[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.
The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?
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Well, that answers my question of "How Many Enemies," but leaves the question of what powers and strategies he was using. Considering Taunt pulls a group and various auras do the same, how exactly was he "picking" his opponents? What powers was he running? Did he act like the traditional "static" tank that stands and brawls or was he a "runner" tank that ran everywhere?
FWIW, I don't believe the majority of tankers can fulfill this expectation, either, especially without knowing more about the tactics in use.
I really hate some of Statesman's replies. If I gave this little of information that something was wrong I would get a reply of how many in the typical mob? What level were the mobs? How many LTs? Bosses? Were you street hunting(my guess he was) or doing missions. Maybe a slotting/power question.
States with all due respect you need to give out what you ask for if you want us to give your responses credit in such scenarios. I know it is extra work, but would make it easier to swallow. Big difference if you were fighting 4-5 blues and whites or 6-7 yellows and reds.
When a long time player says I feel such and such is off they get hammered with give more info, when Statesman does it we are suppose to take it for face value.
Some are legends because of their posts, others just post becoming legends in their own mind.
[i]I refuse to have Numina regen/recovery envy.
You do realize that this is only the start of a test.
Did the team succeed? Yes.
Did the team try working things with the tanker simply not getting involved?
If so, was there any degradation in performance?
With two controllers, (and a Kin controller at that) was aggro management much of an issue?
If the Tank was replaced with any other AT, would things have gone fast/safer?
Personally, I think a non-stone tank in a team is just kind of there, not really adding, but not a big detriment either.
Problem I have with the state of tankers right now is that I just don't think they contribute as much as most other AT's except in very specific circumstances.
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You do realize that this is only the start of a test.
Did the team succeed? Yes.
Did the team try working things with the tanker simply not getting involved?
If so, was there any degradation in performance?
With two controllers, (and a Kin controller at that) was aggro management much of an issue?
If the Tank was replaced with any other AT, would things have gone fast/safer?
Personally, I think a non-stone tank in a team is just kind of there, not really adding, but not a big detriment either.
Problem I have with the state of tankers right now is that I just don't think they contribute as much as most other AT's except in very specific circumstances.
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Quoted for emphasis and in hope of an answer.
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OK, now that Statesman has given us his idea of the Role of the Tank, I have to ask the questions:
With the resources we have at the present time, can we fulfill that role?
Are there Primaries that would not have been able to fulfill that role? Secondaries?
Is the role a reasonable one that we can live with, long term? If not, how can we expand on it? If the DEVs can expand on it, what is reasonable to ask them to do that will not unbalance the game?
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I hesitate to post this but oh well...
I am trying to say this so it doesn't come off as being disrespectful because that is not my intent.
*withdrawn, because no matter how tactfully I say it it will be taken the wrong way*
Anyway to your original question (if it is still being entertained) what I as a player think the new role of the post I5-ED tank is.
I agree with the posters who think our role is that of the soloist now. Self sufficiency and personal survival is key. We need to become the swiss army knife AT. Survival artists. Unless you play with a regular team or luck into decent PuGs you really can't rely on your teammates to help. Now you can't rely on your primary set to protect you either if things go south. Power pools will allow you to help yourself and on the odd occasion to help your team as well.
Honestly you can't help anyone else if you can't help yourself first.
Shell game: Arc_ID:417344: It can't be good for humanity if the Circle of Thorns, Banished Pantheon and The Vahzilok are making deals.
A Final Solution: Arc_ID:402587: Earth is under stress. Every being she has spawned and some she hasn't want to possess her. Some of her children believe they have a way to put a stop to this and bring a peace.
Tankers are the only Defense primary AT in the game. We also have the best aggro tools for melee ATs to use that inherent defense for the good of our team. Soloing, I still have not had any issues really. And this is on both my Inv/SS and my Fire/Fire neither of which have the fighting pool (although HF has that bug that is hurting it's heal%).
I am so-so on the old meatshield concept. I did for years in EQ and liked it, and I liked it here too. I can understand the desire for more that many have however.
