Spiritwrath

Well, I don't think it was primarily a damage issue, like I said, we were able to make headway when we had Mako on his own, got him to the point where I think he popped his elude, but that is when the reinforcements came. I do believe our damage was sufficient if we didn't have the problem of the 4 AV's coming and smacking us around. We had decent debuff, I had cold, there was definitely a dark, so we could whittle them in time, but the AV's coming the way they did was new. My experience has normally been that you can pull one, or possibly two if you are cautious, and never seen them decide to join in after a delay. It's either right away, or not at all from what I have seen. Seemed strange, so figured I would post my observation and see if there was any corroboration, or possibly a change for 19

Attempted an STF today with an odd PUG, and we got all the way to the final mission, where we couldn't get past the 4 AV's, and I saw some behavior that seemed a little odd to me based on my previous experience with the Task Force.

Team composition simply didn't have enough damage overall, with 2 tanks, 2 defenders, 1 corruptor, 1 mastermind, 1 Peacebringer, and 1 dominator.

With that said, when it came time to face the pack of four, we would make a pull, it seemed clean, got Mako and were smacking him for quite a while and when he was down to around a third, up came Black Scorpion. One tank peeled off and held Scorpion, but when we got Mako to around a quarter, up came Scirocco, followed promptly by Ghost Widow, and we got slapped around and dropped, without being able to focus on any single AV enough to make any headway.

We fell back and regrouped and started over, and found the same behavior. A pull, followed by slow damaging of the AV, and then another of the 4 joining, followed by the last two.

What I am wondering is whether this is standard behavior. If you don't have enough damage to drop those four AV's rather quickly, do the others always get involved? Or was there something going on here that I was missing, and someone was drawing aggro somehow from the rest of the A.V.'s?

Any insight would be welcome.

I expect that it can be easy to wind up with a team composition that is doomed to failure in the final BM battle. We had 2 Tanks, 2 MMs, 1 dominator, 1 scrap, 1 blaster, and a corruptor, and we just couldn't get enough damage to beat BM's regen rate with all the running around the mission required. We gave it up after about 45 minutes of fighting her and picking up a number of deaths each from either BM damage or Nanite storms, or both. A well constructed team should be able to manage it without much trouble at all, but the wrong PUG configuration might be doomed to failure.

Thanks for the info. :-)

How do you get the character stats that list the amount of influence to show on your screen?

I have set up a mission objective of Release Captive: Longbow Crew. I have chose the Captive Grop as Lonbow (1-54) and selected Random as the Character (the intention being that I can keep the arc working for Level 1-50). I have set the hostages to Random Longbow, and their captors to a custom group I have created. When I test, the hostages appear from my Custom group as the Enemy Group and as the hostage. Is the Longbow Random Character not working?

Any clues would be appreciated.

Artists always hate critics, generally having a hard time with negative reviews. That happens in artistic endeavor that has artists and critics. An artist that let's a critic end their career probably wasn't really much of an artist in the first place. If you really love your art, then you will continue with your art because you love it. MA may not really be art, but it is about creativity, and there are critics/reviewers.

When I went through and PLAYED your arc all the way through, I finished up and sent you feedback directly.

I give you a lot of credit for being a PROMOTER, which is a different sort of thing as well. While most of us have published missions and get a few responses if we are lucky, you have over 800 ratings since issue 14 was released. I have some idea of how you got there, and I do think it involved something like spam, but still, I do think you took the time to do it. I don't think a bot was involved (don't see how it could be).

MMO's are communities, and the Devs are the final arbiters. I don't know if your mission will make it into HOF, but it may deserve to make it there by dint of your cleverness in advertising. I don't think that this was intended by the Devs, but they haven't spoken on this either. When you come right down to it, HoF isn't that big a deal, there are no monetary rewards, and I don't think you were offensive (I don't know how your communiques went with Venture).

I suspect that you didn't really play through my arc. You DID give me a 5 star rating, which is something, but I have to say it doesn't mean as much to me now since there was no commentary that went with it.

