States if you only aggroed 1/3 of a spawn, you need to go back to Tank school. With my Inv/Fire tank, I never get 1/3 of a spawn, I grab the whole spawn. And before they have a chance of overwheming me, my team has free shots to mow thru them.
By accepting what is and making the best use of every situation, life can be fulfilled without a constant demand for more.
--Wen Tzu
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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I have to say, this displeases me greatly.
As before, the role is "you're an MMO AT, not a comic book one, so stop trying to be something you're not", except that Tanks have far less defenses to accomplish this role than they did previously.
In other words: the Tank is a far less effective Controller.
Good luck, Tanks! 
Foo, we losing you for good to the world of brutes?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I mean hell, if you are gonna be required to have a controller/defender combo anyways - why not pick up a scrapper over a tanker to take the brunt, then help clean up?
Also, I fully agree now with the poster referring to Controllers and aggro control. My controller is now better at maintaining it for larger teams than my tanker. And that is not right.
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Quoted for emphasis.
For the past few months (July->November), I was running
regularly with a 4 person team made up of:
inv/fire tanker
grav/rad controller
ma/regen scrapper
ice/ice blaster (me)
We ran these toons from 10-50 in that time, playing an
average of 3 hours / day. Towards the end, we had friends
and pick-ups join us (sometimes SK'd / sometimes not).
My expereince? Well, I found that we could have easily
played without the tanker since we had a controller and
scrapper. Buff the scrapper, let him charge in, then drop
controls (GDF or Ice Storm).
The _ONLY_ time we had to have a tanker was vs. AV's
(esp. doing the Croatoa TF). Would we have been better
without a tanker? Yes, I believe we would have been faster
with 2 scrappers instead of a tanker and a scrapper.
I'm a casual player only, and do PvE 90% of the time. With that caveat in mind....
"What's a Tank's Role post ED?"
- I assume that most tank players are looking for a high-damage-mitigating AT (team friendly) that does good damage and can take a beating (both qualities desired for soloing).
With I5, I6, and ED....I really don't know if a tank can do all of the above. I see tanks becoming offensive and defensive specialists. Defensive tanks will try their utmost to be team-friendly damage mitigators. It'll be harder than in the past, but given the talent out there, I can't believe that people won't still find ways to take a licking and keep on ticking. Meanwhile, the offense oriented tanks will be geared towards keeping small groups of baddies occupied or even whittling them down while the rest of the team does their thing.
I've always felt that the tanker attack sets could be grouped into solo-friendly and team-friendly categories. Axe, Fire, EM, and maybe SS I see as being easier for offensive characters to get the most out of, while Mace, Ice, and Stone just seem geared to contribute more defensively.
The Bottom Line: Tanker capabilities have been more or less reduced to the point where we can't do everything we used to be able to do. Instead, we'll have to choose certain aspects of "tanking" to focus on and try to fill in the gaps as best we can.
Chekmate PI- FF/Psy defender, Virtue
(lvl 50 12/18/07)
Hagis- Inv/War Mace tanker, Freedom
(lvl 50 12/19/08)
Brigid Huntress- Arch/Elec blaster, Freedom
And you never get hit
When your back's to the wall
Gonna fight to the end
And you're taking it all!!
-TF:TM, "The Touch"
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Hm...
I'd say our role is still pretty much what it allways was: take the hits for the team.
But now you're a bit more limited in how many hits you can take for the team. In a large fight, you basically play scranker. You try to hit as many enemies as possible, to hold their attention. You should keep an eye out for targets that are particularly important, like mezzing lts for example and make sure that you get them. Also, you need to keep an eye on your teammates when you can and be ready to pull some aggro off them if they get in too deep.
The point is that you have to know the limits of what a single tank can handle. Don't go into a 8-man team mission expecting tank everything for the team. Same as a defender can't go into a 8-man mission expecting to keep everyone alive no matter what. Teams have to work WITH their Defenders to really benefit from them. Tankers are now the same. What you do, is try to lessen the amount of aggro your team takes. But you have to know when you've reached your limit and will die if you get any more aggro. Once you're at that limit, you're basically doing your job. You have to trust your teammates to be able to handle themselves as well. The days of babysitting teammates is over.