Tankers have far-greater damage mitigation than any 'tank' class in EQ could ever dream of. I have never seen a planar level warrior able to solo any mobs worth xp, and they need support to tank for a team. Scrappers are actually better at tanking than EQ tanks are, and Tankers are above that! This is why they slapped us so hard I think. They belatedly realize they bascially made us too tough and now are bandaging the game haphazardly.
What should our team role be? Using our defenses and aggro-tools to help keep our less-protected teammates alive while using our attacks to accelerate the demise of our enemies. Right now I feel that barring GA and Unstoppable, we are below where we need to be to be equal contributors. The AT has been cut too far and needs some re-adjusting.
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OK, now that Statesman has given us his idea of the Role of the Tank, I have to ask the questions:
With the resources we have at the present time, can we fulfill that role?
Are there Primaries that would not have been able to fulfill that role? Secondaries?
Is the role a reasonable one that we can live with, long term? If not, how can we expand on it? If the DEVs can expand on it, what is reasonable to ask them to do that will not unbalance the game?
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If I understand Jack's rationale correctly, he found Invulnerability boring because of its level of inate damage mitigation. So the bonuses from Invuln's toggles and passives were reduced. He wanted Invuln tanks to fulfill their role actively through the use of our fists instead of Taunt.
So, to follow that same line of thinking, I would propose taking Invuln's passives and turning them into powers that "do stuff". Give us powers that encourage active tanking, rather than passives that have been reduced to being nigh-useless. I think that would go a long way towards helping the flavor of Invulnerability.
As far as Fire, the need to dip into the Leaping pool for knockback protection still cramps our ability to take some liberties with our builds. It has been billed as the "offensive tanker", and yet most Fire tanks can really only use Burn if the enemies are locked down. But, again since our role is more distractionary, perhaps that is supposed to be the new purpose of Burn (mitigating damage by making enemies run around like chickens with their heads cut off). In the new CoH world, I guess Fire is working as intended.
For Stone, life outside Granite can be painful in teams. I've had plenty of encounters with groups of 8-10 +1 Carnies with my level 47 Stone tank outside of GA. In those encounters, I would say my survivability was akin to the scenario Statesman described. Inside GA, the tanker game changes from "stay alive" to "aaaaah, must control aggro!!!" as I attempt to fulfill my role to the team while moving and recharging at snail-like speeds. you really have to decide what kind of tanking mood you are in with Stone, and I think that gives it a great feel. Again, I think this set is working as intended.
Ice.......someone else will have to chime in on this one. (I never fancied playing a DEF only tanker) 
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I really hate some of Statesman's replies. If I gave this little of information that something was wrong I would get a reply of how many in the typical mob? What level were the mobs? How many LTs? Bosses? Were you street hunting(my guess he was) or doing missions. Maybe a slotting/power question.
States with all due respect you need to give out what you ask for if you want us to give your responses credit in such scenarios. I know it is extra work, but would make it easier to swallow. Big difference if you were fighting 4-5 blues and whites or 6-7 yellows and reds.
When a long time player says I feel such and such is off they get hammered with give more info, when Statesman does it we are suppose to take it for face value.
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True. Seriously, he didn't even tell us his build, something he asks for whenever people complain they can't do something.
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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.
I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets (silly Wizards 
).
It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.
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I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.
The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?
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I'm not so sure about that. As a Scrapper you can perform a role very similar to the Tank that Statesman presents. Give me some proper support (i.e. a good defender or controller with resist or def buffs) and many Scrapper can tank major targets (AVs and Monsters) as easily as a tank. As for large spawns, Tanks have a slight edge in aggro creation, but I wonder if these days, if I couldn't generate enough aggro with Energy Torrent and Whirling Sword to keep a good portion of the spawn occupied.
Interestingly enough with extreme support (say a sonic defender and a FF defender) I wonder if my Blaster wouldn't make the best tank. Ice Storm and Frost Breath and you got more than five mobs ticked at you in seconds. If you really have some good support why not just Blizzard to kill the minions and then tank the Bosses and stray Lts.