For Venture and others (I include myself in this category), we would like to make it into HOF, but we also want to make our mission arcs the best that they can be. That's why we like to read the reviews that Venture writes up.

I think that what happened here is that you got upset when an arc that you really really want to see in the HoF get shot down by possibly the most prolific critic on the boards, and you reacted emotionally. I'm not sure what your goal in posting here now is, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that you are upset at the turn of events, and you are trying to apologize by saying you will stop writing arcs.

If any of your actions offended, for me they were these: I felt that you were cleverly using spam to get what I considered a mediocre arc to HoF status. I did give you credit for understanding promotion though. I took time to really run through your arc, but I didn't feel that you took the time to really run through mine.

You compounded this when you reacted and changed your reviews of @Jake Summers arcs. That said that you were handing out 5's not because of the merits of an arc, but because of your attempt to reach HoF status with your Arc, and you changed your ratings because @Jake Summers didn't like your arc.

I have no idea what you will do next. You haven't posted much in the community so far, so it is all up to you. But I do think that this little exchange has been important for the community.

Arc ID 4447 - Attack of the Buxom Bikini Babes by @Dr. Worm

Basically fun little adventure. Some complaints below. I did find one mission annoying, so it gets downgraded for that. It is a little deeper than initially expected, but could be a lot deeper. Some might not like hitting Buxom Bikini Babes, but the title does warn you that they are attacking.

I think it tries to be deep, but misses the mark by not taking it to a truly thought provoking or amusing level. Still, seems reasonably playable.

Forum Rating: 3 Stars. - Good, but could be a whole lot better




Detailed Critique (SPOILER ALERT):

Minor typo, 100 certain should be 100% certain in intro to the first mission "Alpha Testing"

You have to rescue clients that have disappeared in the AE simulator while experiencing the Spring Break program. The writing is clean, and the contact is a lab tech. You will be inserted into the "romantic walk in the park segment" which is between the wet tee shirt contest and the mud wrestling.
I was wondering if there might be some bait and switch going on here. I know when I took a girl for a walk in the park, bikini's weren't standard attire. But it was a simulation, so who knows.



The first map is a standard outdoor map, and you have 3 blondes to rescue, 3 redheads to liberate, 3 brunettes to save. You hear brass clanking on brass in the forest, and realize it means Lord Nemesis's goons. (I probably could have suspected Clockwork too, but I have good ears it seems)

No bait and switch here though. During Holo-Spring Break, Bikini Clad Babes stay in their Bikinis even for walks in the partk. The babes have some amusing lines. There is a bug here that happens when you have a multiple rescue scenario, and the text for completing the rescue will appear in the system messages, so when you rescue each hostage it gives you the completed message. i.e. after rescuing the first Redhead Bikini Babe, I get a message saying: "That takes care of the redheads. Funny how the program organizes these girls by hair color." Of course, there were still 2 more redheads to liberate.

There was an odd glitch that I saw, which was a little odd. When I saved one of the Blonde Bikini Babes, one of the nearby soldiers opened up on her with his machine gun. I'm figuring that there is an issue with the programming, or she is really a heroine in her secret identity.

Having saved the Bikini babes, there is still no sign of the customers.

Mission 2: Bikini Beach. The intro to the mission says "Return to Bikini Beach," but from what I recall, I was just at a park. This is a nit, but I think the author was considering a few different overall mission titles.

Apparently Nemesis has broken into AE's security, but the Nemesis plot isn't as important as the clients. The techs are "virtually certain" (I'm saying that the author made this an intentional pun, but only he knows for sure).

Turns out though, I won't be going to a beach. Now I'm going into a base under the Golden Giza.

Submarine Base emap, and a boss to beat up. I can optionally get 4 allies (nice of the author to let me know that). Apparently Nemesis troops smell as well as clank like brass on brass. I'm starting to wonder how Nemesis manages to keep anything secret with the smell and the sound.

