that the test is skewed and he knows it - Invincibility is broken, and he's not yet given a fair announcement about it to the masses. And its going on close to two weeks since he notified me that it was broken in exactly the way I stated it was broken, though providing more of a bonus than I had thought.
He was getting, assuming 3 slotted for DEF and even level SOs, avout 7% DEF per mob that surrounded him. Figuring his 1/3 of that mob he had around 6 or 7 mobs on him, which means he was getting about 42% or 49% DEF total plus the @2.5% you net with Tough Hide less Unyielding penalty.
If Invinc were working properly he'd be at 14% or 16.4% +2.5%.
So he'd have been getting hit much more, taking much more damage, and considering he was riding at 1/3 health several times, you can consider that each of those times he would have been more than likely dead had his defense been where its intended to be.
So I personally find his test, and his portrayal of it to be a bit ludicrous. Which is why I can't take it seriously.
Broomhilda, good points all. However, the numbers on the servers, (counting CoV) are now 30-40% higher than they were prior to the first of November.
It is probably a combination of folks moving over to CoV, plus the perceived undesirability of tanks (true or false) that is causing your problems with teaming, rather than any drop off in total players.
Note: As of 9pm Central time, on three servers I checked, 2/3 of the people were playing CoV, but the total was up about 40% from pre November 1. This would seem to indicate that population on the CoH servers are down about 50% since CoV came in, but there are twice as many people playing CoV as CoH.
This would lead me to estimate the total number of subscriptions right now for both games to be in the 210k region.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
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so what you're saying is that a team should only be taking 3 even level minions at a time right? and the tank should barely be able to survive said 3 minions.
lovely.
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I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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ok and here you're saying we should run and hide from anything besides smashin/lethal damage and let the team fend for themselves.
oh and dull pain is required in our builds as well yes?
I know i'm reading way to deep.
however. so much for the brave and fierce legions of tankers.
enter the mediocre brutes.
perhaps we could rename the archtype Gelding or Whipping Boy so that its more in line with 'teh vizion'.
original responce was a string of vulgarities that would make a sailor attack me with a bar of soap for my mouth.
the politest responce i can think of for this is simply this:
Thank you for your responce Statesman. now i can delete my tanks guilt free to make room for more viable and fun characters.
I guess sometimes it's just better not to ask, eh?
I've figured that this is what it was all along, even as far back as when I started my tank 15 months ago.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
The thing that gets me about Jack's post is that he choose the target based on what damage his build could take.
Now when I was a tank, I would go after what was going to do the most damage to the team or what was strategically the most important to take out.
SO from now on I will tell my teams --- if I ever log into my tank again -- I can only tank X because Jack has designed me that way.
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Interestingly enough with extreme support (say a sonic defender and a FF defender) I wonder if my Blaster wouldn't make the best tank. Ice Storm and Frost Breath and you got more than five mobs ticked at you in seconds. If you really have some good support why not just Blizzard to kill the minions and then tank the Bosses and stray Lts.
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Problem with ice storm is it makes mobs scatter. Even with 3 slow SOs, plenty can still move decently, especially if higher level than you.
I've got a pair of AE blappers, one is ice/fire manip. The cone factor of breath is a big downside. Ice storm is used to finish off wounded mobs, inspire some fear, after the other AEs. The other is elect/fire manip. Better route to go. No cones, 2 applications of short circuit shut most mobs down. Both work better with a tank in the mix though...with that much AE fire power...tank to snag aggro and draw the mobs a bit closer to each other and then you let go with the AEs.
But if you're looking at tanking with extreme support, well, why not just get a tanker? Higher starting defense means you won't need extreme support and the taunt factor means everyone can unleash...barring AE knockbackers in certain situations, of course.
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Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
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As others have mentioned, that doesn't work. If everyone eliminates their opposition, that leaves 3 minions for the tanker. Which means either A: the tanker should be tanking a large chunk of the mobs while the others do their thing (which would include control from the controllers) or B: the tanker needs to hit harder so his 3 are dead too.
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End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
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I'd have to agree with the not familiar aspect. Team like that should be able to mow through stuff, even carnies. Of course, it'd take a bit different team play. The earth controller should be the first player to do bad things to CoS, assuming the mission was indoors.
And the peacebringer probably thought he was grouping with a tank, not a scranker 
Really, with kinetics in the mix, combustion, FSC, short circuit, ball lightning, plus whatever the peacebringer had should have had most of the baddies dead right quick.
Personally though, my biggest problem with State's post is that he was targetting that which hurt him the least. Now, that's smart game play, nothing wrong with that, although, like others here, as a person with a tank mentality (to protect and not get served) I don't want that which hurts me the least, but rather that which hurts others the most.