I don't mean this to be overly argumentative, but it seems that Tankers, while being the best at tanking, have so little to bring to the table (i.e. an advantage in HP and aggro generation) that a team would be better off with more damage, more control, or more support.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I really hate some of Statesman's replies. If I gave this little of information that something was wrong I would get a reply of how many in the typical mob? What level were the mobs? How many LTs? Bosses? Were you street hunting(my guess he was) or doing missions. Maybe a slotting/power question.
States with all due respect you need to give out what you ask for if you want us to give your responses credit in such scenarios. I know it is extra work, but would make it easier to swallow. Big difference if you were fighting 4-5 blues and whites or 6-7 yellows and reds.
When a long time player says I feel such and such is off they get hammered with give more info, when Statesman does it we are suppose to take it for face value.
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To a long-term player, he gave enough information for us to determine what the spawns looked like--level 52, two bosses, 4 lieutenants and about 10 minions. They would have been +3 to Statesman's tank (in other words, red minions, purple anything else.) Not a trivial spawn by any means.
I have a lot of sympathy for him in that I've run a lot (dozens and dozens) of test teams during the various issues. No matter what results I came up with, someone always had some issue with the test.
One way to examine the effectiveness of the tank would have been to make a few copies on test of the character with the mission, then run through them with the other ATs taking the place of the tank. That would give some idea of whether or not the tank was being beneficial in this case.
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
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I disagree with this. A good controller is far better at managing aggro then a tank and have more tools to do so. Granted it is a harder play style since you are often "playing on the edge of a knife" but it is true nonetheless. This really becomes apprent in the later game where defender powers, good damage, control, pets and finally the ability to withstand a great deal of damage(armors&mezz protection) combine into one package.
Tanks like defenders have a use on a team it just so happens however that their usefulness is 1/5th that of a good controllers(1/100,000th in pvp). I have never had an easier run through the TV trial then on a team with an ill/empathy controller. Industructible pets are by far the best tanks in the game. Honestly when compared to controllers I see no real value to the defender AT other than as a play style choice. When controllers stack up against tanks I see only a marginal benefit, mostly for the unskilled. CoV proves that a control powers, defender powers and skillful aggro management can equal a tank.
From a PvP prespective I think tanks maybe perfect currently >>>> IF <<< Toggle drops are removed and mezz amounts reduced. They are no longer needed.
From a PvE I think currently Tanks have holes that are too large in their defenses. For example what role does an Invul tank serve on a team when you face alot of elemental or energy damage? They mostly function like scrappers, two sides of the same coiin. Scrappers can handle less but deal with it fast while a tank can slightly handle more but deals with it slower. This makes many tank types dangerously unreliable. Especially invulnerability and ice at least fire and stone tanks give a team time to react!! It is often better to evenly divide the aggro amongst a skilled team, that way the incoming volume of damage is predictable and can be managed, where as when a tank takes the brunt and drops where is the all the damage going now? Most often it is to the blaster or the defender which get wiped out and this leads to a cascade situation.
The very best use I have seen of tanks recently is to absorb the main attack from an AV or particulally dangerous boss. That attack would often outpace the damage mitigation on any other (buffed up) AT. Thats not to say you HAVE to have a tank but that it really just makes things alot easier.
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I have never seen a planar level warrior able to solo any mobs worth xp, and they need support to tank for a team. Scrappers are actually better at tanking than EQ tanks are, and Tankers are above that! This is why they slapped us so hard I think. They belatedly realize they bascially made us too tough and now are bandaging the game haphazardly.
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I think that what they're really running into is that in a game designed so that anyone can solo effectively, groups don't have much need for a meatshield. 
I'm not sure how much this is being realized -- but the CoV ATs sure look designed based on an anyone-can-solo paradigm, more so than the CoH ATs (and look, no tank AT).
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I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
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Statesman,
For the nth time, I will ask the exact same questions:
1) Will you please post your build?
- anecdotaly evidence doesn't help much
2) What level were the enemies?
- saying Carnival of Shadows lvl 50 rugged helps, but
saying that you faced typical spawns of 10-15 +1/+2
without bosses (you only say mins and lts) would be
more useful.
- For all we know, the mish was picked up at lvl 49.
3) How long did the mission last?
- The game has slowed down quite a bit since I4.