I like to check out bios, and the bikini babes I ran into first here had some amusing ones, but the redhead had a generic one. I guess the author isn't that into redheads… A customized "Lord Nemesis?!" greets me, and he apparently is the prisoner of a trio of bikini clad babes. Even his bio asks how this could be. And, having defeated them, I get the fake Nemesis aiding me, but they really aren't necessary (but I'd have to stealth by them to get to the end without them). Here we see what is probably the new villain of the piece, the Uberbabe-in-Chief. There is a text *flash* in place of the boss disappearing instead of getting to have the teleport out effect that we all really want.

Mission completion message here is nonsensical, and I found it distracting at this point.

Mission 3: Okay, the dialog has gone into gibberish. I grant you that can work in a framework when you can try to get some clues based on responses to stimuli a protagonist makes, but given the linear nature of MA I don't think it works. Here the author is starting to lose me, but it has been amusing so far, so let's see what's next. As my contact spouts more gibberish, I respond with gibberish. I'm concerned that a shark has been jumped. Based on our dialog I don't know what my character or the contact is doing. Fortunately, since MA is so linear, I don't have too…

Snakes tunnels map now, the one with the Statue of Sthenos. My mission description has a 1 by it, so I guess I am freeing a hostage or getting 1 glowie, but the gibberish . More gibberish in the mission descriptions. As predicted though, 1 glowie is found, and the mission is over. Oddly enough, this spawns an ambush. I always find this kind of weird, since spawning an ambush after mission completion always leaves the player with the option of just hitting exit. The only bikini clad babes I saw in this particular mission were the ones in the ambush. This mission was really an exercise in sticking in a lot of random villains for no particular reason. Putting the text in that was there (including custom villain descriptions) showed that the author took the time, but I don't think it was better than having nothing there at all.

At the end I am informed that my sanity has returned. Yay me. I wonder how that happened.


Upon returning to my contact, I learn that I am not really there, but I'm only a simulation of me in front of a simulation of my contact in a simulated version of an architect portal. So, now my simulation will have to save me (I guess ending its own existence, but hey, it understands).

Mission 4

Well, at least we are past the gibberish. Short story shorter, Babes went sentient, Nemesis invaded the simulation, Babes slapped Nemesis down, and now want out. Hmmm. I want out. And some bikini clad babes in the real world as my friends. And taking out Nemesis. No, wait, I'm going to Distract the babes to stop them.

Crey Lab Map. Straightforward mission, defeat the boss. In the final fight she complains about having to eternally bounce and giggle, and complains about my sentencing her to that. Look behind the curtain people. It's the AUTHOR that is out to get you. Or maybe not. Upon defeat, she claims victory, seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. Looks like they made it into the Architect Client's bodies.


Mission complete, I find out that AE's virus put the sentient bikini babes in another "deeper level" of the simulation. And they promise me that I'm real. They'll be putting the deeper level of the Bikini Babe universe on a flash drive for me to keep.


I think that the author really missed a trick here. I mean, since the character is really in a game, may as well have an addendum here from the Bikini Babes saying that my character is really just a character on some other simulation, and no more real than the Bikini Babes.

I played this one, and I feel the need to make a few comments.

I think this mission was bad... But i believe it will make it into the Hall based on the rules of HoF as I understand them. As of my search today, this mission had 882 ratings, and showed a 5 star rating. As I understand it, Hall of Fame requires over 1000+ votes, and a rating of better than 4 or 4.5 (not completely sure which). If this really is the sort of mission that warrants Hall of Fame status, I submit that achieving Hall of Fame status is more about advertising than superior mission design and/or writing.

I played this one because I got a tell from a player that went something like, "I played your arc, gave you 5 stars, please play mine and rate me with a 5 to return the favor. I replied that I would play it and give feedback and rate it. I was a little surprised to get an auto-reply that asked me to review his mission, and began to wonder what was up, but I was curious enough to see what the mission was.

For the record, I always play mystery arcs with my Dark/Dark level 50 Scrapper. He's not heavily tricked out, but he does fine in standard PVE, and he has a lot of temps just in case things get dicey. When I first started I just found that there were lots of AVs in missions, and at Invincible this character is not gonna cut it solo. (I am curious to know what difficulty Venture normally uses).