I don't want to be a summertime tank, who can only tank some of the time, only some of the mobs. Give me defenses to hang against anything. Not I'm a god and don't need any help defenses (especially not with granite's penalties), but I'm tough and my primary is worthwhile for more than just its taunt aura.
Jack is not and never will be a tanker. He can't even comprehend what the term means because there is no willingness to protect the team just take on anything he thinks he can survive.
The example is a joke because he doesn't go after anything that is a risk to him unless someone else has it aggroed. He isn't even a scranker because a Scranker walks up to the biggest baddest thing in the group and throws down.
So What is Statesman?
A cowardly opportunist being powerleveled by his team doing as little as possible to scrape by.
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We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Well it does open eyes on tanker roles. We are sudposed to strive to be cowards that take dmg only after the "weaker classes" do. We do not lead the charge or take the alpha. We rely on controllers and defenders because we have been stripped of our pride, concept, and power.
Manticore should have left Statesman dead so he can be remembered as the hero as he used to be not the coward Jack has turned him into.
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Poster: MrYukon
.
original responce was a string of vulgarities that would make a sailor attack me with a bar of soap for my mouth.
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Why waste vulgarities on a coward?
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
2 Defenders is considered Extreme Support? 
I'd call it par for the course. I think his point, which you missed is if those two defenders can make the entire team into psuedo tanks what would you need a tanker for? What does a tanker bring to a group that a group would desire?
According to Statesman himself the answer is Hitpoints. There are few occasions where those extra HP are going to be such an advantage as to warrant having a tanker on the team. Situations such as AV fights to absorb the alpha and hard hits. After that the team could do just as well with the tanker face down in the dirt the rest of the fight.
Did the devs make a mistake be having an AT in the game with a Defensive Primary? I think the evidence certainly weighs on the side of yes as far as the devs are concerned. So instead of just putting tanks out to pasture so to speak I'd rather they just retrofitted tankers with more Brute like qualities.
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You wanna know why Tanks don't work in PvP? It's because they don't really work in PvE.
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My experience in PvP has been very different from yours. It's fun to have 4/5 people wailing on you unable to bring you down (even got tells of "wow you've taken a lot of damage!"). The trick is to know when to use your inspirations and the unstoppable panic button.
I wouldn't make definitive comments based on personal experience only Foo.
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Why would I start playing a Tank now? Can't a Scrapper get enough aggro to "tank" on the terms Statesman outlines above?
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On those terms, any AT can get enough aggro but none can stand it like a tank. Scrappers go down waaay faster than our beloved AT's in I6. I've seen it enough times now. The difference in the defense department is bordering on brutal, for better or for worse.
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Heck, give it an issue and I'll just port my Brute over from CoV and he can do everything a Tank reasonably can be expected to do, plus I get to do more damage!
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I know you always wanted to take secondary powers first foo, that's why you're so in love with brutes! 
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There's no reason I can find to play a Tank anymore, aside from stubborness, ignorance, masochism, or lack of access to CoV.
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Not really. If someone wants to fight close and personal and be very resilient, I would recommend making a tank over ANY AT any day.
Not everyone saw Issue 3/4 tanks to know what they missed.
A quick note:
I have noticed those of us who continue to actually Tank and have posted our positive thoughts here have been ignored. I also find it strange that most of them have been Icers . . . or new players.
My viewpoint on this:
Alot of people are looking at what they *could* do in the unbalanced days of yore ( I played an INV tanker from the last bit of beta to I3, so I do not speak out of my butt there ) instead of working out how to do the job that needs to be done now. Those of us either working with tools that are weaker ( Ice Armor ) or those who do not have pre-I5 conceptions seem to have minimal problems. And if someone using the agreed upon wost set for the job can do it, then obviously, the other sets MUST be capable of Tanking for large teams and other situations.
Though doubtlessly I will be flamed and called a troll, this really is just an honest observation. I also doubt few if anyone will consider this and possibly see the potential truth of said observation. The one thing I am sure of is that this is my one and only word on the subject past my initial post (which got overrun by Statesman's well-intentioned but not very well put together post :P ). Hope it helps some.