- The xp mish boost helps offset this, but the feeling of
being a "superhero" has been greatly diminished.
I'm going to PM you on this since it seems you don't see my
posts asking these exact questions.
The role described here...
Controllers and Dominators and even Masterminds are much better at doing this (Shaving off part of a spawn and keeping it busy) than tanks are now.
Tanks now get to be horrible at the only job they do well.
Look at what Tankers are stuck with now. The damage dealers SHINE: Scrappers and blasters and stalkers are great at what they do. The buffers and debuffers and controllers shine! While the tank.... fulfills a very limited version of his function. The best tank in the world can't show out to the same extent of the other ATs. He's left with substandard offense, substandard defense (for the role he's asked to fill), and limited aggro controls.
Any regret I had over deleting all but one tank (Kept in retirement for sentimental reasons) just went out the window.
It amazes me that anyone still wants to be a tank now.
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Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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On the live servers? Considering what you and I have been discussing in email, namely that Invincibility is providing three times the buffit should be, the fact that you're riding at 1/3 "several times" have you concerned in the least?
I'll tell you what. Try the same thing with an Ice/Fire, a Fire/Fire, and a Stone/Fire (both out and in Granite) - so four more tests total. And then tell us what you think.
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i have an AV Experience thread floating around that highlights this really well. in particular, PorkchopXpress and AmericanSpirit both submitted reports battling a +2 Nightstar. they were both Inv/Axe tankers. they were both on teams, one a 4-person team with two controllers, a blaster and a scrapper. one a 6-person team with a scrapper, a controller, two blasters, and a defender. one of them couldn't survive without US and had to retreat when US dropped. one of them tanked Nightstar with little difficulty. i think it makes sense for us to have to apply different tactics in different situations, but it becomes frustrating when its not clear the particulars have changed.
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Watch it there Tiff! I was playing the controller that had to jump in and "tank" the AV, damage the AV, and simultaneously do everything I could to keep the squishy Tanker alive. Not that I could have POSSIBLY done any better than the high quality Tanker we were using, but lets keep the facts straight. 
I was the one in the corner LAUGHING at the retreating tanker. (albeit, while simultaneously worrying for the future of my fave AT)
Let me point out one thing, and that is history does tend to repeat itself. I don't want to cry doom, but in I2s larger teams it was sometimes difficult for a tanker to be wanted over a scrapper. The thought process (as stated by an above poster) was that with multiple players to buff a melee player - you may as well get one that will be providing a lot of offensive output for the team as well as taking the initial aggro. I mean hell, if you are gonna be required to have a controller/defender combo anyways - why not pick up a scrapper over a tanker to take the brunt, then help clean up?
I don't expect it to get so bad that you see Tankers holding "will aggro for food" signs, or a bunch of people ever posting they can't find teams anymore (yes, I do recall those days on this forum) but sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.
And in the meantime - I'm gonna go SMASH!
*bah, Geko got that point out before I could finish my post 
Also, I fully agree now with the poster referring to Controllers and aggro control. My controller is now better at maintaining it for larger teams than my tanker. And that is not right.
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Watch it there Tiff! I was playing the controller that had to jump in and "tank" the AV, damage the AV, and simultaneously do everything I could to keep the squishy Tanker alive. Not that I could have POSSIBLY done any better than the high quality Tanker we were using, but lets keep the facts straight.
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oops - sorry 'bout that! thanks! i'll go back and edit that for the sake of veracity!
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i have an AV Experience thread floating around that highlights this really well. in particular, PorkchopXpress and AmericanSpirit both submitted reports battling a +2 Nightstar. they were both Inv/Axe tankers. they were both on teams, one a 4-person team with two controllers, a blaster and a scrapper. one a 6-person team with a scrapper, a controller, two blasters, and a defender. one of them couldn't survive without US and had to retreat when US dropped. one of them tanked Nightstar with little difficulty. i think it makes sense for us to have to apply different tactics in different situations, but it becomes frustrating when its not clear the particulars have changed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Watch it there Tiff! I was playing the controller that had to jump in and "tank" the AV, damage the AV, and simultaneously do everything I could to keep the squishy Tanker alive. Not that I could have POSSIBLY done any better than the high quality Tanker we were using, but lets keep the facts straight. I was the one in the corner LAUGHING at the retreating tanker. (albeit, while simultaneously worrying for the future of my fave AT)
Let me point out one thing, and that is history does tend to repeat itself. I don't want to cry doom, but in I2s larger teams it was sometimes difficult for a tanker to be wanted over a scrapper. The thought process (as stated by an above poster) was that with multiple players to buff a melee player - you may as well get one that will be providing a lot of offensive output for the team as well as taking the initial aggro. I mean hell, if you are gonna be required to have a controller/defender combo anyways - why not pick up a scrapper over a tanker to take the brunt, then help clean up?