Also, for the record, the mission is called "The Perfect Brew" by @Green Dwarf.

I did get past the mito, and let me say this. Killer GM'itis continues in the tale of the Green Brew.

I had never tried to melee a Blue Mito before, and I was curious. Honestly, I was intrigued from the start, because I hadn't considered using a Mito as an enemy before. For those of you more versed in Hami raids than I (and I suspect a lot of the player base won't know what the Blue is or how to deal with it), you should not be surprised that my Dark/Dark was kissing dirt without even denting said Mito.

So, I said to myself, Self, how many range attacks DO I have? I've played long enough that I have a Nemesis Staff, Dark Wand, and two of my ancillary powers grant me ranged attacks (Dark Blast and Tenebrous Tentacles, but only one slotted). So, I stood back and played wimply blaster, but it was enough to take down the Mito without much trouble. Good luck to you real melee's out there.

In the final mission, you have to go and brew the beer, defeat a boss, and you can gain the Green Dwarf as an ally (he spawned as an EB for me). It's an outdoor map filled with CoT, so no biggie, but a little annoying to find things. I believe that the kettle doesn't spawn until you free the Green Dwarf though.

The Kettle is guarded by a CoT mage who I suspect is a custom AV, but I can't be sure about that. Fortunately, no AV's for me. But, he is also set to get a pile of miscellaneous ambushes that come rusing over the horizon (it was kinda funny to see them coming for me and the Green Dwarf). Having learned a lot from my days as a blaster, I realized that this was really meant to lead to team wipes, but running away is always an option. Heck, they would ony spawn up to LTs anyway, so my buddy the Green Dwarf would be able to smack around a LOT of LTs anyway. There were definitely D.E. and CoT there. I popped my purples and finished smaking the boss, and the mission was completed, but still they came. I few into the sky just to see how many baddies would join the fray, and I'm thinking it was 15-20 or so spawns. I did go back in to take names and kick some behinds, but it was clearly killer gm'ing, and just dumb. Not what I believe should make it into the HoF.

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Shouldn't scrappers have the same problem as tankers i.e. they hit stuff and get hit? Tho, they don't seem that they do. Is their "coolness" factor merely a function of their higher dmg? Which may be GP's point... that tankers just don't arrest anything, they merely distract.

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Defeating stuff is cool. Big damage numbers are thus cool, because they translate to defeating things faster. Big numbers are relative or course, as is time to defeat/arrest. Being mezzed is uncool (and a big problem for Blasters), a problem that tankers and scrappers do not have for the most part.

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End result? I held one person; the whole team did all the fun takedowns. My contribution? I kept one boss at bay (mathematically equal to 1/3rd agro by difficulty). And, if I get more agro than that, I have to run.

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Probably technically not true actually. Not that you would have noticed too much though. Unless the group was very spread out, odds are that your punchvoke was taking some aggro from the odd minion or two that was around the boss, which kept that minion from attacking a teammate, and let the teammate cut loose more/longer, but you certainly didn't look cool doing it. This goes to the "Active defense" things that people have talked about. In this case an "I grab the minion and beat the boss with him" scenario would have a similar effect, but look oh sooo much cooler. I'd trade in most of the whirling attacks for a 2 enemy nailer like that (not sure if others agree with that), basically weakening my damage output against large groups for the sheer coolness of tossing minions around.

But that's about secondaries.

When it comes to primaries, tanks are about NOT taking damage, and making that look cool can be done, but is tricky at best, and it's clear that the artwork isn't there for that.

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"FIRST IN.....LAST OUT"

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For the most part, this motto means "unbalanced," or "Unkillable." Granite achieves this, but now the question is do you want Granite type penalties to achieve this vision?

Okay, so I'm not sure what you are saying here. That locking down one/third of the spawn is enough for a Controller, but not enough for a Tanker? If it isn't enough for a tanker, why not?

Remember, tanker secondaries bring damage to the table, while Controllers bring more defense to a team via the "defender lite" secondaries.