I'm not so much looking at what I could do in the past, as I have certain expectations of "Invulnerability." I can still get by with my stone (non-granite unless they change the crappy transformation to at least match the size of the character) and fire tankers even though I may not be etirely happy with them. Pre-I5 I wasn't entirely happy with Invulnerability (the glowieness and toggle-management annoyed me conceptually) but at least I felt more like an Invulnerable character and less like Just-slightly-tough Guy. Now, a fight with two yellow Tsoo bosses leaves me running for the hills in the red - with three resist Inspirations and one big Luck used and Dull Pain as well. Huzzah.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Your statements about Tanks being best in the game at handling the initial stike and managing aggro better then anyone in the game is accurate but only to a small degree. Yes HP is noticeably better. I would argue that damage mitigation compared to Scrappers using Invul, DA and possibly Regen (Regen to a more limited extent these days) differs only by a small relative margin. I'll use Dark/dark scrapper. I ran some ED numbers while rebuilding my Dark/Dark lvl 49 scrapper and my Invul/SS lvl 50 tanker. (I have the notes around here somewhere with more accurate numbers if you want exact, but this is a little bit of 'ballparking' from memory)
Invul tank can cap S/L damage reduc to 90% or get real close with Tough, TI and Unyielding.
Energy, Elements using passives and Unyielding come in around 30% damage reduc give or take and of course no psi.
Dark Armor S/L using Tough is around 65%, Energy, Elements around 38%+ and Psi and Dark Energy at least 60%. I think Psi will go to scrapper cap of 75%.
Now I realize this doesn't take into account Invincibility giving def or Unstoppable (which is situational at best and frankly if you are using Unstoppable and other lvl 32 tank powers as your justification for saying they are "best at what they do"... well just stoppable please, especially invul because I'm using it in this example) but realize that, using DA as further example, also gains some def and enemy ToHit Debuff from other powers as well which are arguably as good as Invul (Cloak of Fear and such and their stealth power and to nitpick Opressive Gloom can be damage mitigating too).
DA has 1 more core toggle for damage reduc and less HP. This all sounds very balanced but in the end DA scrapper is moving faster through enemies and *nearly* as safely. with a Provoke and/or Death Shroud thrown in, they can help manage aggro.
I guess based on numbers and the experience of playing an Invul tank to 50 and a DA scrapper to 49.. I don't see a compelling reason to take a tank anymore. Even if you did something unpopular like nerf DA to compensate, it would have to be a huge powerset breaking nerf to still make tanks look more desireable and that would honestly be very wrong at this stage.
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Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
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Statesman! Gah! And was that the "let's make it sound as fun as we can" version!?
Pure player-of-Cycloid opinion follows:
I don't want a melee fighter who is inherently inferior to the Scrapper and quite possibly all other Archetypes except for his ability to "take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough" for the rest of the team to do something that feels fun and superheroic for them. "Short-term meatshield/yeller of insults" is, I firmly believe, not what you wanted for the Tanker, either.
I DO want the other side of the coin from the Scrapper: an effective melee fighter Archetype who is the king of staying alive, as the Scrapper is the king of melee damage.
Does this mean Tankers might sometimes be able to solo as effectively as Scrappers, or even to solo tougher targets at a *significantly* slower pace dependent on slotting? Yes. That's OK. Defensive primary! That's special!
Tanker defensive primaries should be notable and special in PvP and PvE, allowing Tankers a kind of toughness no other hero can approach. Right now, this just isn't so. The base numbers are sometimes just too low, Enhancement Diversification has taken away most decisions about how to customize the powers and led to much heavier slotting of secondaries, Endurance costs cut into effectiveness in other roles. Minimized primary, minimized Archetype; the combined effect has cut into the playability, usefulness and fun of Tankers.
These days, the Tanker is being defined by his HP and Gauntlet, because that's all he needs for the short-term meatshield role you described. The Archetype deserves better. More effective primaries with special characteristics (e.g...random ideas...toggles that don't drop as easily as those of other Archetypes, clearly superior performance to Scrapper secondaries as is lacking with, say, Invuln vs. Regen or especially Ice vs. Super Reflexes, *something*) are needed to define and give life, dimension and *fun* to the role of the Tanker.
Blaster Defiance, Controller Containment: these are examples of pretty good ideas with pretty good implementation. They feel comic-booky and make it interesting and *rewarding* to play those kinds of Heroes differently than the others. The Tanker AT has not got anything like this right now, and the players are feeling it, particularly with increasing PvP content showing them just how they don't matter.
Define the Tanker role as something fun and highly distinct.
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I'm not so much looking at what I could do in the past, as I have certain expectations of "Invulnerability." I can still get by with my stone (non-granite unless they change the crappy transformation to at least match the size of the character) and fire tankers even though I may not be etirely happy with them. Pre-I5 I wasn't entirely happy with Invulnerability (the glowieness and toggle-management annoyed me conceptually) but at least I felt more like an Invulnerable character and less like Just-slightly-tough Guy. Now, a fight with two yellow Tsoo bosses leaves me running for the hills in the red - with three resist Inspirations and one big Luck used and Dull Pain as well. Huzzah.