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Gone also are the days of random pick up teams, at least for me. I used to pick up the odd team and risk it knowing that if things went south I could handle the aggro. Now I won't risk a team with out knowing the players.
Hagis hit the nail on the head IMO
My Ice/Axe tank keeps groups safe by keeping dangerous boss mobs on their [censored] for the majority of the fight, I can't tank the whole spawn but do I really need to tank Minions?
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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Here is my question, without Dull Pain, would you have been defeated? If so, does that mean now to be a Tank I have to have Dull Pain?
I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but if you were at 1/3 a couple of times, was they other players doing thier job? if yes, than I personally see a issue with the tank not being able to do his without a healing buff of some kind.
I didn't want Dull Pain personally however when I respec'd I felt I had to take it. (which I have had to use on many occasions) The thought that my tanker build now focuses on two powers (dull pain and rage) makes me wonder about how I am better off in post-ed
Nemsis lv50 Inv/SS
Arch-Nemsis lv 50 SS/Inv
Well, I have a very different opinion. Tanks, pre-SOs are nothing. On a team, they are not worth taking, unless you absolutly want one.
<------------Is in serious need of counsiling, of Alt-o-holism
Recently took my newest project out to play (Level 10 Inv/SS tank). I had planned this character to primarily be solo, but thought he'd have some use in a team. Up to level 10, I had soloed everything. Sometimes having to go get a level, then come back to defeat a mission, but it was fun, and challenging (since level 6, ran on Tenacious, prior, Heroic). It was difficult, and I think the Risk vs. Reward is a little unballanced. I go through missions much slower than any other AT, including controllers, and have almost as much risk of defeat as "squishies."
Anyway, I finally put my "looking for team" flag up, with the disclaimer of "Skanker" in the note box. After some time, maybe 30-45 minutes, I got invited to a team in the Hollows. We started doing Troll missions (almost everybody had the "disarm 2 bombs" mission.) First one was easy, as the level of villians were at best -1 to me, and I was one of the lowest levels on the team, and the only tank. I found I was very much useless, as I did not take taunt, I could not gather much of a crowd with gauntlet. the team blazed through, I slowed them down if anything. As the missions got harder (up to +2s), I found that I could bearly withstand the onslaught of the few trolls I could gather with punch-voke, with the assistance of a very good healer, and timely inspirations.
Even if I had taunt, I wouldn't dare use it, as I would gather so much debt, I'd be going backwards in XP. There is no doubt in my mind, I was next to useless as a team mate, and so I soloed the rest of the day, very depressed.
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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.
I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets (silly Wizards 
).
It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.
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I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.
The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?
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I'm not so sure about that. As a Scrapper you can perform a role very similar to the Tank that Statesman presents. Give me some proper support (i.e. a good defender or controller with resist or def buffs) and many Scrapper can tank major targets (AVs and Monsters) as easily as a tank. As for large spawns, Tanks have a slight edge in aggro creation, but I wonder if these days, if I couldn't generate enough aggro with Energy Torrent and Whirling Sword to keep a good portion of the spawn occupied.
Interestingly enough with extreme support (say a sonic defender and a FF defender) I wonder if my Blaster wouldn't make the best tank. Ice Storm and Frost Breath and you got more than five mobs ticked at you in seconds. If you really have some good support why not just Blizzard to kill the minions and then tank the Bosses and stray Lts.
I don't mean this to be overly argumentative, but it seems that Tankers, while being the best at tanking, have so little to bring to the table (i.e. an advantage in HP and aggro generation) that a team would be better off with more damage, more control, or more support.
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A super-buffed blaster versus a non-buffed tank? You probably would be about equal, from what I can see.
But an equally buffed tank would be like playing under i5 still.
There's a really good chat log in the general forum from 11/02/2005 from some site that talks about some of the questions (Statesman and Lord Recluse were in that chat.) Its very insightful.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Foo, we losing you for good to the world of brutes?
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I'm pretty much already gone. I haven't played my level 50 Tank or even thought of making a Tank since just after I5.