Tankers simply aren't cool. It's as simple as that. What a controller does that is distinctive to a controller is visually distinctive for the most part, and then there are pets. Mind controllers get Mass Confuse, and get a good set of group lockdown tools.

Damage is inherently cool, and is REQUIRED for progress in the game. Melee is cool, tanks get that, but don't look cooler than scrappers, and do less damage than scrappers.

Tankers CAN take more than scrappers (for the most part, there are problems with Fire now when compared with scrappers that can boost hps), but is it so much more that they LOOK COOL doing it? My verdict is no. Sure, I can taunt, take the alpha, go and heal up, and come back for more but that just isn't very "Cool" from the perspective of a heroic game. Running off should not be a TANKER thing to do.

Stone tankers are the exception, and they look cool, because they are taking all the damage. Bombs, bullets, fire, negative energy, energy, and while psi might give them pause, basically nothing can stop their plodding advance. However, they SUCK for damage and mobility.

Tankers get "Aggro tools," meaning Taunt and Punchvoke (Gauntlet). Whee. I still maintain that both of these tools actually work AGAINST many tankers, because it becomes too easy to draw TOO MUCH aggro. Faceplanting is NOT cool.

Conceptually, I don't mind the idea of handling a portion of the spawn per se, but I damn well better look cool doing it.

The closets I can come to looking cool doing it is through secondaries.

Here's an idea for changing villain behavior. I want villains to become "ENRAGED" and get a little "Enraged" notification if we hold aggro from a boss or AV for a set amount of time. Call it 15 seconds for the sake of argument. An "ENRAGED" Villain will obviously only attack the Tanker, but will also suffer an accuracy debuff, because they are so angry with said tanker. And for goodness sake, if tankers are the masters of aggro management, they should have some single target tool. I'd say placate is a BETTER aggro management tool than taunt, but I also see that it isn't a "Tank-like" element.

There are plenty of options out there, but what is being implemented is not very interesting.

But the mission went as he expected it to play out.

For all I know, he had a blast doing that. He didn't say.

You were talking about design. The AT worked as he envisioned it.

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How would he feel if he had to play that character for 3 weeks straight, mission after mission. Would he get tired of how it played, or would he keep enjoying it? We don't know because, so far as I know, he has not tried any such thing.


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What you are now arguing is that the design may in fact be flawed, which is a different thing.

The design spec is right there though.

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Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.

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He emphasized it

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As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.

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That last sentence was key to me, and this has led me to the "Robin the Boy Wonder" school of tanking. "THE TEAM WILL COME TO THE TANKER'S AID" I am the distraction, allowing the real heroes in the group to go and take the villains down. Sure, robin can handles basic stuff alone, but when it comes to the big guys, well, he's there to be the monkey wrench.

I've gone to the medicine pool, since it was clear I needed healing, and couldn't always count on a healer being around. I take the alpha, move so that L.O.S. is blocked, heal up, and then taunt away where it seems most needed, or use heal other if I think I can get away with it. As in invuln tank I can often stand up to more, if things are primarily S/L. But if they aren't, and I don't have a defender around to bump me up, well, you have to know your limits.

Is this a good enough role for an AT, or am I playing in a fashion that isn't optimal, I don't know. For me it's sort of an experiment.

However, my other characters all feel a lot more "Super."

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Let's remember that Statesman and the other devs (e.g. Geko, Castle) can tell you better than any player can, how the game is designed to work -- that is, how they intend it to play. They can even tell you about how it works under their test conditions, because I'm sure they've tested it.


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IF we accept this, then Invulnerability is fine. We have Statesman's view of acceptable tanking in his own words from an in game experience. Just to remind you

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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.

Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.

I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...

Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster

We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.

End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.

Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.


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And there you have the now oft repeated story of Statesman's Tanking. From the tone of it, he is perfectly happy with the way he performed his tanking duties.

So far, not a single post that I have seen has said, "Yup, that sounds about right. That's a pretty good tanking example."