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This is actually the point of the change. A yellow boss is supposed to be tougher than a player. A player shouldn't be able to easily fight 2 at once period. The fact that anyone sees is it as an expectation shows that the game was broken.
The observation that the Devs regret creating Tanks is sort of a given. I believe they regret creating Tanks and Empaths as both made it hard to balance everything else. The recent changes were required to keep their builds from hitting numbers that unbalanced them compared to everyone else. Also the Devs did design the game with the idea that one person would become "invincible" draw all the aggro while another would build their character to do nothing but heal while the rest of the team did damage. They expected 8 balanced characters.
They are now trying to "force" that on players because otherwise they can't design new content and make it balanced both for teams with the Tank/Empath structure and any other structure. PvP just made the whole thing worse. A Tank/Empath team might well be unbeatable (straight up anyway) by a CoV team. Only hope for villains would be for a Stalker to take out the Empath just as his team strikes LOL. If it turned out to be true something like that could KILL PvP very fast.
A lot of money is invested in CoV and PvP. Accept it. Accept that the role of Tanks has changed and try to work with it. That doesn't mean that the last word has been spoken but it does mean that flaming States won't change anything. You'll just be ignored like all flamers are.
The Devs are in a hard spot they don't want to kill Tanks any more than the players do but they have to look at the money side of things too. If you can suggest how to make Tanks work better while maintaining the balance they are now trying to achieve, this is the time to speak up.
CoH has changed and you have to go slower and fight lower level groups of mobs. That doesn't mean the game doesn't work it just means you play the game differently.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Alot of people are looking at what they *could* do in the unbalanced days of yore ( I played an INV tanker from the last bit of beta to I3, so I do not speak out of my butt there ) instead of working out how to do the job that needs to be done now. Those of us either working with tools that are weaker ( Ice Armor ) or those who do not have pre-I5 conceptions seem to have minimal problems. And if someone using the agreed upon wost set for the job can do it, then obviously, the other sets MUST be capable of Tanking for large teams and other situations.
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You make the same mistake a lot of people tend to make here. It's not a matter of being used to pre I5 conditions. It's not a matter of not being as uber anymore. It is all about the question of whether our primaries are good enough for us to actually excel at a role. The contention here is that it is not. We are valued more for our inherent HP and cap glut than our primaries. Many of us find this unpalatable.
(Also Ice is not the weakest Tanker primary defensively. Fire is for most situations. "board wisdom" just hasn't cottoned onto it yet)
Both my tankers are invuln. That has left me with a 15% reduction in everything but S/L and of course psi, which didn't change.
Def dropped off some, but it's liveable. I have to dip into a power pool to cap S/L. That's ok though, because Granite is the only one that can do that as well.
The big downside for me is that it was a huge damage reduction. Invuln before had always ment that I didn't need to slot accuracy, so I had my main attacks 6 slotted for damage. Now, that number is half that. That's more than a 33% reduction in overall damage.
Agro control is fine though. Sure AI caps at 17. Even Invince missions won't have that many mobs all together unless there are 8 in the group, but if that's the case then we'll need to have 2 tankers there. Set up two groups, one holds some agro while the other grabs the brunt and gets the buff/debuff for a bit till that group is gone. That tanker moves on to the next set, starts agro while they clear up the other, and the support tank moves into position following the lead tank. It's simple, it can be done, and everyone will be happy.
What this means is that 2 tankers have to work together. There needs to be support for debuff/buff as well as damage to take them down, because tankers can't deal enough damage to really crack into things as well as they used to. Enter scrappers and blasters. Controllers help with overflow of anything between the groups so that the squishies stay alive to take down the groups.
Basically, 1-2 defenders, 1-2 controllers, 2 tankers and 3 blasters/scrappers should be able to run invince missions with ease. Less than that and you can run it with 1 tanker, and the other AT's to aid with what they are good at.
That -was- the plan. Make sure everyone has a role. Tankers can't challenge scrappers for DPS now, and scrappers can't challenge tankers for agro control and protection. Defenders are highly important, but have trouble taking things down, and dealing with agro. Blasters still deal a lot of damage.
There's your balance. That's what we have now, and that's what I've seen. A single tanker should not try tanking an 8 person invince mission by themselves.
Okay, true to my word, I used my respec on live and ran some tests with a group tonight. It's late, so I'm just going to give the generalities here, and will post some specifics when I wake up.