I bought this game to play in a online world of superheroes, and the Tank just doesn't fit the bill anymore. The AT as a whole never really made sense to me, what with the terribly poor implementation of Taunt, and the decision to make what is supposed to be a bruising tough guy is a guy that uses harsh language to get people's attention, or fights and gains vastly more attention than their actual threat deserves.
It's an AT that's predicated upon the Devs' willingness to subvert the AI to make the AT "work".
That's just crap.
You wanna know why Tanks don't work in PvP? It's because they don't really work in PvE. They've just been propped up with enough clumsy game mechanics so as to appear a functional AT.
The Devs have shown remarkable courage/brazenness in overhauling the entire defenses of the game, and in hoisting ED upon the playerbase, yet they're perfectly willing to let Tanks pretend to be something they aren't through whatever AI crutch they can muster to make it so.
Why would I start playing a Tank now? Can't a Scrapper get enough aggro to "tank" on the terms Statesman outlines above? If I really want to rely on an AI kludge to gain aggro, I can always take Provoke and slot it with the marvellous surplus of slots I now have from my single-slottable- enhancement powers.
Heck, give it an issue and I'll just port my Brute over from CoV and he can do everything a Tank reasonably can be expected to do, plus I get to do more damage!
There's no reason I can find to play a Tank anymore, aside from stubborness, ignorance, masochism, or lack of access to CoV.
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SpiritWraith, can a Stone tank hit DR cap solo with his powers as they are now including the Fighting Pool but not counting Granite Armor?
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Not a numbers guy here, so honestly not sure. You'd be going stone skin, rock armor, tough, and sufficiently slotted maybe, but honestly I doubt it. The analysis I have seen done so far is that Pre Granite, Stone is worse off than Invulnerability, but post Granite their "glory" remains.
Don't know what to say abou the how often will you die question. I'd probably say less often, because it is easier to slowly grind down bosses, but the xp over time is so much less as a tanker that the Scrapper is far and away the better deal (but then, it is the "solo" AT).
In a team, I find that my stone tank pre Granite dies a lot MORE often than my scrappers, mainly because of rooted. When a stone tank gets into a fight, getting out is tricky, especially since teleport isn't very user friendly indoors, assuming you took teleport at all).
Post Granite of course, you are a the aggro magnet wall, and I have taunt, provoke, and pots to maximize my aggro drawing abilities. With the new cap, I'm just not sure what my best model is for drawing aggro.
Solo though, while I can handle invinicible, as a Stone/Ice, it takes forever to arrest bosses. I can live with that, since my character really is designed for a duo with a Kheldian. Blasters of course love me now too, but my uber defensiveness has a price, and the main price is a huge degradation in solo capability.
The only Time i have ever needed to blow of Hoarfrost is when there is toxic damage I want to help to resist, or if Myt health is falling faster than the defenders can help me mitigate it(which is rare).
But yeah, grab boss and mezzing units aggro and leave it at that, the group can handle the rest while you keep those nuisances at bay.
We are not the unstoppable gods we used to be but at least we still have our place, cause a scrapper cannot take hits like us. Even after I5 and ED
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Hagis hit the nail on the head IMO
My Ice/Axe tank keeps groups safe by keeping dangerous boss mobs on their [censored] for the majority of the fight, I can't tank the whole spawn but do I really need to tank Minions?
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So, if Scrappers are the Dev-appointed Boss-killers, then the Tank's role is to protect the Scrapper so that he can do his job?
Hands up, any Scrappers in the audience: do you need a bodyguard to kill a Boss?
I appreciate you asking the question, Tom, bc as a new tanker, I would like a different perspective than "roll another AT". Sorry for the long post but I've been thinking about this since I5.
By way of background, my main is a lvl 24 invul/fire on Champion. I mainly duo with a D3 (70%) but also join small 3-5 teams (around 20%), 6+ large teams (5%) or solo (5%). I run my mishs on Rugged. I'm new to MMORPG (coh being my first), new to coh (just started Aug '05) and tanking.
I'll describe how I play my main (g0dWrath). I'm usually the first one to jump into a spawn, hoping that Invincibility will do its job and my RES and hp hold up. D3's have a decent heal (Twilight Grasp) and an awesome debuff (Darkest Night) so I do take that into account, although I don't find myself needing heals that often.
I do appreciate the buffs given by defenders, and the controls provided by trollers and thank them for it.
I take the alpha. In some cases, if I don't think I can handle the alpha by jumping into the spawn, I either taunt pull or have someone else pull (like the D3) and I block and tackle.
I'm working on the skill to "set up" a pull (the role which BlackSly calls "the Anvil" - excellent guide BTW) so that AoE and damage dealing can be best applied.
My tanker does contribute to damage dealing through Scorch, Fire Sword (six slotted) and Air Superiority. I use Combustion (an AoE) for damage and holding aggro. Since I regularly team with a defender, we BOTH have to contribute to damage or else the mish goes very slow. A blaster or scrapper is always a welcome addition to our team!
I expect that my teammates know how to manage aggro. They should know how their actions can gain aggro and what they plan on doing with it. The Tanker cannot be expected to control ALL aggro. It is obvious that the game is being changed to ensure this.
However, I see it as my job to "manage" slippage (i.e. aggro that has turned its attention away from me to a squishie or when we accidently trip a spawn: does the mob do a lot of dmg? how many mobs are heading toward my teammate? can my teammate handle it?
If so, I keep attacking and doing whatever I'm doing. I've asked teammates afterward if alittle slippage is ok, and most agreed that it is, since one - maybe two - mobs (depending on con) is usually not a problem.
If not, I use taunt or jump over there and hit the mob, trying to draw its aggro.
I keep an eye on the team window and check to see if anyone's health is yellow or worse or falling rapidly. If so, I either taunt their target or just run over there.
I see no problem with another AT (Scrappers usually) wanting to keep/draw aggro - "tanking" perhaps. I have also felt more comfortable in the few 8 man teams I've been in to have another tanker (or at least a Scrapper) to share aggro.
When there are blasters on my team, I tend to focus more on managing aggro (through taunts, auras, switching targets to spread the aggro) than damage dealing, as they are aggro magnets.
Scrappers are different - I usually focus on dmg dealing unless someone needs help. Plus, the Scrappers I've played with WANT to be the first one in battle (i.e. take the alpha) though we both tend to run in at the same time.
It is usually during the first minute or so of a fight (depending on the size of the spawn of course) that I know what strategy I should take (i.e. focus on keeping aggro, keep dishing out the pain, retreat, etc.).
Of course, the above is what I TRY to do. I've faceplanted, failed to transfer aggro before my teammate fell, etc. But not at a frequency that I would consider switching AT's.
I subscribe to the old school thinking of what "Tanking" should be about:
- first one in
- last one out
- face-to-face contact with the enemy
That's heroism to me (in an online game context). That's why I like the Tank AT. I hope that I5/ED and beyond doesn't change that TOO much.
Well Tom i am lost and not sure what to do mostly the huge stock pile of INF i have and the loss of the heart of tanking has turned my role into that of an INF bank for my other characters. I have shelved her in her I4 glory and only really use her on test or to compare between test and what a I4 was like. Dont get me wrong even after I5 and I6 with no respec (on Live) i can still solo but the fun is gone for me. I can herd up helper monkeys but it breaks my concept to be a SR tanker.
When I do play its solo only. Since i built this tanker in Early December and it was my first i tried to build a classic tanker who was the first in and the last out kind. I cannot fill the role i was built for anymore I do not fit my concept anymore so the few times i play i solo. I soloed about 50% of my 47 levels on my main and thats all i do now because thats what still make me feel like i did prior to I5.
Sorry Tom I am not that up beat about my tanks anymore. But i cling to the hope that one day i will be able to come backout of the shadows. I hope someone will come up with that something that makes me want to get back and be a tank again. Which is why i keep checking back here help me see the light guys.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
I'm seeing a lot of uncertainly in how you and the other devs percevie the Tanker. We know you have spread sheets and equations are used in balancing the game. The players do have a good idea of what the numbers as well. But how do those numbers translate into game play for a Tanker? How longer is a Tanker expected to last? How many mobs is a Tanker expect to be able to handle on his own without support?
In my case I want to know how a Tanker is expect to perform in corner cases: large number of mobs the Tanker is weakest again, virutally no support from the team, and/or large damage source the Tanker is weak against. In my mind I see two different situations for my Invuln Tanker Fuzun since I know the power sets do well. The first is the Infernal Portal mission. Invuln not so tough vs Fire and large potention numbers of mobs that will overwhlem even Invincbility. How many is too many and how long is too longer for a Tanker to survive? Another situation is a very skewed team? A Tanker w/ 7 Blaster vs an ArchVillian or Monster? No suppose and 7 very vulnerable teammates. Is such a fight winnable vs most (or all) Archvilliians in the game?
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Hagis hit the nail on the head IMO
My Ice/Axe tank keeps groups safe by keeping dangerous boss mobs on their [censored] for the majority of the fight, I can't tank the whole spawn but do I really need to tank Minions?
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So, if Scrappers are the Dev-appointed Boss-killers, then the Tank's role is to protect the Scrapper so that he can do his job?
Hands up, any Scrappers in the audience: do you need a bodyguard to kill a Boss?
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No, but that additional tiny DoT (i.e. Tanker damage) is always helpful, so I can move on to the next target in an expeditious manner.
(I'm sorry guys, I'm with you, really I am.)
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
no Foo Ill let a Scrapper fight the boss he doesnt need protection, In the later levels a Blaster, Defender, and Controller might if the spawn is large enough. Scrappers are a Self Sufficient AT in teams they act a lot like the wild cards. They run around and attack at will to help the team. A tanker is focused to keep the "Squishies" safe. Not the Scrapper. As My tank I never worry about Scrappers really unless they need the help with the attention they get. But I am always watchful of the squishier Ats because I can instantly take the mobs attention off them and onto me if the need arises.
Well, so far you could still be a Stone Tank. There are downsides, but you still get that "Come on, hit me, hit me again, it tickles" feeling when you port right into the middle of that spawn and yell out your "yo mama" jokes.
Only question now, is will Stone face the nerf bat next?
No stone is pretty safe i think.
People were asking for an ice tanks point of view. I leveled up to 36 in !5, im currently 39 in I6...
In the spirit of the OP, i'll post what my role has been so far. I play the role of the pace setter, and the puller. I am the guy that takes the first barrage from the spawn we want to fight. I usally hurl a boulder, duck around a corner, and have the group set up behind me. When they baddies come, they hit my CE, and slow down, and all jump on me. From there, I will do my best to keep them focused on me as long as I can while the team tears the everliving hell out of them. It works 99% of the time. My tactics and what I do to "tank" hasn't really changed, although it is harder to keep all of em beating on me. As far as my role changeing, the only thing i can really say is I use hibernate a bit more. But with taunt, and CE with 3 taunt enhancers, i am usally healed up before the mobs attacking me swithch targets. Additionaly, I do not expect to keep the agro of every mob. I just keep most of them on me, its good enough. I rarley do the "hop into the big group of baddies move" I plan it out, and try to use a corner or cover to aleviate the ranged pounding you can take if you just stand there. I draw them in, in a nice clump with my CE, and start popin off attacks (Fault and Tremor really help here).
I have done this in large groups with a single storm defender, or a single conteoller, my health has never been an issue, the only time I have ever died is becasue of a mistake I made. And I would insinctually yell "run" because I lost agro. Here's the main diffrence I see...when i tell my groupmates to run, its out of habit, 85-90% of the time they dont need to run any more. back in the old days, when the tank went down, everyone better bail the heck out ASAP. But it's not that way any more. You are a part of the team, but you aren't "the team"
The short version is, im still doin what I was doing before.
if you ask me, a tanker should get some kind of reward, or bonus vs dying. If you ask me, that is one of their main roles, to take the risk that others ain't willing to take. To put your neck on the line, and we aere still the best equiped to do so, its just not as easy any more.
I realize this has been posted already both in this thread as well as in others, but I'm responding truthfully since you asked.