IF we accepted this as the "Tanker Standard" then I say we just eliminate the AT, because that level of performance is so low that the AT is simply an xp leech. Not only that, a lot more nerfing has to be done to actually get tankers to perform at such a low level.

Honestly, I'm curious if any of the devs have posted their specific experiences playing any other AT, and how close it matched player expectations for the AT.

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And I'm now at the AV every other mission level, so going alone, not an option any more unless I leave and fill up on insp. multiple times. I enjoyed having a place, front line protecting everyone else, but the fun factor just isn't there now that I need just as many buffs as the squishies. I feel like I'm letting everyone down when it's me yelling "RUN". No real solution, just another opinion that doesn't seem to effect the Dev's.

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I can see where the fun factor is gone, and that can make the final push to 50 pretty tedious, but I have to say that at least on Triumph, I am easily able to fill up an A.V. mish by just sending tells to appropriate characters. It takes a little planning, because you will likely need appropriate SK'ing and such, BUT from what I've seen, the words "A.V. Mission" are like catnip for heroes. It's ALWAYS easy for me to find some level 50's that are willing to exemp down to take on an AV mission, but again, the real trick is finding the right level mix so exemps and sk's work out.

As for feeling a lack of fun when playing the mish, that is another matter entirely.

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(Annoying person you can't kill despite how hard you try)

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I thought this one was always saying "I'm not touching you."

Must save thread, keep Statesman example of "Tanking" for reference...

The point of the game of course it to have fun. This isn't about making the world a better place, world hunger, peace, or democracy.

I do have this sense that this is like the "Death March of the Tankers," however, if nothing else, it sounds like it will bring together people that actually care about the game, and that is really the point. If you need/want another character in the mix, I have a level 32 (will likely be 33 by the time you get this going) Stone/Ice Tank, specced for taunt-bot/aggro magnet (no hasten though, an experiment of sorts). I have a variety of characters over the level range in question (50 Stone/Mace, 39 Mind/Rad, 38 Nrg/Dev, 42 Dark/Dark), so if any of them can help in testing, keep them in mind.

Me, I'll be there for the fun of it, and if it is the Tanker's epitaph, at least I can say I was there to see it (although I suspect that Stone/X will still remain viable for taking the hits).

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Just a thought though, just to play Dev's Advocate for a moment.

Tanker checklist

Best Self-defense Caps? check
Best Aggro Tools? check
Most Hit Points? check
'Moderate' Damage? check

Okay, done, moving on...

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I don't think this checklist has even been met.

Best Caps? Yes. Best self buffing? How does Dark compare? How do Kheldians compare?

Best Aggro Tools? Taunt and Gauntlet. I actually question if that is better at drawing aggro than blaster AOE attacks. It does remain true that Blasters wish to avoid aggro, and taunt of course is AOE auto-hit, so a powerful tool, has anyone REALLY tested this?

Moderate Damage? I don't think we currently out-damage controllers, but again I might be wrong on that.

Once upon a time, Statesman said that the Tank's role was to take damage. Given the state of defenses now, it might be time to increase a Tanker's hp.

Just as an aside, does anyone else get bothered when they see Freakshow Tanks? They just seem to be so much more aptly named, especially now.

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Since other than Regen and Dark they are using the same numbers but lower than Tanks no Scrapper is going to be able to deal with damage better.

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You also conveniently forget to add in the value of the defensive strikes that add to def for scrappers in their primaries. Tanks do not get such attacks in their secondaries.

Having said that, if Tanks are meant to be defensive oriented scranks, they could add to the secondaries extra res or def, or more debuffs to make a tanker more powerful defensively through attacking.

Of course, they could make it a bar, like the Rage bar, call it the "Berserker Bar" or some such, so the more tank fights, the tougher they get.

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One thing I've only heard mentioned once or twice (and one of those times by Statesman) is the role of the Monitor.

What does any kind of healing defender, controller or corrupter do? They monitor the condition of their teammates at all times and make sure that their health does not drop below a certain point.