Basically, I could still tank fine, but there was nothing that the team could do with me, that they couldn't do without. Meaning, if I was on the team and being an active contributor, we did fine. If I was just standing off to the side watching, the rest of the team did about 95% as well, maybe more.
The group was made up of two defenders (emp and dark), a mind controller (emp secondary), two blasters, a scrapper, a peacebringer, and myself (and Ice tank). The emp defender and the scrapper were SKed up, but not by much. We were fighting level 46 freakshow (highest level in the group was the mission holder, the controller, at 45). I was at 43.
When properly fortified, I could tank quite well. The time that I wasn't, I died very quickly once the group was engaged. In fact, I'm pretty sure it provoked a few "wow"s. If properly buffed, I still took damage (sometimes into the red) from the alpha, but could cure it through either hoarfrost or the two emps.
After tanking normally for a while, I asked the group if I could perform a test. Basically, I needed to see if they could take the villains at the same pace without me as they could with me. They agreed, with a little trepidation, and the emps proceeded to fort the MA/Regen scrapper. The fight with me on the side went just as well as the fights with me in it. On a second attempt at this test, the same result occured.
So basically, with this group, against these foes (the mish was set to unyielding, so each spawn had many minions, several leiutenants, and 1-3 bosses), my presence was superfluous. If I had not been there, they could have done the mission just as fast as they could with me there.
Okay, that got a bit more specific than I would've liked, and I'm really tired (almost 4 am here), so I'll tackle the rest tomorrow, including posting a rough sketch of my build. But that was the general tone of the night.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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This is actually the point of the change. A yellow boss is supposed to be tougher than a player. A player shouldn't be able to easily fight 2 at once period. The fact that anyone sees is it as an expectation shows that the game was broken.
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A yellow boss (-1 to the player) shouldn't be much tougher than a yellow minion (+1 to the player). In essence, a yellow threat should remain fairly consistent, otherwise the colour coding becomes meaningless.
And yes, being a primarily defensive set - especially Invulnerability - I expect to stand up to any two non-Psi yellows fairly well (after all - three whites essentially equal two yellows and one hero equals three whites). That's my compensation for doing pathetic damage whilst my defensive toggles which are supposed to be doing an adequate job of keeping me alive are steadily draining my End and keeping me from being able to attack for a sustained period of time.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Okay, true to my word, I used my respec on live and ran some tests with a group tonight. It's late, so I'm just going to give the generalities here, and will post some specifics when I wake up.
Basically, I could still tank fine, but there was nothing that the team could do with me, that they couldn't do without. Meaning, if I was on the team and being an active contributor, we did fine. If I was just standing off to the side watching, the rest of the team did about 95% as well, maybe more.
The group was made up of two defenders (emp and dark), a mind controller (emp secondary), two blasters, a scrapper, a peacebringer, and myself (and Ice tank). The emp defender and the scrapper were SKed up, but not by much. We were fighting level 46 freakshow (highest level in the group was the mission holder, the controller, at 45). I was at 43.
When properly fortified, I could tank quite well. The time that I wasn't, I died very quickly once the group was engaged. In fact, I'm pretty sure it provoked a few "wow"s. If properly buffed, I still took damage (sometimes into the red) from the alpha, but could cure it through either hoarfrost or the two emps.
After tanking normally for a while, I asked the group if I could perform a test. Basically, I needed to see if they could take the villains at the same pace without me as they could with me. They agreed, with a little trepidation, and the emps proceeded to fort the MA/Regen scrapper. The fight with me on the side went just as well as the fights with me in it. On a second attempt at this test, the same result occured.
So basically, with this group, against these foes (the mish was set to unyielding, so each spawn had many minions, several leiutenants, and 1-3 bosses), my presence was superfluous. If I had not been there, they could have done the mission just as fast as they could with me there.
Okay, that got a bit more specific than I would've liked, and I'm really tired (almost 4 am here), so I'll tackle the rest tomorrow, including posting a rough sketch of my build. But that was the general tone of the night.
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Yes, that is what many of us have found. It merely confirms our analysis. (I've found exactly the same thing in my own anecdotal experience)
Yup, earlier today, people had wondered if the same held true for Ice tanks, so I said that I would run some tests to see (since there aren't very many of us). I'll post some more disturbing info tomorrow. Well, today, I guess, but much later!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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(Also Ice is not the weakest Tanker primary defensively. Fire is for most situations. "board wisdom" just hasn't cottoned onto it yet)
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My wisdom has, but you already knew that
I think that the bottom line is that Statesman has described what he sees as the role of a Tanker in the game, and I'm sitting here wondering why a team might possibly want to pick someone up for that purpose...