I don't expect it to get so bad that you see Tankers holding "will aggro for food" signs, or a bunch of people ever posting they can't find teams anymore (yes, I do recall those days on this forum) but sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.
And in the meantime - I'm gonna go SMASH!
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I will say it again. Build to protect you. Bunk concept and bunk building for teams. Insure your survival first and foremost. Only then can you reliably assist a team. I say this only because you don't know who you're going to be dealing with in pugs.
From the reply given and the rumors of more reductions flying around I see no hope. It's going down hill so my advice is cya as best you can.
Shell game: Arc_ID:417344: It can't be good for humanity if the Circle of Thorns, Banished Pantheon and The Vahzilok are making deals.
A Final Solution: Arc_ID:402587: Earth is under stress. Every being she has spawned and some she hasn't want to possess her. Some of her children believe they have a way to put a stop to this and bring a peace.
[ QUOTE ]
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
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My concern with this is his focus on Damage Dealers rather than the PSI attackers. Granted I have not played a Tanker since ED but when I fought Carnies I was scared of the PSI attackers because they could slice through me like butter. I am saddened that it appears that a Tankers damage mitigation is now so low that they have to worry about damage dealers more than PSI attackers.
My opinion on the roll of tanker: pre I5 the Tank was a wall between the MOB and teammates. When you attacked a MOB, the individuals on your team KNEW the tank would stop them from getting hit. Period.
Post I5/ED I believe others view us as neither here nor there to have on the team. In other words, defenders don't have to monitor us as much as blasters so they like that. Blasters can count on us to hold some agro, so they like that. Scrappers still see us the same as before, except they may get a little more heat from enemies, which they probably don't like or don't care.
In my experience (post I5/ED) people still invite me, and enjoy having me on the team, but don't feel it necessary to have a tank.
My 2 cents.
MM
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Look at it this way guys..
Ice Primary can slow the mobs, drain their end, and slow their recharge(a little, but it helps)
The secondary just adds flavor. Go with Ice seconds, and you get some controll. Go with fire, and you got some serious offense. Go with mace, and you get some disorient and SMASH. Axe, you get knockback, plus an occasional disorient. SS, you get some knock back, PLUS, disorient. Im not to sure about stone, but i hope you understand what im describing.
Now.. when i see people saying that the secondaries arent worth slotting.. SHOW ME THE DEMO. I wanna see your proof that they arent worth the slots. They have more than proved their worth to me.
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The thing Ice is really best at is holding the hate - I rarely, if ever lose aggro on a spawn once I get to work on it.
The things Ice can do for a team primarily come from chilling embrace. With the -recharge -slow and -damage, you can considerably reduce the villains' output... and this power angers them like nobody's business.
Icicles does a bit of damage - lethal only so it's pretty weak compared to say mudpots or blazing aura, despite costing a ludicrous amount of endurance - but this also acts to reinforce aggro control.
Energy Absorption is a handy tool that offers a pathetic amount of defense, but is mainly useful as an endurance recovery tool - though if slotted right you can drain a LOT of your opponents' endurance, make even more hate, and I THINK (not for sure) that it offers some slow; I'd have to log in to verify that last point.
With two drains you can usually empty out the opposition and leave them brawling if you slot it for endurance drain (I have 3 drain SOs in mine), unless you use some other sort of method to control the bad guys; my ice patch seems to keep the bad guys from using attacks a lot, so they sometimes recover enough to keep attacking even after two drains.