They additionally, and rightly so, bring more to the table than that. Certainly, they are much more than healers, even if they're mistakenly seen that way.

Perhaps one possible new role of the tank is to provide a constant stream of damage while monitoring the condition of the rest of the team and handing out the taunts that are required to keep them safe?


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My Empathy/Rad is one of my busiest and most demanding characters to play. The role of "monitor" can be entertaining, but currently tank powersets simply don't lend themselves to that. If you see that someone is in trouble (squishy or not), the only tool available to assist is Taunt (which is a secondary for that matter). Gauntlet is also based off of secondaries.

If you want to be a monitor given the tank sets, your only options are to try and target through another player, or hit the enemies that are causing the other player grief to invoke gauntlet. Given the way combat actually works, that is can be very hit and miss, making the monitor role tenuous at best for a tanker.

Defensive primary, melee secondary. Primaries don't contribute more than a defenders to defensive capabilities, and secondaries damage output is generally so much lower than a melee primary that it is marginal, especially in a game that is all about doing damage.

Finding a role for the character here outside of meatshield is going to be difficult at best. If the Statesman example is the expectation of contribution, then I expect that the AT will be marginalized once the player base can observe tha actual contribution made by tankers at higher levels. However, since the game itself is such a moving target, each issue seems to bring these sorts of questions up for somebody anyway.

The testing should be informative if nothing else. We'll see if Cryptic pays much attention. We did get Jack's attention once here.

/demorecord, while not gospel since it can be hacked, is a good tool for reviewing what really happened, and letting other sufficiently geeky folks figure it out too.

I agree that what should be tested here is team contribution, not meatshield capability. Does tanker damage help much or not? While we may "think" we know the answer to be "No," we may be surprised.

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These debates sound like cut-and-paste versions of the old Controller concerns that they were unnecessary because of the Tankers ability to control things, the arguments that got Taunt and Provoke to briefly require accuracy enhancements to get them to land.

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Those controller concerns were spot on. How can you tell?

How common was a total team wipeout, except for the tanker, and then the tanker being last man standing would wait for the team to come back from the hospital, in the middle of the enemies being attacked?

While cool when it happened, it really should never have happened.

If you would target through the tanker, the controller had no particular use for their control. There would be damage mitigation that a tanker didn't need, and so controllers were down to their damage abilities or second rate defender status.

The current tanker dilemma is a little different. Tanker damage is certainly overshadowed vastly. Tankers can draw aggro that a controller isn't mitigating, but needs a fair amount of support to survive said aggro. They also have little choice but to draw aggro (an option controllers have). Tankers are self buffing, but their buffs are weaker than Defenders, and don't affect multiple characters (defenders can't affect themselves).

Pretty much any character can draw aggro. With enough buffing, any character can generally tank (draw aggro and stand and take damage). A tank should be able to perform their function AT LEAST as well as a buffed scrapper, since a buffed tanker can NOT deal out damage as well as a buffed scrapper. This is most true in the high end game, but the more I read from the devs, the more it seems to me that they believe the high end game is simply not a priority.

You do realize that Stone took it in the chops pre 32 as well, right? The fact tht they have a level 32 power that makes them FAR more survivable.

I think that one of the big problems is that the real weaknesses of non-Granite tanks shows up significantly in higher level play (level 30+, and definitely level 40+). Obviousy the fewer powers you have, the more your character is defined by inherents.

As more powers become available and the AT's become more defined as to what they DO and can't do, the non-granite tank simply doesn't excel at much of anything.

In the past, defense with minimal offense can lead to a win, albeit a slow one. PVP games are never built that way, because if they were, no one would attack. Thus I believe that PVP has been a large contributing factor to the current state of the Tanker.

These are fairly dark days in Tanker Town, and I don't think that non-Granite really contributes anything unique or valuable in the higher end game. I don't think they are so "bad" as to actually slow things down, except inasmuch as they take a slot that another character could use to speed things up.

I do believe that tanks will be reviewed again, and changed again, and respecs will be needed again, but that's pretty much par for the course now.

Time will tell though.