Our role has not changed although our tactics may have. I'm not going to say that I can "solo AVs on Invincible" or any such malarky like that. But I play an Invul Tanker and I have not changed tactics at all (I cannot speak about any other Tanker primary as I have not had sufficient experience with them post-ED). Each of my defenses has 3 slots of the appropriate Enh. I also have Taunt, Provoke, and the two Fear powers from the same pool as Provoke (I forget their names atm). These latter powers are all 6-slotted with either Taunt Dur, Acc, Fear Dur, Recharge, etc. I have two melee powers in my secondary but I rarely use them. Between those 4 powers I can generally keep 100% aggro on me instead of my team and I have no problems taking the damage and surviving.
With that said, I realize my playstyle and the manner in which I have fun is not for everyone. Not everyone enjoys being the "taunt-bot" type of character (although I would strongly argue that I'm a lot more than that considering I'm in the best position to watch the flanks, look for adds, call out for particular powers to be cast, etc). But the Tanker role can still be the same as it always has been if so desired.
For the majority of players, they also want to be able to do a bit of "smashing", to steal a term from the Brutes. The Tanker's Gauntlet ability allows for this to also function as a limited taunt so as to mitigate the decrease in CC that comes from choosing to hit instead of Taunt. That along with the increased damage that Tankers are doing these days (which is kinda ludicrous imho, but that's for another thread) gives Tankers much more versitility in a group than it used to be only a year ago when we could truly only be taunt-bots and meatshields.
I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that our role has become increasingly diversified over the past year but you have to build your character to perform the role that you choose it to fill, no differently than someone who wants to play a "blapper" or "scraptroller" has to do. The important thing is that your team understands the role that you fill and can quickly learn to work together under those conditions.
Yes, I can still take damage and control aggro for a team as an Invul Tanker but I have built my char around that concept. Those that build damaging attacks into their build are going to saccrifice some of that damage mitigation and/or CC from their build in order to do so. Build your character for the role you want it to fulfill and understand what you give up for what you gain.
Statesman
Here is my two cents. Your basic answer is correct, the tank has to be able to jump in and grab aggro long enough for others to act without fear of instant death (what happens if most other ATs start a fight). From what I have seen most tanks (granite excepted) can only do this succesfully on a team that has at least one defender or controller who can somehow buff, heal or take aggro away from the Tanker. Now MOST big teams have a person to fit this bill. However, it is possible to end up on a team (particularly a midsized one 4-5ish) with an excess of blasters and scrappers, and no one who can help with the alpha strike problem. This happens more than occasionally, since these are two of the more popular ATs. The upshot is things are not horribly broken, but you can run into intractable situations. One possible solution is to add some combination of +def, DR or healing to a tank for each team member over 3.
THz
For invulnerability tanks, the only takenr primary I use, we're using our secondaries a lot more than primaries, and I haven't seen invulns use their primaries for much more than keeping foes stuck on them like glue, and that's only with one power. The rest are pretty much keeping us alive long enough for the rest of the team to get there and join in the fight. Enemies come for the secondaries, but stay for the primaries with invuln tanks. Draw them in with secondaries, hold them with primaries. An invuln has always seemed pretty limited with with his primary aggro-hold, Invincibility. It's why Punch-voke is still here, to keep enemies busy.
I haven't really changed my damage-sponge tanking strategies much, since I can still keep targets off of my teammates just by standing between targets and teammates. HOWEVER, this does not mean I haven't changed my overall tanker strategies. I have slotted for status effects in addition to accuracy and damage in my attacks (knockdown for my Inv/SS and Disorient for my Inv/EM) and have noticed that I'm much better at setting up my enemies for my teammates' attacks to finish them off.
You might be sitting there thinking "A controller can do that even better." A controller can't lock everyone down at once, and they can't be in the front line dealing with enemies who have broken his holds without risking losing other lockdowns. The tanker is there to do on-the-spot crisis assessment and control/redirection of enemy movement. Whirling Hands, Foot Stomp, Hand Clap, and other similar powers are very good at keeping enemies from looking at your more fragile teammates, as well as keeping their heads ringing long enough to finish them off.
The strategy has changed from us being the unbreakable rally point of the team to being the tip of the spear. We break through our enemies, sure, but the real effect comes from the team. I was getting assistance from my defenders with buffs and heals before I5 and ED, and I still will when it comes up. In return, I "fight fires" by making sure that enemies are distracted from the rest of the team. It takes more effort, I'll tell you that much.
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