The rest of the set is mostly for the tanker's sole benefit (in that they keep the tanker alive in theory).
The rest depends on one's secondary of course.
Statesman wrote:
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Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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Hmmm, not to be nit picky, but I distinctly remember that either in beta or just after launch, the devs insisting that we should not use Dull Pain as a ghetto heal but rather before entering combat.
This can only mean one thing!
DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
Thanks for the info, Statesman.
Sounds like every PUG around. Multiple ATs, several folks SKed, rough start, got better.
Sounds about right.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Statesman, so it's expected that the rest of the team will still be getting hit even with a Tanker? Not complaining or fighting with you, just asking.
I know this isn't every other game, but this is a question of expectations. In most MMOs, a tank that can't handle most to all aggro is not considered to be much of a tank unless the rest of the team is off throwing Ice Comets (silly Wizards ).
It seems that what you're saying is that the tank is there only to return the majority of the team to the solo standard of 3 white minions or slightly better.
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I agree with what you said, but there's more to it. Just as there's synergy between members on a team, there's also synergy within an 16-enemy spawn for a team of 7. On rugged, that spawn would have been 52 carnies, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The tank can pick and choose which of the enemies to get the aggro from, while the scrapper cannot. This does give the tank an advantage.
The question is, is this a big enough advantage to be important?
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I'm not so sure about that. As a Scrapper you can perform a role very similar to the Tank that Statesman presents. Give me some proper support (i.e. a good defender or controller with resist or def buffs) and many Scrapper can tank major targets (AVs and Monsters) as easily as a tank. As for large spawns, Tanks have a slight edge in aggro creation, but I wonder if these days, if I couldn't generate enough aggro with Energy Torrent and Whirling Sword to keep a good portion of the spawn occupied.
Interestingly enough with extreme support (say a sonic defender and a FF defender) I wonder if my Blaster wouldn't make the best tank. Ice Storm and Frost Breath and you got more than five mobs ticked at you in seconds. If you really have some good support why not just Blizzard to kill the minions and then tank the Bosses and stray Lts.
I don't mean this to be overly argumentative, but it seems that Tankers, while being the best at tanking, have so little to bring to the table (i.e. an advantage in HP and aggro generation) that a team would be better off with more damage, more control, or more support.
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I have to agree here. I've seem teams operating lately without Tanks, instead having more support and doing just fine. With good Buffs and Heals, a Scrapper or even a Blaster can fill the role quite well.
This seems to be an issue that isn't going away anytime soon.
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
The one common thing about any tanker I play, I suppose, is that I try to identify chief threats, bring them into melee, and keep them busy.
I'm still sceptical of any tanker AT's ability to fulfil this role before the mid-teens at the earliest; not all of the pieces are in place by then.
How this works in practice depends on what kind of tanker I am playing and what I am up against. My Stone tanker plays very differently against lower level mobs than against oranges and reds. Lower levels, she goes in with just Rooted on and scranks and taunts. Higher levels are a job for Granite and Mudpots. For Invuln, a lot depends on the kinds of damage they do; it's a matter of degrees of caution here.
Another part of the job is to identify and monopolize the attention of problem mobs: sappers, snipers, squidkillers, bosses. Sappers have to be called out; my level 35+ tankers now have TP Foe to use on them. Range attackers have to be herded classically to bring them into melee range. Squidkillers need to be the targets of repeated taunting. Bosses simply need to be engaged.
I can still do limited herding of several spawns as the need and opportunity arise. Someone has tripmines, sure I herd. Someone has a blaster nuke, ditto. Without this, I don't bother. I don't herd for glory; I herd because it works as a tactic given the teammates I have. I don't mean to live forever while herding, but if things go right with these tactics, I shouldn't need to.
My stone, invuln, and fire tankers have around 110 levels shared now. I can do these things with any of these sets, at most levels; been too skeered to try Ice.
I still haven't a clue what I'm supposed to do in PvP. The few times I've tried it, I end up getting toggle-dropped, chain-held, and TPed into mobs or drones. Still haven't figured out a way to force enemy players into melee long enough to accomplish anything. Then again, I don't see catering to the PK mentality as improving the atmosphere, either.
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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison